Return of the jedi force sub Halo 3

[Lord Vespasian]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

Three go in. Five come out.

Nope, it's four going in. You can't see them all at the same time since Chewie's in the way, but when the group stops halfway in, you can see one of the two commandos behind Chewie is holding the gun left-handed (more accurately, you can see the gun), whereas the commando we see a few seconds later walking behind Chewie is right handed.

And I can prove that you're wrong - by pointing to the fact that C-3P0 can see the bunker from where he's standing.

Excepting, of course, that it's physically impossible to see the bunker, as I've already shown.

Yes, I just used the word prove. That means that what I'm saying is true, in no uncertain terms.

That's nice. I'm saying you're wrong. That means you're wrong, in no uncertain terms.

Not only does this have nothing to do with what I just pointed out, but it's also somewhat idiotic. C-3P0 isn't even trying to hide. He's not crouching (can he even do that), he's not positioned himself in some bush where visual cover is better. He's just standing there a short range from the bunker. And nobody spots him until he comes out.

So what? He's about twenty or more meters away from the bunker concealed by, at the very least, massive redwoods and waist-high vegitation. And since he's not in visual range of the bunker....

If the Imperials really had 8000 plus guys hiding somewhere else in the bunker - then they were too stupid to come out and fight the remaining rebels and Ewoks, and instead let them blow up the bunker.

Or, like I already said, they don't abandon their posts without being ordered to do so. This is really basic stuff, and even you should be able to figure it out. If ODST is stupid enough to resist the initial capture attempt, and aren't simply mowed down immediately, the Imperials will just send more of their garrison to take them out.

They're not going to be captured. As I've already detailed.

Ok, then they're simply mowed down as a numerically larger force surrounds them at close-quarters. In their last moments before they're annihalated by the Imperial fleet, the Rebels wonder why they sent such a sucktastic squad down to sabotage the shield generator.

By being far more competent and capable then stormtroopers obviously. Fighting inside the bunker will be a worse option for the stormtroopers then fighting outside - and I've outlined why already.

Oh right, I forgot you're an ODST wanker.

So he's able to hit people a few dozen meters away? This almost makes him mediocre.

It's always fun watching you flail about like this.

And the best part is - the guys he's hitting aren't moving.

Some are. The first confirmed hit he scores is against a stormtrooper running perpendicular to him through waist-high vegitation. He also hits the stormtrooper that pegs R2 between the eyes.

By the way, he kills 4, not 6.

[l33telboi]

I think I'll have to set up another summary with you, because it seems I'm wearing out the keyboard again by rehashing what's been said a thousand times already. And you keep ignoring arguments while stating your own position as fact.

Originally Posted by Lord Vespasian

Nope, it's four going in.

Three.

Excepting, of course, that it's physically impossible to see the bunker, as I've already shown.

Fact: C-3P0 can see the bunker. This much is shown in the movie so it's pointless to argue against it.

You speculate that he can't because of his position, but in truth you have no idea. You earlier tried to use a misleading pic to support your position, but I then pointed out that it was in fact misleading, and not an accurate depiction of where C-3P0 was standing at the time he saw the bunker. Which means that the remaining evidence you have is... nothing. Yet you don't seem to understand that this means your argument is forfeit until you can come up with some new evidence.

And I repeat what's been said a billion times but doesn't seem to register - This makes absolutely no difference. Whether he has a line of sight to the bunker or not does not change the fact that he's still close to it and avoided detection. What makes it worse is that he's a bright golden in cover, doesn't seem to mind being loud, and isn't even trying to take cover.

So what? He's about twenty or more meters away from the bunker concealed by, at the very least, massive redwoods and waist-high vegitation.

I already proved that that position is not where he's standing when he spots the ambush. There's no point in repeating yourself unless you can come up with something new.

Or, like I already said, they don't abandon their posts without being ordered to do so.

You're saying that as if it was fact, but in truth you have absolutely no evidence for it. There's not even any evidence that there even are 8000+ people at the bunker. And even if there were, the reason why they didn't attack the Ewoks and rebels is unknown. And we have no reason to assume they'd change this with the ODST.

Basically the argument is that these 8000+ troops are hiding in the bunker. And since they're not ordered to engage the forces that just killed all the Imperials, they're just standing around twiddling their thumbs and watching the rebels set their charges and then blow up the bunker.

Well, if they're that dumb - then they'll be just as dumb in the ODST scenario.

If ODST is stupid enough to resist the initial capture attempt, and aren't simply mowed down immediately, the Imperials will just send more of their garrison to take them out.

No, they will not. This much is proven in the movie where it's explicitly shown that they don't send more people to help out - even after their entire assaulting force had been subdued.

Ok, then they're simply mowed down as a numerically larger force surrounds them at close-quarters.

Nope. That'd require the stormtroopers to be halfway decent combatants.

Oh right, I forgot you're an ODST wanker.

Not two weeks ago I pissed off every single ODST fanboy on this forum by suggesting that there's nothing special about them. That makes these repeated 'wanker' bits quite laughable. See, the problem isn't that the ODST are mega-competent (you should've figured this out when I said: "If we assume they're as good as a Finnish conscript after basic training"). The problem is that the stormtroopers are just that incompetent. We've seen people do fighting retreats from them on numerous occasions and they always get away unscathed, killing large numbers of stormtroopers as they do. And those people are far worse armed and trained then the ODST. Ergo - we must assume the ODST will do better.

In the battle of Endor, you see this when Han and Leia hide at the bunker entrance for several minutes. They're able to kill multiple stormtroopers despite the fact that they're surrounded and outgunned. Han isn't even trying to shoot at them most of the time and he still manages to off five of them.

It's always fun watching you flail about like this.

Just stating the facts: If Han is able to massacre stormtroopers by virtue of being able to hit them from a few dozen meters out with a weapon such as a pistol - then the ODST will be superior by far.

By the way, he kills 4, not 6.

6. 5 of those after the capture.

[Lord Vespasian]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

Three.

Nope, it's four.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IbdzV4pqII

Look at 7:27. There's two visible commandos, plus the barrel of a left-handed commando's gun between the right-most commando and Chewie. Then at 7:30, we see a right-handed commando.

I'll see if I can find some better screencaps than what can be gotten off youtube if you're still clinging to three.

Fact: C-3P0 can see the bunker. This much is shown in the movie so it's pointless to argue against it.

Give it up already. You've seen the screenshots. There's no way he could have seen the bunker.

Though I do like how you assume "Oh my, they'll be captured!" means "I can see the bunker," in spite of screenshots making it clear to anyone to see that you're wrong.

And I repeat what's been said a billion times but doesn't seem to register - This makes absolutely no difference. Whether he has a line of sight to the bunker or not does not change the fact that he's still close to it and avoided detection. What makes it worse is that he's a bright golden in cover, doesn't seem to mind being loud, and isn't even trying to take cover.

And this is supposed to mean something?

I already proved that that position is not where he's standing when he spots the ambush. There's no point in repeating yourself unless you can come up with something new.

Why do I need to come up with something new? You think he has a LOS with the bunker. I've shown that you're wrong.

Basically the argument is that these 8000+ troops are hiding in the bunker.

They're somewhere, at least. The base is far larger than what we've seen, given that the unseen front entrance is "heavily guarded," the fact that they send "two squads" as reinforcements when they think they've won, and that half the soldiers that actually capture Han's team come from deeper inside the facility. Plus the fact that it's a stormtrooper legion.

And since they're not ordered to engage the forces that just killed all the Imperials, they're just standing around twiddling their thumbs and watching the rebels set their charges and then blow up the bunker.

Who said anything about watching? So far as they know, they've won the battle. If the Rebel team would surprise the officers operating that control room the first time, what's stopping them from doing it a second time?

No. Because they didn't do that in the movie either, even after the Ewok's had attacked.

You're confused. I'm talking about the intial capture inside the facility. The Rebels didn't put up a fight, what with being surrounded and outnumbered by the Imperials. If ODST is stupid enough to try fighting, the Imperials will open fire. If they're not all killed with incredible ease, the Imperials will just send more of their 8000+ garrison to wipe them out.

Nope. That'd require the stormtroopers to be halfway decent combatants.

You're getting desperate now, I see.

Not two weeks ago I pissed off every single ODST fanboy on this forum by suggesting that there's nothing special about them. That makes these repeated 'wanker' bits quite laughable. See, the problem isn't that the ODST are mega-competent (you should've figured this out when I said: "If we assume they're as good as a finnish conscript after basic training"). The problem is that the stormtroopers are just that incompetent.

Fine. Troll, then. It doesn't make much difference to me.

Just stating the facts: If Han is able to massacre stormtroopers by virtue of being able to hit them from a few dozen meters out with a weapon such as a pistol - then the ODST will be superior by far.

Or they'll get mowed down by vastly superior numbers and soldiers with better weapons and armor their guns suck against.

6.

Nope, four. I didn't realize that you couldn't count, either.

Though, hilariously enough, if we go by your imaginary count, Han's got an 86% accuracy rate, since we only see him shoot seven times.

[l33telboi]

Summary posts it is, then.

Originally Posted by Lord Vespasian

I'll see if I can find some better screencaps than what can be gotten off youtube if you're still clinging to three.

Until you do - it's three. And I have a far better quality version of that vid on my HD.


Re: C-3P0 and his position relative to the bunker

Give it up already. You've seen the screenshots. There's no way he could have seen the bunker.

There is nothing in that screenshot that would verify what you just said. I've pointed out that the screenshot you provided is misleading, because C-3P0 in that pic is not standing where he is when he notices the ambush on the bunker.

And this is supposed to mean something?

It means that an ODST in the same situation as the droid would be much better off, and since C-3P0 avoided detection - so would he. You know, which has been my entire point for the last fifty-billion pages.

Originally Posted by Summary

Fact: C-3P0 can see the bunker. This much is shown in the movie so it's pointless to argue against it.

You speculate that he can't because of his position, but in truth you have no way of verifying that claim. You earlier tried to use a misleading pic to support your position, but I then pointed out that it was in fact misleading, and not an accurate depiction of where C-3P0 was standing at the time he saw the bunker. Which means that the remaining evidence you have is... nothing. Yet you don't seem to understand that this means your argument is forfeit until you can come up with some new evidence.

And I repeat what's been said a billion times but doesn't seem to register - This makes absolutely no difference. Whether he has a line of sight to the bunker or not does not change the fact that he's still close to it and avoided detection. What makes it worse is that he's a bright golden in cover, doesn't seem to mind being loud, and isn't even trying to take cover. This means that an ODST in the same position would be much better off, and since C-3P0 avoided detection - so would he.

Re: The 8000 stormtroopers that were oddly missing from the battle

Who said anything about watching? So far as they know, they've won the battle.

The rebels running around inside the bunker setting up charges didn't clue them in to the fact that they hadn't won? The fact that everyone on the outside is captured or killed didn't tip them off to the fact that something is off?

If they're not all killed with incredible ease, the Imperials will just send more of their 8000+ garrison to wipe them out.

If that would've been an option then they would've used those reinforcements in the movie - when the Ewoks attack and the rebels manage to get lose. But they didn't. Thus we have no reason to assume they'll do so in this scenario either.

Originally Posted by Summary

The claim is that these 8000 stormtroopers that were supposedly at the bunker would attack the ODST, even though they never got involved in the battle in the movie. My stance is that we have no reason to assume so. If there were 8000 soldiers at the bunker then they chose not to get involved for one reason or another. They didn't do so when the rebels escaped and the bunker came under attack from Ewoks. Even when rebels were running around inside planting explosive charges they chose not to act. Thus - there's no reason to assume they'll do anything different in this scenario.

Vespasian seems to think that if the ODST resist they will attack. That's a baseless assumption. And quite obviously rather illogical considering they chose not to attack when the rebels and Ewoks fought back.

Re: Stromtrooper competence

You're getting desperate now, I see.

Just saying that stormtroopers are incompetent compared to the ODST. Most already know this as fact. Most already know that stormtroopers are incompetent when compared with... well, everything.

If you want, we can go into specifics.

Or they'll get mowed down by vastly superior numbers and soldiers with better weapons and armor their guns suck against.

Better weapons? In some ways, sure, in other ways not. The blasters have lower rates of fire and lower projectile velocity. They're also less accurate, though that might be an issue with the stormtroopers and not the weapons. Better armor? Hardly. The ODST armor is supposed to be effective against their own weapons and it can also take some pretty decent physical impacts without much trouble (and by this I mean impacts that send the ODST flying). In contrast - stormtrooper armor can be penetrated by spears and the physical impacts from the stones were enough to knock them cold or kill them (despite not sending them through the air).

Though, hilariously enough, if we go by your imaginary count, Han's got an 86% accuracy rate, since we only see him shoot seven times.

Pity he's not a stormtrooper, eh?

Originally Posted by Summary

The argument is simple: I'm claiming that the difference in competence between ODST and stormtroopers will allow them to fight of stormtroopers if inside the bunker. The reasoning behind this is based on the fact that we've seen Stormtroopers in hallway battles before, and trying to prevent people from escaping, and their showings have been... shall we say, less then stellar.

If need be we can go into details. But most already know this as fact.

Another argument was in regards to equipment, with the claim being that the weapons and armor on the stormtroopers was better. In some ways that's true, sure, in other ways, not so much. The blasters have lower rates of fire and lower projectile velocity. They're also less accurate, though that might be an issue with the stormtroopers and not the weapons. They have more armor and are more powerful (on higher settings) though. Better armor? Hardly. The ODST armor is supposed to be effective against their own weapons and it can also take some pretty decent physical impacts without much trouble (and by this I mean impacts that send the ODST flying). In contrast - stormtrooper armor can be penetrated by spears and the physical impacts from the stones were enough to knock them cold or kill them (despite not sending them through the air).

In addition to this the ODST are equipped with a lot more then just their standard weapon. Grenades, demolition packs, spartan laser, sniper rifle, etc. The grenades being particularly problematic for the stormies in close quarters combat, considering they like to form clumps.

I’m retiring for the night, and I have work tomorrow again, but after that I’ll no doubt be able to answer whatever else you might come up with.

[Lord Vespasian]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

Until you do - it's three. And I have a far better quality version of that vid on my HD.

Actually, you can see all four commandos at the same time, but photobucket's decided to resize my screencaps for fuck know's what reason, so I'll have to make due with this.



Left-handed commando's gun in the red circle.



Right-handed commando.

There is nothing in that screenshot that would verify what you just said. I've pointed out that the screenshot you provided is misleading, because C-3P0 in that pic is not standing where he is when he notices the ambush on the bunker.

And as I've pointed out, it's ridiculous to think that the bunker will be visible even further away from a spot that you can't see the bunker from.

It means that an ODST in the same situation as the droid would be much better off, and since C-3P0 avoided detection - so would he. You know, which has been my entire point for the last fifty-billion pages.

So, what, ODST's going to leave a guy sitting outside where he'll be able to do jack shit?

The rebels running around inside the bunker setting up charges didn't clue them in to the fact that they hadn't won?

Who said anything about the Rebels "running around"? They snuck their way into the control room the first time, they can do so again, even more effectively since the Imperials aren't lying in wait for them.

The fact that everyone on the outside is captured or killed didn't tip them off to the fact that something is off?

Who said it didn't? We see all of 5 seconds of the Rebels planting charges.

If that would've been an option then they would've used those reinforcements in the movie

Except they do. You know, when Han requests reinforcements, and they send troops out?

when the Ewoks attack and the rebels manage to get lose. But they didn't.

That's a nice false dilemma you've concocted there.

Just saying that stormtroopers are incompetent compared to the ODST. Most already know this as fact. Most already know that stormtroopers are incompetent when compared with... well, everything.

They're no less competent than trademark Evil Minions going up against character-shielded protagonists. The same assinine reasoning can be applied to Covenant, Jaffa, redshirts, Cobra, Decepticons, etc etc etc. It's a worthless non-answer, one I seem to recall you admitting awhile back.

Better armor? Hardly. The ODST armor is supposed to be effective against their own weapons and it can also take some pretty decent physical impacts without much trouble (and by this I mean impacts that send the ODST flying). In contrast - stormtrooper armor can be penetrated by spears and the physical impacts from the stones were enough to knock them cold or kill them (despite not sending them through the air).

I didn't say it was "better armor," I said it was "armor their weapons suck against." Stormtrooper armor is effective at stopping bullets, which basically puts ODST up shit creek for the OP's first scenario.


Fact is, ODST is outnumbered at least 12 to 1, against an enemy equipped with armor their guns won't work well against, and who know they're coming. The only way they're going to complete their mission is by committing suicide with the det charges after they're allowed into the bunker.

[Leo1]

Three of those five points are strawmen. Not to mention that the majority are trying to shift the burden of proof. Now ask yourself – if Leo has to resort to strawmen when he’s trying to summarize his arguments, what does that tell you about how valid his claims are? There’s a reason people resort to logical fallacies. And the reason is because they don’t have valid arguments left.

I've put explicit challenges to you and you are calling only some of them 'strawmen' without even specifying how they even are strawmen, but answering none at all.

In particular, you have made the explicit claim about the chronology of the film, in vague terms, asserting it would've taken "a lot of time". If you think it took a lot of time, you have to prove it, and then explain how it can possibly make sense. So far, you have done neither.

Answer the challenge. I'm tired of your dishonest, desperation-laden BS. You don't get to get up on your soapbox full of crap without actually answering what's put to you by simply mewling 'strawman'. As will be seen, you don't even know what a strawman is - you think whenever your opponent says something you don't like, it must be one.

Let's deal with your soapbox now:-

What we have here is some of the most exquisite fanboy idiocy I’ve seen in a long time, and it goes a little like this: Leo doesn’t want the guys from his pet franchise to lose, so what he does is he uses all unknowns in the battle of Endor as excuses to shoehorn in baseless assumptions that would lead his favored side to victory.

You are projecting mightily. It is in fact you who have been flogging the unknowns about this fight so your fanboy wank about the ODSTs can pass muster - and I have been turning it around on you.

So far, you have been unable to deal with this simple fact, or even to comprehend it is happening.

It is in fact, quite priceless. Here, allow me to demonstrate:-

Originally Posted by l33telboi on his soapbox

We don’t know how the rebels on the outside were captured, since neither the movie or novel says nothing about it, so Leo uses this an excuse to say that they were obviously captured by jamming their comlinks first and then using lifesigns detectors to point them out, because that would be to his advantage in this debate. But what he’s saying is wholly without evidence, there isn’t even the slightest, or even the most miniscule indication that lifesigns-detectors were used.

So how can you insist the ODSTs won't be caught, if you don't know how the Rebels were captured.

You can't, can you? But you insist it is so anyway.

A classic example of shifting the burden of proof, complete with a starwman. I’ve said it would be logical to assume they were the ones who did it – because they were the only ones who were on the outside at the moment the ambush was sprung. I can’t prove it, of course, but all the evidence lies in my favor. The solution who has the most evidence speaking for it is also the most likely one to be correct. You on the other hand maintain that it was the scout troopers who did so – you have no evidence, and now I’ve finally gotten you to admit that you can’t prove what you’re saying. The argument can therefore be tossed out, considering this started with you saying that it was scout troopers and scout troopers alone who did it.

LOL what? "All the evidence lies in your favour?" What evidence? Some guys running inside the bunker? With no Rebel troops present? That's your evidence? Don't you think if they were the ones who caught them, the Rebels would be visible?

To the extent where you can assume the Ewok is far superior to a combatant used to spot incoming threats and actually used to combat situations like this? That’s something you can’t claim.

It is in fact something I can claim, because I have common sense and reasoning skills. Ewoks are not human. Ewoks are experienced hunter gathererers, and intimately familiar with their own forest. Leia is neither a hunter gatherer, a native of that forest, and she is an entirely different species.

Yourimplication that Ewoks can be assumed to have the same quality of senses as a human being simply because they have eyes, nose and ears is exactly the same as arguing that a human has the same sense of smell as a fucking dog.

The pure reason of my claim is amply demonstrated by what was observed in the film:-

Reassured, Wicket lowers his spear and climbs back on the log,
coming to investigate the helmet. Suddenly his ears perk up and
he begins to sniff the air. He looks around warily, whispering
some Ewokese warning to Leia.

LEIA
What is it?

At no point does Leia notice what Wicket notices, and as I've pointed out many times- and which you have continuously ignored - there is nothing she could've noticed.

My point remains: The one example that you’re using to say that the scout troopers can magically nullify their bright white suits in a forested terrain actually involves one of two individuals spotting aforementioned scout trooper.

If you hear a suspicious sound or smell a suspicious smell, you haven't "spotted" anything.

It is surprising. Or is there perhaps some real-world equivalent to what happened there that you could point out in support of your claim that it wasn’t surprising? Of course not. For someone to reach the rank of general it would take time (more then twenty years at a minimum). Han might’ve been a good captain – but that doesn’t make it any less strange that he was promoted to the rank of general over night, by a faction that has been fighting the establishment he served when he got all his medals and his rank.

The conclusion then is that the Rebellion doesn’t quite follow the modern system when it comes to ranks and who they appoint to do what.

Which has precisely fuck all to do with your assumption that Leia can be assumed to have no military training, and never did.

Another classic example of shifting the burden of proof. You’re the one claiming she has military training, that means you’re the one who has to find the proof for it. All I’ve done is point out that she has no rank, and we’ve never heard of her receiving any military training whatsoever, that’s why it would be a baseless thing to assume she has any.

I already have proven it. That she has no formal rank is irrelevant. You have instead continued to assume it is reasonable to say that a woman who fights in battles and commands troops in concert with obvious combat veterans is a civilian with no training.

That is simply moronic.

Strawman. I’ve said we don’t know what they’re doing and simply pointing out that your assumption that they’re acting as sentries is unfounded, since you have no evidence of it. Truth is - they could’ve been doing a million and one things, but you’re assuming they stood sentry because that serves your goals in this thread.

No, it's not a strawman, it's responding to exactly what you bloody said. Learn the definition of a strawman before you throw the term around unjustifiably anymore.

Specify what these "million and one things" could've been, please.

The sentry could be taken by surprise – but if it was a proper sentry in that situation, then the guy keeping an eye on the sentry would be alerted. The sentry should always be in line-of-sight of someone else, especially when guarding a room like that.

And if both sentries are taken at once? Moving on.

Then you’ve effectively conceded the point that those Imperials came from the inside. Like I said earlier: The least you could do is try to keep your argument concise.

When was this an argument? And where did I make any positive or negative claim about where this small group came from?

Unconfirmed speculation with no evidence. The forces could’ve always been outside as well, which I’ve pointed out. As well as the fact that we can confirm that part of that force actually are hiding outside.

What difference does that make to anything?

I think the above is enough to prove that the supposed military expertise you have is about as non-existent as can be. If a group of soldiers are inside a building where they know there are hostiles as well, there are a few simple procedures that needs to be followed. Standard procedures, I might add. One, quickly peer around corner to see if the it’s empty, or if, y’know, there’s a guy with a gun standing there. Do not rush blindly down the corridor without visually checking it first. If you do the latter then you’re more incompetent then untrained civilians with some common sense (and oddly enough stormtroopers actually do this a number of times though).

Is it your argument now that soldiers being ambushed and under attack by a numerically superior hostile force have the leisure to engage in (what you allege) are 'simple procedures' without interference by what the hostile force is doing?

Further, the only person alleging military expertise here is you, and it's naive as all hell - you assume 100% competence and composure from the ODSTs when no force in the history of the world can act without interference from the actions of the enemy. In real battles, mistakes happen. Nerves get frayed. Corners are cut. Risks are taken. People are killed.

In short, grow up.

A proper machinegun emplacement in a bunker has nothing in common with what you’re suggesting. First off, they’d be static and the bunker would actually be designed with them in mind. The machinegun is supposed to be behind a thick and solid wall. This wall is there to protect the gun and the user from grenades and enemy fire. There’d be as small a slit as possible to shoot through. The corridor leading up to the machinegun would also be designed so that the enemy has to come down it in order to breach the bunker.

None of that is true for what you’re suggesting. You’re literally saying that someone should just set up a machinegun in the middle of a corridor. Fact is that if someone was stupid enough to do that – then they’d have a blown up machinegun and operator if the enemy has even the least bit of common sense.

When you get around to ceasing to assume that said E-Web will just be sitting in the middle of a corridor with no cover, do let me know.

The blast charges in the game were able to demolish a sturdy and large bridge, and later we see a damn big building being blown sky-high*. There’s every reason to believe that they’d do the trick.

That's irrelevant. Bridges have structural weaknesses that demolition charges can exploit. Also, bridge structural supports != reinforced bunker blast door.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said. It’s nothing but a transparent attempt at trying to evade a point brought up.

ROFL. No, it's a preamble to me rebutting your nonsense about Endor chronology.

n other words – you have fuck all in defense of your argument, and so you chose to throw out something as pathetic as ‘l33telboi channels Darkstar’.

How do you figure, when I proceed to point out exactly what's wrong with your argument?

And your attempts to rehabilitate Darkstar's non-existent reputation aside, it's perfectly valid to point out when you are channeling the a variation of the most notorious argument of a most notorious fuckwit. Moving on.

I based my assumptions on the time it would take for Wicket to do everything he did. Run back to camp, inform the camp, rally the camp, and construct traps. If the spacebattle somehow changes this, then you’re free to say why.

I already did. You did not deign to respond, nor detail your claim as I challenged you to. In particular, I said the following:-

* There is no reason to believe Wicket had to go all the way back to his village.
* There is no reason to believe the tribe had to spend any time at all 'deciding what to do' - the Rebels were part of their tribe, and they were in danger.

You didn't respond, so concession accepted.

Yeah, sure, they had those massive log traps, catapults and tree-trunk landslides prepared for hunting.

False dilemma. The Ewoks had many different types of traps, such as pits with spikes, which would be perfect for hunting. Moving on.

You’ve got to be kidding me. So, where’s the evidence that these weapons were designed to fight Gorax? Let me guess, there is none.

The Gorax is an enemy of the Ewoks and lives on the same planet nearby. That is the evidence.

There’s not even a mention of Gorax in the novelization.

It's in the EU and therefore is evidence. Suck it. Further, you think I give a fuck about you having the gall to appeal to the novelization when you're proposing a chronology that flies in the face of the entire fucking film, novel and radio play?

That’s not mentioning that the Gorax are too large for those swinging-log traps to be designed to take them out.

I don't see why not. They could easily injure him.

Yeah, because when you go to war with another tribe, you absolutely positively need two swinging wooden trunks crashing into each other in mid-air.

False dilemma. Refer to catapults and gliders in that regard.

Oh, and I like it how you just left out this part of my quote, Mr Dishonest:-

"or a defence they had already set up against the defilers of their forest (i.e. the Imperials)"

We can assume you have no so-called rebuttal against this, so concession accepted.

And by ‘stayed by the entrance’ you naturally mean that they all clumped together, exposing more then their heads and shoulder to the enemy, sure.

Rubbish. They weren't all clumped together at all, and only two men exposed themselves, getting shot whilst trying to get in a position near the centre of the hallway, using the stairwell for cover. The rest are behind cover and you can only see their heads for the most part. Your trite nonsense is thus debunked.

Should it surprise us then that in this situation Han, Leia, Luke and Chewie were actually able to kill a number of those stormtroopers? Hardly. Now picture someone with a cool head, a decent weapon and decent aim in the same situation – absolute murder. Now picture someone with a grenade in the same situation – every single stormtrooper in the room dead. Instantly.

Unsubstantiated claim. I didn't know Stormtroopers were in the habit of just standing there whilst grenades explode. Also, I'd love to know why they'd assume anyone is going to throw a grenade over such a long distance. I guess they're a pitcher for the Yankees.

Let’s just say that I find it hard to believe that every single trooper were somehow informed of the rebels and that they should be allowed to escape. The ‘they let us go’ more likely means that there weren’t all that many TIEs scrambled to take down the escaping Falcon.

LOL right, so they let their Stormtroopers go on believing they should shoot their only ticket to Yavin on sight. That's just brilliant!

Then they would already have scattered. Making the job all that much easier. Did you miss the entire point of the sniping? To force the troops in front of the door take cover and take up position further from the bunker door?

False dilemma. Why the fuck would they scatter? There's no middle ground between standing assembled in a clearing and scattering off? Did you not notice that there is a small rise ringing the clearing? Ever single trooper could place himself behind that rise and pour fire into the doorway.

Then he would be ignoring common sense and military tactics. Leave at least one guy on the outside watching the surroundings.

Then you have one man outside and five inside.

I pointed this one out earlier already, but I thought it fun to post it here again – if only to easily be able to track the increase of strawman arguments as the debate progresses.

Bullshit. How is this a strawman? You ARE assuming she has no military training, despite the facts pointed out to you, on the basis of incoherent mumbling about Han Solo's fucking rank!

Your argument makes no sense, and never has. It's just incoherent babble you're repeating, over and over.

I’ve never said that. They’ll probably be under fire. I just don’t think the stormtroopers would be good enough to take them.

Ah, so in other words you're just having a wank.

Repeat offender from last post: My answer was (and is): “My claim is that you can’t compare her to the ODST, since ODST actually have military training and know more about combat situations then she does.”

A claim of yours I already rebutted, and which is not responsive to the point at all. This is also not a strawman - your entire line of bullshit about Leia and the scout trooper has been predicated on the allegation she has no 'military training'. You therefore assume - by obvious implication - that someone with military training would have noticed the scout trooper.

You have not proved this.

Go learn what a fucking strawman is.

Challenges still not answered, l33telboi's insistence they are 'strawmen' aside

*Justify your continued assumption that if Leia had been 'trained', she would've spotted the Scouttrooper. Explain how you can even attempt to justify this when you neither heard nor saw said Scouttrooper's approach.

*Justify your assumption that Leia can be assumed to have no military training even though she's sent on combat missions with a Wookie, elite Rebel commandos, a Jedi Knight, and a Corellian war hero, and has been in many battles and engagements prior, in both a fighting and command capacity. Explain why the hell rank should matter, when in real life many of the most tenacious and competent fighters in history never had any rank whatsoever, or were part of a formal military at all.

* Provide a scene by scene chronology of what you think happened in the movie from the team's capture. If you claim 'a lot of time' passed, explain how this can work given the scene by scene interplay. You can also then explain why none of this alleged long delay is mentioned in the movie, script, novel, or any EU.

Short summary of why your argument's retarded, which was already posted:- apparently you think a space battle raged for fuck knows how long in between their capture and being led out of the bunker (and the Death Star held off firing for god knows how long), that Luke stood in the DS2 throne room for who knows how long before being called to the window to watch the battle, the Imperial fleet took hours to get into 'attack position', etc.

* Explain why, even if this Darkstar-style-ignore-the-entire-movie-nonsense was correct, anyone would reasonably assume that the Imperial force which assembles in the clearing is going to be anywhere else that in the immediate vicinity of the facility they're tasked with protecting, given that they know a Rebel force is coming and they are tasked with its ambush and capture.

[MrEmperor]

Combat effectiveness aside, in the first scenario, how do UNSC weapons rate against stormtrooper armor that is highly effective against 'slugthrowers' (derogatory tone in the original)? Even if the ODSTs could be considered 'better trained' than the stormtrooper elite legion on the surface, would that matter if they could do no damage against the stormtroopers?

Yes, you make the argument, "what about the ewok spears?" but there also exists armor materials that exist now that do better against high velocity projectiles than against slow moving ones. Therefore, it is not inconceivable that stormtrooper armor is designed against fast moving slugthrower bullets and blasters (the main threats that they will be facing). Yes, Han also oneshots stormtroopers, but his pistol is known to be an overcharged version for nearly just this reason. The tradeoff for him is a smaller ammo capacity though.

If we had more than one squad of ODSTs, there might be better odds for their completion, but a single six man squad will be unable to overcome even the lowest number inferred from the films. ODSTs, while much better than normal UNSC Marines, still fall rapidly even in Halo. Here, they have no chance.

Besides, even aside from the combat, lets say they do manage to sneak inside the bunker that the OP says they know about. How do they navigate? Are they given maps of the bunker complex? If not, how can they be expected to find the generator room to set charges? They can't read! The ODSTs face a linguistic barrier, without an AI to brute force herself through the system. With no maps, no way of communicating to potential captives inside the base, and no way to read any signs the do find (if they exist in a military bunker), they'll never be able to even find their objective, much less complete it successfully.

I can see it now. Granting them access to the base, they manage to plant their charges and only find out later (maybe after they're captured) that they managed to destroy the water purification system.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There's clearly four commandos standing behind the right side wall of the bunker entrance, when the door opens.
When they arrive in the room, there's four commandos plus Leia, Chewie and Han.
I'm not sure what the point was all about, but that's what we can see. The hard part is seeing how many commandos enter the bunker with Han and co. But considering that we see four of them at the command center, and since we know the door closed behind Han's team, it's clear that four went in, not three.

As for C3PO, he's clearly not at the same place, further on the left, with Hand and Leia, than the camera is, and we barely see the bunker. But we're not exactly that far from its entrance, and when capturing Rebels, you'd have expected the Imperials to send a couple of guys scouting the vicinity and quickly find goldjob. The local commander was just too much of a twat, too happy having easily captured guys outside and thinking that was all.

Regardless of what the EU says, all this 'best legions' spiel really seems to be part of the Emperor's arguments to subdue Luke more than anything.

Tactically, the ODST should prevail, at least as long as their numbers are high enough.

Why in general SW armies seem to have sucky tactics just boils down to how many wars they've been through in the recent time. If your enemy never came with new tactics and exceptional strategies, you would not need to surpass him with even high cunning. As long as tactics would remain above mediocre, that's just what would happen (the average clonetrooper squad tactics really sucked hard).

Only very few highly trained squads would really stand out from the flood of average mooks. Although there's nothing to be proud of, we have gone through many decades of wars, stretched over millenia, and all the planet's cultures know about that.

The ground defenses at Endor were so deplorable because the Empire never considered that such an attack could happen, they had too much faith in the clanky stuff and the shield, plus the mighty ships up there. No one would be crazy enough to get there, and the defense really got sloppy. Palpatine perhaps realized he could exploit this to increase the believability of the trap.

Edit: Oh and about those ODST explosives of Spartan lasers whatever, it's fine and all if they proved capable of destroying a bridge and perhaps taking down a building, but could they be dialed down? The ODSTs would sure seek to blow the door, not collapse the entrance.

[Leo1]

Edit: Oh and about those ODST explosives of Spartan lasers whatever, it's fine and all if they proved capable of destroying a bridge and perhaps taking down a building, but could they be dialed down? The ODSTs would sure seek to blow the door, not collapse the entrance.

They're note even part of the OP anyway. They weren't in possession of the ODSTs when they started, nor could they be given their ridiculous size.

Anyway, the bridge is hardly an impressive structure and they needed three demo charges per strut, and the explosion would be enough to fry the ODSTs if they even attempted it. Note the whole part about not being something you want to rush, as well. Clearly not something they're going to be doing whilst being shot at, in a dead end, in any event.

Of course, these are super men who are going to fight their way through a hostile bunker whilst surrounded, take no losses in doing so whilst slaughtering their enemies, then reach a closed door and quickly set up their big demolition charge on the door whilst under fire with their backs to the wall, so of course their chances of victory are assured - as are their prospects of correctly gauging the precise amount of explosives to blow open the door which will also be just enough not to blow them to kingdom come.

Oh yeah, the fact that they're mega-awesome supremely badass supermen remains entirely unsubstantiated fanboy inference from a game, just to mention that, rather than any objective canon facts

EDIT: there's also no indication it was those boxy demolition charges that blew up the building anyway

[l33telboi]

Re: Will the ODST outside the bunker be captured as easily as the rebels

Originally Posted by Leo1

It is in fact you who have been flogging the unknowns about this fight so your fanboy wank about the ODSTs can pass muster - and I have been turning it around on you.

Another not-so-subtle attempt to try and evade the fact that you need to find evidence for what you're claiming: Stop squirming and prove your assertion that the Imperials used lifesigns detectors. If you can't muster up even a single tiny shred of evidence you have basis for such a claim then you have no case and it's time for you to concede. Evading isn't going to do you any good.

Originally Posted by Summary

I'm saying the ODST will see the ambush coming before they're captured, because they're presumably competent enough to leave sentries with radios around to inform the others of incoming enemies. Leo replied by saying that the Imperials jammed comlink transmissions and that's why there was no warning when it comes to the rebels. At no point in this debate has he managed to come up with evidence that would suggest this is the case. He's shown that there are jammers on the speeder bikes, but that's about it. I've pointed out that he has no evidence, and also proved that comlink jamming does not work on radio waves, by providing a quote from the Corellian Trilogy. After this he whipped up a new baseless assumption: Namely that the Imperials were using lifesigns detectors and that this is how the rebels were captured. Well, what’s there to say about this except that it’s completely made up. There is absolutely zero evidence that would point to this being the case. To further explain why these lifesigns detectors missed the Ewok, he goes on to indicate that these hypothetical lifesigns detectors are capable of distinguishing between Ewok and human lifesigns.

Ergo my argument stands: The ODST will see the attack coming and be prepared.

Re: C-3P0 being able to avoid detection

So how can you insist the ODSTs won't be caught, if you don't know how the Rebels were captured.

This one will later on be making an appearance in the starwman section of my post. No, I'm saying the ODST won't be captured because they're capable of setting up proper sentries. And C-3P0 shows us that proper sentries would've gone undetected. You should've noticed it, it's in the first paragraph of my summary. But it's easier just to ignore the points being made, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Summary

I've claimed that C-3P0, a gold plated and quite loud droid, standing in sight of the bunker while the rest of the rebels were captured is proof that the Imperials weren't all that thorough in their search for any sentries around the bunker. And that any ODST that might stand sentry in an intelligent fashion would do infinitely better then aforementioned droid.

Leo's first response was to claim that C-3P0 was not standing in plain sight of the bunker. But when I pointed out that we can see how close to the bunker C-3P0 is, and that we can see him not trying to take cover, Leo changed his argument around to say that C-3P0 didn't always stand in the same spot. I also proved that he was indeed in line of sight of the bunker by pointing out that since he can see the bunker, anyone at the bunker can also see him. Which I thought should’ve been obvious without having to actually say it out loud.

I naturally proceeded to quote Han saying 'stay put' to C-3P0, and the droid replying that he will do so. I then provided before and after pictures that show them standing in the exact same spot both before the rebels infiltrate the bunker and after the ambush is sprung.

The entire line-of-sight mini-debate is also just a massive red herring. Even if we assumed C-3P0 was not in line-of-sight of the bunker - then he's still standing close to it without being captured. So my point is the exact same.

The latest argument is apparently that since we see C-3P0 moving after the rebels had already been captured, trying to get them into a trap - it proves that he moved before the ambush as well. This is broken logic.

My point remains the same: Since C-3P0 was able to hide from the ambush, so will anyone with basic military training. The real kind of training. Not the kind we see in fiction and displayed by the rebels.

Re: Will the ODST inside the bunker be surprised and captured like the Rebels?

What evidence? Some guys running inside the bunker?

Your claim: Most of the people came from the inside.
My claim: They most likely came from the outside.

Evidence to support your notion: Nothing.
Evidence to support my notion: The fact that we actually do see some come from the outside.

Originally Posted by Summary

The following started when I said that the ODST will not be surprised like the Rebels were, inside the bunker. The logic behind that was simple: Unlike the rebels the ODST probably knows how to maintain proper sentries. And by proper sentries I mean people watching all access points leading into the main area you’re in. You do this by posting people looking down the corridors leading into the area you’re trying to protect, and you have those people within line of sight of another trooper, so that if they’re disabled the rest will still know about it. When it comes to the rebels they had no such sentries. If there were sentries they were captured without anyone else knowing – which pretty exclusively proves that they were not within line of sight of another trooper. We can see stormtroopers come running around a corner and no one is there to watch the hallway and give alarm. Therefore events will play out differently for the ODST and the rebels.

Leo’s rebuttal is to claim that because the Imperials hid in the walls it will be impossible to maintain effective sentry. But that is untrue since we can see exactly how they go about capturing the rebels, and all that was needed was proper sentries for the defenses to be effective. One guy looking down the hallway for where the stormtroopers came would be enough. It doesn’t matter if he sees the stormtroopers rounding the corner or jumping out from a concealed compartment – the end result is the same. Fire in the direction of the enemy and the squad-mates are alerted. [b]Since then Leo seems to be willfully ignoring the difference between what the rebels did and a proper sentry. He’s also claming that the troopers we can’t see are acting as sentries – even though he can’t prove as much.

There’s also a strawman argument Leo likes to repeat in this regards to this point: He’s claiming that I’ve said that no sentries can be taken by surprise. Had he read what I’ve been saying, then he should’ve noticed that I’ve said that if a proper sentry is taken by surprise, then the others will notice. Because a proper sentry in those circumstances is supposed to be within line of sight of the others.

Re: Über-stealthy Scout troopers

It is in fact something I can claim, because I have common sense and reasoning skills. Ewoks are not human. Ewoks are experienced hunter gathererers, and intimately familiar with their own forest.

This makes them better then Leia, yes. But someone who's an experienced combatant in a familiar environment? For fuck's sake, you're saying things like "Ewoks are not human", well did it ever occur to you that you're making the assumption that they're better then human? Did you ever consider the possibility that they're actually worse? Of course not. Because that assumption wouldn't help your pet franchise to victory, so you assume the opposite - with no evidence. And you take that assumption to ridiculous extremes.

If you hear a suspicious sound or smell a suspicious smell, you haven't "spotted" anything.

Semantics. The Ewok was able to detect the approaching scout troopers, if that term is more agreeable with you.

Originally Posted by Summary

The following is an argument that started when I pointed out that the ODST will have no trouble seeing stormtroopers try to ambush the bunker. The logic was simple: They're clad in stark white armor, and running around in a forest with that sort of getup means you'll get spotted from far away.

Of course, Leo would have none of that, so he's arguing that because scout troopers managed to surprise Leia once, they'd be able to move undetected through the forest. First off, this is what's called a red herring. Because the ones we saw approaching the bunker were officers and stormtroopers, not scout troopers. All we see during the ambush is a few guys who are not scout troopers run into the bunker. And those guys will be noticed, even if by some magical means the scout troopers would go undetected. Which we have no reason to assume. Furthermore, according to Leo, not knowing who did the capturing is enough for us to assume scout troopers did it. Well, no. If he wants us to assume scout troopers did it, then he needs to pony up the evidence for as much.

That aside, I also pointed out the absurdity of claiming that the scout troopers in all white could move undetected through the forest because of two reason; A) Common sense says that people wearing white in a forest are easily spotted, that's why modern armies use camouflage; B) This common sense is shown in the movie when the rebels happen to spot two scout troopers in the forest. And you can see them stand there - bright white among green.

Further more, these über-sneaky scout troopers also failed to notice C-3P0, R2-D2, and an Ewok. This puts some fairly rigid restrictions on just how über they really are. This is relevant, because to actually remain stealthy in the gear they’re carrying, they’d need to know who they’ll be hiding from. They can’t visually hide from something they don’t know is there.

Leo’s latest claim is that the scout troopers apparently used life-signs detectors to spot the guards, and thus managed to captured them. There is absolutely no evidence that would support this. And it begs the question of why they weren’t able to capture the Ewok and as a result spot the droids hiding in the bushes nearby.

So how did the scout trooper surprise Leia? Well, let's start by pointing out that there were two people there - an Ewok and Leia. And the Ewok spotted the scout troopers, perhaps not visually, but that makes no difference. The Ewok is still a biological entity, with ears, eyes and a nose, and with these it realized that it was about to come under attack. That means the scout troopers weren't sneaky enough. Leo maintains that the Ewoks are so superior to humans that this isn't an issue, but he's provided no evidence of as much. Aside from that it's easy to conceal yourself if you know where the enemy is and who you're trying to hide yourself from. In an open combat situation, and without that knowledge - you can't. If someone clad in white doesn’t know where the person who he’s trying to hide from is located (or even that there is such a person), he’s going to have trouble to mask his entire bright getup from them. If he knows where they are – this becomes easier. You might as well claim that modern armies should forego camouflage because 'people can hide themselves if they wanted too'. I dare also point out that Leia wasn't all too impressive in her abilities, because she didn't see the scout trooper before he was standing two meters away and opened his mouth. Sneaking doesn't change the fact that if she'd looked to the side she would've spotted the guy. But then, Leia is a civilian and probably doesn't know everything there is about combat in a forested area, or combat at all, for that matter. Which brought us too:

Re: Leia’s Traning

Which has precisely fuck all to do with your assumption that Leia can be assumed to have no military training, and never did.

I guess I have to spell it out in the summary then. You think that will help?

Originally Posted by Summary

There's far more to military training then hand-to-hand combat and marksmanship, which apparently is what you termed 'trained in combat'. It's not like every one who ever did karate and went hunting could call themselves soldiers.

Yes, she was given military command and was allowed to make decisions on part of the rebellion, but that does not magically give her military training. Actually, having thought about it, I'm going to have to take back what I just said. Has Leia really been given military command? We see her in the Hoth bunker, but does she actually order people around with the authority of a General or Admiral? She doesn't have a rank, unless 'Princess' is an official rank in the Rebellion. Which further points to the fact that she isn't part of the military chain-of-command, unless it's some form of commander-in-chief deal, like a president gets the ultimate authority. Do you know how long it takes to get a rank akin to ‘General’ or ‘Admiral’ which you seem to assume Leia has, giving command decisions and all? Do you know how much training would be necessary? How much experience someone has to have? Apparently not – because we’ve seen nothing that would even hint that Leia would’ve undergone the necessary training or accumulated the necessary experience to do what she did. That means we can prove she hasn’t received the necessary training for her position. She has always been a diplomat and mediator, not someone who could be considered a trained military general. Fact is: We’ve never heard of her having even basic combat training - Which is something you need to be able to prove if you want to maintain your claim.

So how does Han and him becoming a general factor into this? Well, in normal circumstances you don't promote someone who's belonged to the organization you're fighting to the status of general over night. In fact, you don't promote someone to general unless said person is actually qualified and has the experience. Han had neither. This proves that the Rebellion was more then a little haphazard in regards to who they allowed to be in charge.

Leo’s latest attempt at trying to skimp out on this involves shifting the burden of proof: I.e., he’s saying that I’m supposed to prove that she didn’t have any training. All I’ve done is point out that there is no evidence for this.

Re: Will the ODST inside the bunker be surprised and captured like the Rebels?

And if both sentries are taken at once?

I'm getting sick and tired of you constantly throwing out 'what if' scenarios. Analysis is done on a 'what's most likely' basis, deducing as much from evidence. Not randomly throwing out 'what if' scenarios that serve only to give your favored side a chance at winning.

Now then, setting aside the sheer ludicrously of stormtroopers being able to take out two ODST sentries at the same time - Did you not read what I wrote in regards to how you behave inside a building in combat situations? The sentry is within line-of-sight to another guy. And that other guy is within line-of-sight with another guy. It's a chain of people keeping an eye on each other, and thus they are better able to respond to any given problem. You know why this is?

Now let's look at the Endor bunker again. A single room, and proper sentries guarding all the access points (assuming the ODST has minimal military training). This means that the sentries are within line-of-sight of everyone else inside that room.

Originally Posted by Summary

The following started when I said that the ODST will not be surprised like the Rebels were, inside the bunker. The logic behind that was simple: Unlike the rebels the ODST probably knows how to maintain proper sentries. And by proper sentries I mean people watching all access points leading into the main area you’re in. You do this by posting people looking down the corridors leading into the area you’re trying to protect, and you have those people within line of sight of another trooper, so that if they’re disabled the rest will still know about it. When it comes to the rebels they had no such sentries. If there were sentries they were captured without anyone else knowing – which pretty exclusively proves that they were not within line of sight of another trooper. We can see stormtroopers come running around a corner and no one is there to watch the hallway and give alarm. Therefore events will play out differently for the ODST and the rebels.

Leo’s rebuttal is to claim that because the Imperials hid in the walls it will be impossible to maintain effective sentry. But that is untrue since we can see exactly how they go about capturing the rebels, and all that was needed was proper sentries for the defenses to be effective. One guy looking down the hallway for where the stormtroopers came would be enough. It doesn’t matter if he sees the stormtroopers rounding the corner or jumping out from a concealed compartment – the end result is the same. Fire in the direction of the enemy and the squad-mates are alerted. [b]Since then Leo seems to be willfully ignoring the difference between what the rebels did and a proper sentry. He’s also claming that the troopers we can’t see are acting as sentries – even though he can’t prove as much.

There’s also a strawman argument Leo likes to repeat in this regards to this point: He’s claiming that I’ve said that no sentries can be taken by surprise. Had he read what I’ve been saying, then he should’ve noticed that I’ve said that if a proper sentry is taken by surprise, then the others will notice. Because a proper sentry in those circumstances is supposed to be within line of sight of the others.

Re: Assuming they were on the inside

Is it your argument now that soldiers being ambushed and under attack by a numerically superior hostile force have the leisure to engage in (what you allege) are 'simple procedures' without interference by what the hostile force is doing?

It is my argument now that soldiers with minimal training inside a hostile bunker will check the corridors before running into them. They will not do what stormtroopers do - lazily jog into a corridor or room in which they don't know what to find. This is also something they teach anyone with minimal military training - don't run into a room without at least briefly glancing at it first.

This is why setting up something like a machinegun in a corridor is pointless. It's nothing more then a giant, unmoving, target.

you assume 100% competence and composure from the ODSTs when no force in the history of the world can act without interference from the actions of the enemy.

I'm assuming they're able to follow [i]basic[/] military procedures and tactics (not to mention just plain old common sense). And thus not run into a room or corridor without first checking what they can expect to find in it. This is the sort of thing that is drilled into people to the point where it becomes second nature for people who have extensive combat experience and training.

Like the ODST.

Basically your argument has boiled down to the ODST making some fatal mistake in regards to the most basic of tactics and thus the stormtroopers win.

That's irrelevant. Bridges have structural weaknesses that demolition charges can exploit. Also, bridge structural supports != reinforced bunker blast door.

The video you posted shows these charges blowing the entire thing sky-high. It’s not a case of blowing out a single pillar and hoping the thing will collapse. It’s a case of boom and then the bridge is not there anymore.

In particular, you have made the explicit claim about the chronology of the film, in vague terms, asserting it would've taken "a lot of time".

Of course I've used vague terms - because we don't know the specific amount of time. Yeah, I realize that you're the type of person to go around claiming specifics when we don't know them, I'm not. I'm guessing a half hour minimum to do all the stuff the Ewoks did, but quite likely we're talking about a lot more. So what's your argument? "Because you don't know the exact amount of time we must assume no time passed?" That's ridiculous. Setting up traps, informing the village and then rallying the village takes time. Anyone with a functioning brain realizes that.

How do you figure, when I proceed to point out exactly what's wrong with your argument?

Forgive me for asking - but what exactly have you pointed out to be wrong? The only thing you've done is one of the most transparent attempts at evasion by continuously mentioning Darkstar. Literally, the only attempt at a response to this point is saying Darkstar and then repeating the name over and over and over again.

And your attempts to rehabilitate Darkstar's non-existent reputation aside,

I'm sorry, what? Is this what you consider 'pointing out what's wrong with the argument'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're doing now is a textbook case of ad hominen. Attack the guy making the argument without even trying to address the argument... only, you're not even attacking the guy making the argument, you're attacking someone else, for some reason?

* There is no reason to believe Wicket had to go all the way back to his village.

Uh, yeah, there is. Because that's where the Ewoks are that he was supposed to rally. Or are you saying they used Ewok telepathy to inform each other of what’s happening, or something?

* There is no reason to believe the tribe had to spend any time at all 'deciding what to do'

They needed to inform the entire tribe, arm themselves and come up with some basic strategy on how to defeat the Imperials. That takes time.

The Ewoks had many different types of traps, such as pits with spikes, which would be perfect for hunting.

And they had traps that seemed to be custom designed to be used on Imperials. Swinging log trap comes to mind. Why the hell would the Ewoks even set up traps for hunting right on the doorstep of the Imperial bunker? Were the hoping to eat AT-ST for supper?

The Gorax is an enemy of the Ewoks and lives on the same planet nearby. That is the evidence.

Riiight. So the Gorax is an enemy of the Ewoks thus proving that all the traps were indeed traps made for the Gorax? No, it proves that there are Gorax on the planet and that they're enemies with the Ewoks. If you want to say the traps were there because of them - then you're welcome to pony up the evidence.

"or a defence they had already set up against the defilers of their forest (i.e. the Imperials)"

It's still just you throwing around 'what if' stuff without a single shred of evidence.

Originally Posted by Summary

If you want to claim that they were all inside the bunker the whole time – then that plays into the ODST’s favor. They’ll be able to handle the Imperials inside the bunker far more easily then on the outside. Because the Imperials just gave up the one advantage they would’ve had on the outside, and not on the inside – the ability to overwhelm the enemy with numbers. Inside areas like the bunker, with rooms and corridors, there’s no chance to bring all that firepower down on the enemy all at once. In the forest, they could just surround the ODST and fire from every direction. Now they have to use whatever narrow hallways there are that leads to the ODST. That means the ODST can pick them off slowly, rather then being fired at by every single one of them all at once.

E-Webs are a non-issue, since setting them up in a bunker would basically make them one big static target for anyone with basic military training to take out.

Blasting the doors to get out would be easy as pie with either the Spartan Laser or explosive charges.

I’ll admit that it’s possible the AT-STs will get them. But it’s by no means a sure thing, since the ODST do have weaponry capable of one-shotting them. In this case the Spartan Laser. And yes, Dutch will be armed with it. The above assumes that the AT-STs will get in place in time to prevent them to escape though. Which, given the amount of time passing between the rebels being captured and lead out into the clearing (based on the time it would take for Wicket to rally his village). This might not be so, seeing as how they were nowhere to be seen or heard when the ambush was sprung and they don’t move all that quickly.

Re: Stormtrooper competence

They weren't all clumped together at all, and only two men exposed themselves, getting shot whilst trying to get in a position near the centre of the hallway, using the stairwell for cover.

I'm sorry, but your description seems somewhat flawed. Mind if I post a gif to demonstrate just how well these stormtroopers took cover?



You'll forgive me for maintaining that the stormtroopers there clumped together and exposed more then their heads and shoulders. Hell, they even ran back and forth in front of the opening. Blasting without aiming. And as a result three of them die to barely aimed snapshots.

Now imagine a guy with normal-human accuracy in that situation and a decent weapon. It'd be over in five seconds. Now imagine someone with a grenade in that situation... Like I said earlier - if the stormtroopers behave the way the do in the movie - then corridor fighting inside the bunker is going to lead to their deaths.

I didn't know Stormtroopers were in the habit of just standing there whilst grenades explode.

They wouldn't be able to move fast enough to get away. That's why you don't clump together, so that you minimize the number of casualties from weapons with blast radii.

Also, I'd love to know why they'd assume anyone is going to throw a grenade over such a long distance.

The distance is something like 20 meters. What, you need to be superhuman to throw something that far? Alright, assuming the ODST don't have the capacity to throw a grenade across the entire incredibly massive 20 meter length of the corridor. It's going to hit the ground and... keep on going.

so they let their Stormtroopers go on believing they should shoot their only ticket to Yavin on sight.

Most likely they were fine with the idea of capturing the rebels as well. In any case - prove your point. Show me that these stormtroopers had been informed to let them go. Because you know what? The amount of bolts they're shooting at them tends to point to the fact that they weren't all that picky on whether they hit someone. In fact - they kinda tried to hit someone. C-3P0 and R2-D2 were also monitoring the systems on the Death Star, he would’ve picked up on something like: “Don’t shoot the rebels”.

Why the fuck would they scatter? There's no middle ground between standing assembled in a clearing and scattering off? Did you not notice that there is a small rise ringing the clearing?

Then they all stay put. With the bright white armor in jungle-terrain, close to the bunker entrance - and get shot. And as we saw in the movie, the distance between the jungle and the entrance is enough to make Stormtrooper accuracy miss people even though they’re standing still for several minutes.


Re: The batch of strawman arguments for this post

So how can you insist the ODSTs won't be caught, if you don't know how the Rebels were captured.

You can't, can you? But you insist it is so anyway.

Pointed out earlier. The reason I've said the ODST won't be caught is because of C-3P0. Leo tries to skew this into me saying that the ODST won't be caught because we don't know how the Rebels were caught.

Your implication that Ewoks can be assumed to have the same quality of senses as a human

You're the one making the assumption that they're senses are nigh-magical and that a human with proper training and experience could match said feats. I'm merely pointing out that that is baseless.

Justify your continued assumption that if Leia had been 'trained', she would've spotted the Scouttrooper.

Third time this same strawman has been used.

Only three this time around. Impressive. It almost seems as if every time I post these collections you noticeably dial down on the amount of strawmen you use. I guess I should make this standard practice when debating with you.

[l33telboi]

Originally Posted by Lord Vespasian

And as I've pointed out, it's ridiculous to think that the bunker will be visible even further away from a spot that you can't see the bunker from.

The thing is - we don't need to speculate. We know there's LOS from there. And you have absolutely nothing that would say otherwise. The only thing you have is a “there shouldn’t be a LOS there”. Which kinda fades away when you realize that the movie shows us there is.

So, what, ODST's going to leave a guy sitting outside where he'll be able to do jack shit?

You haven't even read what I've posted, have you? If you want to guard a place like the bunker, then you'll do it by sending one guy into the forest. He'll take good visual cover from where he can monitor his surroundings and the bunker. Then, if he spots an enemy, he's job is to inform the others, so that they're prepared for the ambush.

Who said anything about the Rebels "running around"? They snuck their way into the control room the first time, they can do so again, even more effectively since the Imperials aren't lying in wait for them.

Basically there are no cameras anywhere in the facility that would show that everyone of those who previously guarded said facility is now dead or captured? And when the Rebels run back into the facility no one manages to trip the alarm? There’s no one monitoring the status of their troops or trying to keep in contact with them. So the rebels are free to set their charges at their own leisure.

Except they do. You know, when Han requests reinforcements, and they send troops out?

I must've missed the 8000 troops. To me it looked more like a little over a dozen.

That's a nice false dilemma you've concocted there.

I'm pointing out that they didn't use their 8000 troops when they were being assaulted by the Ewoks and the rebels got loose. This then demonstrates that the Imperials, for whatever reason, doesn’t want to commit their forces to the battle.

…If those 8000 troops even exist.

They're no less competent than trademark Evil Minions going up against character-shielded protagonists.

In terms of visual sci-fi they're pretty much near the bottom of a long ladder. Covenant are better, Jaffa are better, redshirts are better, etc. Not sure about Deceptions or Cobra, though, never saw the cartoons with them in.

Not to mention that the above is something of a red herring. The stormtroopers aren't up against trademarked evil minions. Not that I love that you're trying to use character shields as a defense in a versus debate. Especially when they’re up against another set of main characters now.

I didn't say it was "better armor," I said it was "armor their weapons suck against." Stormtrooper armor is effective at stopping bullets,

I've seen nothing that would indicate as much. Arrows, spears and pretty much everything cut through it. In G-canon, T-canon and C-canon. I'm aware of one single C-canon source that would claim otherwise, but it kinda crumbles in the face of opposing evidence. For fuck's sake, they even make use of old flintlock rifles in the EU, and there's a zillion other commonly used slughtrowers:

[General Schatten]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

I've seen nothing that would indicate as much. Arrows, spears and pretty much everything cut through it. In G-canon, T-canon and C-canon. I'm aware of one single C-canon source that would claim otherwise, but it kinda crumbles in the face of opposing evidence.

Hey look, I can make unsourced assertions relying upon you to trust my integrity: I've seen canon evidence that the ODST armour is made of wood and their bullets are rubber. In other words your source for this bullshit if you will?

For fuck's sake, they even make use of old flintlock rifles in the EU, and there's a zillion other commonly used slughtrowers:

Thousands upon thousands of years ago.

[l33telboi]

Originally Posted by General Schatten

Hey look, I can make unsourced assertions relying upon you to trust my integrity: I've seen canon evidence that the ODST armour is made of wood and their bullets are rubber. In other words your source for this bullshit if you will?

Gladly:





And then something about slughtrowers (I can probably quote every single one of the sources indicated there if you want too.)

Now let's take a step back and have a look at the argument. Vespasian said bullets will be ineffective. Did he provide any evidence? No. Any reasoning? No. So ditch the 'unsourced assertions' crap.

Thousands upon thousands of years ago.

They had pretty much identical tech, including blasters and other weapons, in that time.

[General Schatten]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

Gladly:

-snip-

No visible penetration.

-snip-

Not Stormie armour.

And then something about slughtrowers (I can probably quote every single one of the sources indicated there if you want too.)

Considering Wookieepedia is not a canon source it won't be necessary. This is without going into the rediculousness of using a wiki for evidence.

Now let's take a step back and have a look at the argument. Vespasian said bullets will be ineffective. Did he provide any evidence? No. Any reasoning? No. So ditch the 'unsourced assertions' crap.

You mean except the comics and novels wherein Tuskens have to aim specifically for the eyes and joints to be at all effective and ST Armour stops a penetrator that literally picks the occupant up and slams them into the wall causing little more than bruising? (The first I don't particularly remember the name of but the second which is frankly more impressive YJK: Lightsabers)

[l33telboi]

Originally Posted by General Schatten

No visible penetration.

Riiight. How about this one then:

Not Stormie armour.

The plates are made of plastoid on both suits of armor (gee, you think that might be why they look the same?). And the NEGTWT says stormtrooper armor has more features but is less durable, indicating the stormtrooper armor has thinner plates.

Considering Wookieepedia is not a canon source it won't be necessary. This is without going into the rediculousness of using a wiki for evidence.

I just said I can quote each and every single source there if you don't trust the Wookieepedia. So what’s it going to be? Point out the passages you doubt and I’ll quote directly from the source.

You mean except the comics and novels wherein Tuskens have to aim specifically for the eyes and joints to be at all effective

Ever think that those desert dwelling luddites might not have the best of guns?

EDIT: Reading up on it on Wookiepedia, those rifles don't even seem to be normal slugthrowers.

and ST Armour stops a penetrator that literally picks the occupant up and slams them into the wall causing little more than bruising?

That particular Contradicts G, T and C-canon. How could the Ewoks with small slings do anything against stormtroopers if they can resist physical impacts that pick them off their feet? In addition, we've seen spears penetrate armor in T-canon and C-canon. And the passage you're referring to regards a spear, IIRC.

[General Schatten]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

Riiight. How about this one then:

I see blood on a white shell centered around a vulnerable opening to the body suit.

The plates are made of plastoid on both suits of armor (gee, you think that might be why they look the same?). And the NEGTWT says stormtrooper armor has more features but is less durable, indicating the stormtrooper armor has thinner plates.

Armor materials can have different compositions. Also do you have a quote?

I just said I can quote each and every single source there if you don't trust the Wookieepedia. So what’s it going to be? Point out the passages you doubt and I’ll quote directly from the source.

Provide the quotes and the visuals, that's what I asked for, just pointing at Wookieepedia and expecting me to trust that just because you can back it up with a bluff is laughable.

Ever think that those desert dwelling luddites might not have the best of guns?

EDIT: Reading up on it on Wookiepedia, those rifles don't even seem to be normal slugthrowers.

Wookieepedia=|=Canon.

That particular Contradicts G, T and C-canon. How could the Ewoks with small slings do anything against stormtroopers if they can resist physical impacts that pick them off their feet?

If it can cause bruising it can cause a minor concussion, just because they fall down doesn't mean they're dead, conservation of momentum and all.

In addition, we've seen spears penetrate armor in T-canon and C-canon. And the passage you're referring to regards a spear, IIRC.

Yes, a spear with enough force to physically pick the occupier up and slam them into a wall, that's an astounding amount of momentum.

[l33telboi]

Originally Posted by General Schatten

I see blood on a white shell centered around a vulnerable opening to the body suit.

You can see the spear has penetrated through the plated part of the chest, and is sticking out the back (which presumably is also plated). Here, maybe a little zoom will cure your temporary loss of sight:



But if that's not enough, why not post more panels?



Well I'll be... Spears sticking out through a stormtroopers back. Only way that could happen is if the spears penetrated.

Armor materials can have different compositions. Also do you have a quote?

Of course I have a quote. I always have quotes.

Clone trooper armor:

Originally Posted by NEGWT

Each plate is manufactured using a lightweight plastoid-alloy composite that can withstand explosions, small firearms blasts, and even blaster bolts.

Stormtrooper armor:

Originally Posted by NEGWT

Stormtrooper armor is simultaneously more advanced and less formidable then its clone trooper predecessor. While clone trooper armor is designed to sustain significant damage, a stormtrooper's plastoid shell protects only against glancing blaster blows and physical attacks.

Would you like a scan of the pages while we’re at it?

Provide the quotes and the visuals, that's what I asked for, just pointing at Wookieepedia and expecting me to trust that just because you can back it up with a bluff is laughable.

Which projectile weapon would you like to know more about? Just say what on that page you're doubting and I'll show you that - no: Wookipeedia is not a giant conspiracy to introduce slugthrowers into Star Wars. And that they actually exist all over the place already.

Wookieepedia=|=Canon.

Ok then. Provide the source for your claims. The Tusken Raider's needing to shoot at the visor and bodyglove thing to penetrate. I mean, if you're this strict on procedures regarding evidence, then naturally you should be able to do this. No? Otherwise you'd be a big old hypocrite, wouldn't you?

If it can cause bruising it can cause a minor concussion, just because they fall down doesn't mean they're dead, conservation of momentum and all.

Conservation of momentum is exactly what I'm talking about. If someone gets hit by a physical impactor powerful enough to throw him off his feet, then being hit by rocks that don't even jolt the stormtrooper is going to do absolutely nothing. Even the largest rocks thrown on the stormies would have absolutely no effect.

And yet, they keep falling over from hits from wooden clubs, slingshots, arrows, rocks, etc. The novelization even mentions impaling. Hard to impale someone without the armor being breached, no?

That means that the one quote that would point to tough stormtrooper armor is contradicted by G-, T- and C-canon.

[General Schatten]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

You can see the spear has penetrated through the plated part of the chest, and is sticking out the back (which presumably is also plated). Here, maybe a little zoom will cure your temporary loss of sight:

-snip-

But if that's not enough, why not post more panels?

-snip-

Well I'll be... Spears sticking out through a stormtroopers back. Only way that could happen is if the spears penetrated.

I notice there's no blood. You still don't have full penetration and we don't even know the composition of those spears.

Of course I have a quote. I always have quotes.

Clone trooper armor:



Stormtrooper armor:



Would you like a scan of the pages while we’re at it?

I like how it doesn't say anything like what you've been saying, for example the lines about being more advanced and optimized against physical attacks would seem to back up our argument.

Which projectile weapon would you like to know more about? Just say what on that page you're doubting and I'll show you that - no: Wookipeedia is not a giant conspiracy to introduce slugthrowers into Star Wars. And that they actually exist all over the place already.

Oh, I know they exiwt, I just don't trust Wookieepedia to be correct, especially after the argument I got into on here with you and some other retard wherein you swore that Mustafar was a BDZ. So keep providing evidence of a full penetration.

Ok then. Provide the source for your claims. The Tusken Raider's needing to shoot at the visor and bodyglove thing to penetrate. I mean, if you're this strict on procedures regarding evidence, then naturally you should be able to do this. No? Otherwise you'd be a big old hypocrite, wouldn't you?

Well let's just use your source, Wookieepedia says it's true, so find out why they say it's true. Once I find out where I'm remembering that from I'll tell you, but that example is not really that important to my point anyhow.

Conservation of momentum is exactly what I'm talking about. If someone gets hit by a physical impactor powerful enough to throw him off his feet, then being hit by rocks that don't even jolt the stormtrooper is going to do absolutely nothing. Even the largest rocks thrown on the stormies would have absolutely no effect.

You mean the ones that were the size of a head?

And yet, they keep falling over from hits from wooden clubs, slingshots, arrows, rocks, etc. The novelization even mentions impaling. Hard to impale someone without the armor being breached, no?

Yes we saw impaling, yet not once did we see it penetrate armour only the body glove.

That means that the one quote that would point to tough stormtrooper armor is contradicted by G-, T- and C-canon.

Only the parts of the novel that are portrayed by the movies are G-Canon, you have Phase I/II armour being penetrated which is of a different composition from stormtrooper, and you've yet to evidence a full pentration of the armour in C-Canon. What part of this is so hard to understand?

[Leo1]

Another not-so-subtle attempt to try and evade the fact that you need to find evidence for what you're claiming: Stop squirming and prove your assertion that the Imperials used lifesigns detectors. If you can't muster up even a single tiny shred of evidence you have basis for such a claim then you have no case and it's time for you to concede. Evading isn't going to do you any good.

Afraid not. Your habit of trying to project your behavior onto others is not going to fly, dear man. Repeatedly throughout this thread you have tossed out assertion after assertion - based on nothing - and refused to justify any. Life scanners are standard SW technology, observed at Hoth on both astromech droids and handheld units. I see no reason to deny them to the Imperial garrison.

This one will later on be making an appearance in the starwman section of my post. No, I'm saying the ODST won't be captured because they're capable of setting up proper sentries.

Justify this assumption.

Your claim: Most of the people came from the inside.
My claim: They most likely came from the outside.

Evidence to support your notion: Nothing.

Wrong, genius. The bunker is their base. That is evidence.

Evidence to support my notion: The fact that we actually do see some come from the outside.

A handful, and you don't know where they came from. That is not evidence.

This makes them better then Leia, yes. But someone who's an experienced combatant in a familiar environment? For fuck's sake, you're saying things like "Ewoks are not human", well did it ever occur to you that you're making the assumption that they're better then human? Did you ever consider the possibility that they're actually worse? Of course not. Because that assumption wouldn't help your pet franchise to victory, so you assume the opposite - with no evidence. And you take that assumption to ridiculous extremes.

"With no evidence", eh? Yes, let's just ignore the fact that Leia didn't notice anything, that's not evidence at all, is it? Instead, let us assume that an 'experienced combatant' will be able to smell something wrong, like the Ewok did.

Tell me, how often do human soldiers sniff the air to detect danger?

Now as for crap you've added to your turgid, boring, prejudicial summaries:-

Actually, having thought about it, I'm going to have to take back what I just said. Has Leia really been given military command? We see her in the Hoth bunker, but does she actually order people around with the authority of a General or Admiral?

"Send all troops in Sector 12 to the soutpost to defend the fighters."

"Give the evacuation code signal. And get to your transports!"

Watch the damn movies with your ears open, sometime.

And I never said she had the authority of a a general or admiral, so shove that strawman from whence it came. Rank is not relevant, your incomprehensible attempts to make out Han being promoted to General somehow part of this debate aside.

Leo’s latest attempt at trying to skimp out on this involves shifting the burden of proof: I.e., he’s saying that I’m supposed to prove that she didn’t have any training. All I’ve done is point out that there is no evidence for this.

There is, no matter how often you try to ignore it- it's the fact that she's present on Endor at all with the Rebel commandos. It's the fact that she's fought in many battles before. I trust your "lallalalalalalalal I can't hear you!" antics in this regard are available for all to see.

I'm getting sick and tired of you constantly throwing out 'what if' scenarios.

Your entire argument's a 'what if' scenario constructed on your pathetic fanboy Gary-Stuing about ODSTs based on nothing, you think I'm at all bothered by what you're sick and tired of?

Now then, setting aside the sheer ludicrously of stormtroopers being able to take out two ODST sentries at the same time - Did you not read what I wrote in regards to how you behave inside a building in combat situations? The sentry is within line-of-sight to another guy. And that other guy is within line-of-sight with another guy. It's a chain of people keeping an eye on each other, and thus they are better able to respond to any given problem. You know why this is?

Now let's look at the Endor bunker again. A single room, and proper sentries guarding all the access points (assuming the ODST has minimal military training). This means that the sentries are within line-of-sight of everyone else inside that room.

How is this responsive to being surprised at the same time? It's not. Let's move on.

I'm assuming they're able to follow [i]basic[/] military procedures and tactics (not to mention just plain old common sense). And thus not run into a room or corridor without first checking what they can expect to find in it. This is the sort of thing that is drilled into people to the point where it becomes second nature for people who have extensive combat experience and training.

Like the ODST.

Basically your argument has boiled down to the ODST making some fatal mistake in regards to the most basic of tactics and thus the stormtroopers win.

No, the ODSTs rapid death was assured from the start. It's simply fun to point out factor after factor that tends towards that, including their having to deal with any number of choke points the Imperials can set up with their superior numbers and multiple avenues of attack.

Your insisting "oh that won't happen because this thread is MY fanfic!" isn't a rebuttal, I'm afraid.

The video you posted shows these charges blowing the entire thing sky-high. It’s not a case of blowing out a single pillar and hoping the thing will collapse. It’s a case of boom and then the bridge is not there anymore.

I didn't see anything get blown 'sky high', I saw a bridge disappear in an explosion. Given that three demo charges were placed on each strut, that is hardly surprising. Of course, we can clearly see a column fall into the water afterwards, so no, it wasn't disintegrated or blown 'sky high'.

Of course I've used vague terms - because we don't know the specific amount of time. Yeah, I realize that you're the type of person to go around claiming specifics when we don't know them, I'm not. I'm guessing a half hour minimum to do all the stuff the Ewoks did, but quite likely we're talking about a lot more. So what's your argument? "Because you don't know the exact amount of time we must assume no time passed?" That's ridiculous. Setting up traps, informing the village and then rallying the village takes time. Anyone with a functioning brain realizes that.

Please don't insult people with functioning brains. PROVE that they had to set up traps. PROVE the village had to be 'rallied'.

And HALF AN HOUR? To do all of what you think the Ewoks had to do? What the fuck are they, Ewok supermen?!

Forgive me for asking - but what exactly have you pointed out to be wrong? The only thing you've done is one of the most transparent attempts at evasion by continuously mentioning Darkstar. Literally, the only attempt at a response to this point is saying Darkstar and then repeating the name over and over and over again.

That's a lovely fantasy. No one who actually reads this thread will believe it, however.

I'm sorry, what? Is this what you consider 'pointing out what's wrong with the argument'. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're doing now is a textbook case of ad hominen. Attack the guy making the argument without even trying to address the argument... only, you're not even attacking the guy making the argument, you're attacking someone else, for some reason?

You don't even know what a strawman is, and now you're compounding your errors with more mutilations of straightforward logical fallacies. Snide remarks != ad hominem. Do learn the difference.

Uh, yeah, there is. Because that's where the Ewoks are that he was supposed to rally.

Who says? You? Prove it. Quote the movie/novel/script/ etc that says Wicket went all the way back to the village.

Or are you saying they used Ewok telepathy to inform each other of what’s happening, or something?

I'm sorry, telepathy has something to do with your making up complete bullshit about rally points, now? The Ewoks have gliders (battle), they have hunting parties / warbands (net trap), obviously far from their village. Figure it out. This is especially so after the Rebels have just the night before given them a rousing speech about assisting them in their fight against the Empire.

They needed to inform the entire tribe, arm themselves and come up with some basic strategy on how to defeat the Imperials. That takes time.

Who says? You? Prove it. The entire tribe needs to be 'armed'? Warriors have their own weapons. A basic strategy of how to defeat the Imperials? That's easy - ambush them. Lead their troops into their traps. Yeah, big time sink.

And they had traps that seemed to be custom designed to be used on Imperials. Swinging log trap comes to mind. Why the hell would the Ewoks even set up traps for hunting right on the doorstep of the Imperial bunker? Were the hoping to eat AT-ST for supper?

I'm sorry, what? I just saw an assumption that the traps were 'right on the doorstep of the Imperial bunker'. Do point out where you derived knowledge of the location of these traps relative to the Imperial bunker.

Riiight. So the Gorax is an enemy of the Ewoks thus proving that all the traps were indeed traps made for the Gorax? No, it proves that there are Gorax on the planet and that they're enemies with the Ewoks. If you want to say the traps were there because of them - then you're welcome to pony up the evidence.

False dilemma, again - you are being dishonest, my dear lad. I explicitly rejected your attempt to call all traps being for a single purpose in the last post. Don't do it again, mmmkay?

It's still just you throwing around 'what if' stuff without a single shred of evidence.

Uhhhh - huh - so yeah, let's all think about what's more likely, eh?

* Alien interlopers from off world come to your planet and your village does nothing at all to respond.
* Village actually takes measures to defend itself if attacked by the alien other.

"ZOMG, throwing what if without a single shred of evidence!"

Indeed!

Of course, there is actually evidence that you are full of shit, and it is the chronology of the film. Your asinine assumption that this largely stone age tribe set up those traps into position right next to the bunker (remember, that's where you think they are, that's your argument) on the day because Wicket went and told them (and ran all the way back to the village to do so, and then ran all the way back!) leads us to assume it happened all between here:-

1:29:30:- Rebels bust into the command centre of the bunker. Leia declares the fleet will be here 'at any moment'.

1:29:49:- two officers and two Starfleet Troopers run into the bunker whilst a Stormtrooper and Starfleet Trooper stand guard. Wicket runs off.

1:30:- Imperial troops capture the Rebels in the bunker. "You Rebel scum."

1:30:15 - 1:31:37:- the Rebel fleet arrives. Imperial fleet appears from behind Endor to behind the Rebel fleet. Battle commences.

1:31:38 - 1:32:44:- The Emperor calls Luke over and gloats over the final destruction of the Alliance. Urges Luke to kill him.

and here:-

1:32:47:- the Rebels are led out into the clearing before the waiting Imperial force. Ewok counterattack commences.

1:36.19:- battle in space continues. Lando wonders what those Star Destroyers are waiting for.

1:37:- Imperial officer reports to Admrial Piett: "we're in attack position now sir". Piett orders a hold. Piett indicates something special is planned.

1:37:20:- the Death Star fires for the first time.

It should be clear to anyone why you're talking shit. It assumes that 'a lot of time passed' (your cowardly behavior of being deliberately vague notwithstanding) in circumstances where a lot of time could not have passed. Are we supposed to assume that an hour or hours - or whatever your definition of a lot of time is, passed in between 1:29:49 and 1:32:47, which has the following consequences?

* Luke stood around for how long in the Emperor's Throne Room before being called to the window?
* The space battle raged - without the Death Star opening fire - for how long?
* Lando didn't notice the Imperial fleet wasn't attacking - for how long?
* The Imperial fleet didn't manage to get into attack position until how long had passed?
* For some reason the Emperor let Luke stand at the window before giving the order to the Death Star to fire, for how long?

Anyone who proposes this is a moron. Period.

The funny thing, of course, is that this is a red herring, since you've already conceded - by non-response, several times, my point- i.e. the Imperial forces will of course be nearby the area they're tasked with defending as part of their planned ambush.

At no point have you actually explained why anyone would think they're in fact 'a lot of time' or hours or whatever away, you simply pulled that out of your posterior to try and make out that there's a chance that the ODSTs will actually come out of the bunker (they'll never make it out alive anyway, but let's just pretend they do) and not meet any resistance, because the Imperials in the clearing aren't there yet.

E-Webs are a non-issue, since setting them up in a bunker would basically make them one big static target for anyone with basic military training to take out.

Wank, based entirely on your assumptions.

Blasting the doors to get out would be easy as pie with either the Spartan Laser or explosive charges.

Again, prove it- at no point have you even tried to substantiate your Splaser BS. Nor have you explained what relevance three demolition charges (to break mere masonry) has to do with a blast door. I also look forward to you explaining how said demolition charge won't blow them all up in the attempt.

I'm sorry, but your description seems somewhat flawed. Mind if I post a gif to demonstrate just how well these stormtroopers took cover?

Yeah, it's exactly what I said. See, for those who watched the movie, three out of five of those Stormtroopers are hiding behind the consoles in the background.

They wouldn't be able to move fast enough to get away. That's why you don't clump together, so that you minimize the number of casualties from weapons with blast radii.

Why should they, when the majority of them are protected by the consoles?

Most likely they were fine with the idea of capturing the rebels as well.

No, they weren't. "They let us go."

"You're sure the homing beacon is secure aboard their ship? I'm taking an awful risk Vader. This had better work."

In essence, stop making shit up.

In any case - prove your point. Show me that these stormtroopers had been informed to let them go.

I already have.

Then they all stay put. With the bright white armor in jungle-terrain, close to the bunker entrance - and get shot. And as we saw in the movie, the distance between the jungle and the entrance is enough to make Stormtrooper accuracy miss people even though they’re standing still for several minutes.

ROFLMAO. Yeah, several dozen guys will all get shot by a fraction of their number- even though they have ample cover (apparently you think cover is a function of camoflage and not also an obstruction for incoming fire - military genius that you are ) and overwhelming firepower. With AT-STs.

But yeah, keep relying on a handful of Stormtroopers firing at Han and Leia and pretending its remotely the same as *12 times* your number plus AT-STs shooting at you.

Again - Pure Wank.

Pointed out earlier. The reason I've said the ODST won't be caught is because of C-3P0. Leo tries to skew this into me saying that the ODST won't be caught because we don't know how the Rebels were caught.

Broken logic. What does C-3PO prove, when every other Rebel outside was caught? Learn statistics please. Your sample's a bit small.

You're the one making the assumption that they're senses are nigh-magical and that a human with proper training and experience could match said feats. I'm merely pointing out that that is baseless.

Because as we all know, human sentries often detect enemies by sniffing the air.

Third time this same strawman has been used.

And yet - you still can't explain why it's a strawman. Concession Accepted.

Slugthrowers

Every single ODST (except Buck) has as standard a suppressed 5x23mm submachine gun. The idea that these are going to be better guns than say Tusken rifles with a far longer effective range (and obviously bigger bullet) is laughable. These are PDWs, for fuck's sake.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Oh, if you want stuff about the spears, here's a good selection of pictures (sorry, got them from a Russian version):

Two things. The creatures had long arms, which means a greater velocity.
However, notice that those spears could also break.

Leia and Han probably achieved a good number of missions in the EU, before the battle of Endor, no?

I doubt the Ewoks learned to make gliders, catapults and build other traps just on that day.

ODSTs in the game appeared to win because they could survive to masses of enemies, and like in any typical FPS, they could soak a good amount of hits. Is there a legit background that says they carry personal shields or something? In one of the videos Leo brought, we can literally see the player charge with an axe. He's probably playing on easy mode or something, but still, that's a ridiculous achievement, surviving all that fire, standing out in the open and killing brute after brute, etc.
Game mechanics, and plot there, give a really bad idea of how things would have went on for real. That's why I prefer my FPS heroes to be very special, power enhanced. At least it makes sense then.

[General Schatten]

Originally Posted by Mr. Oragahn

Oh, if you want stuff about the spears, here's a good selection of pictures (sorry, got them from a Russian version):

-snip-

Two things. The creatures had long arms, which means a greater velocity.
However, notice that those spears could also break.

Thank you for being capable of just presenting the evidence straight up. Now according to the canon policy we have to reconcile this. Seeing as we don't know the composition or density of the spears it is possible they're made of a particularly dense material, sheer strength is a factor but unless your penetrator is of a sufficiently dense material it'll just break.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Originally Posted by General Schatten

Thank you for being capable of just presenting the evidence straight up. Now according to the canon policy we have to reconcile this. Seeing as we don't know the composition or density of the spears it is possible they're made of a particularly dense material, sheer strength is a factor but unless your penetrator is of a sufficiently dense material it'll just break.

A break they do. Those creatures were the Amani. Although intelligent (they knew to sneak into the observation turret of a dreadnought and arm explosives), they don't seem to use special techniques to build their spears. Evidence of the contrary would, of course, need to be brought forth.



Boo, scary guys.

More info and pictures at the page about the battle of Maridun.

Apparently the spears are just plain wood.

[l33telboi]

I’ll merge all the various debates given the board policy on multi-posting. Shatten, Vespasian, you can expect to find your points in here from here on.

Re: Will the ODST outside the bunker be captured as easily as the rebels

Originally Posted by Leo1

Repeatedly throughout this thread you have tossed out assertion after assertion - based on nothing - and refused to justify any. Life scanners are standard SW technology, observed at Hoth on both astromech droids and handheld units. I see no reason to deny them to the Imperial garrison.

I've tossed out assumptions you've made but can't verify and provide any evidence for. As I should do whenever someone makes a claim they can't back up. As it stands you will have to come up with some evidence to support you if you want your argument about lifesigns detectors to be taken seriously.

Let’s put it all simple like. If you say: “The Imperials used lifesigns detectors to find the rebels.” Then you need to provide the evidence that suggests as much.

I'm saying the ODST will see the ambush coming before they're captured, because they're presumably competent enough to leave sentries with radios around to inform the others of incoming enemies. Leo replied by saying that the Imperials jammed comlink transmissions and that's why there was no warning when it comes to the rebels. At no point in this debate has he managed to come up with evidence that would suggest this is the case. He's shown that there are jammers on the speeder bikes, but that's about it. I've pointed out that he has no evidence, and also proved that comlink jamming does not work on radio waves, by providing a quote from the Corellian Trilogy. After this he whipped up a new baseless assumption: Namely that the Imperials were using lifesigns detectors and that this is how the rebels were captured. Well, what’s there to say about this except that it’s completely made up? There is absolutely zero evidence that would point to this being the case. To further explain why these lifesigns detectors missed the Ewok, he goes on to indicate that these hypothetical lifesigns detectors are capable of distinguishing between Ewok and human lifesigns.

My argument stands: The ODST will see the attack coming and be prepared.

Re: C-3P0 being able to avoid detection

Justify this assumption.

It's all in the summary, and has always been there. Feel free to chime whenever you think you're about ready to start coming up with new arguments.

I've claimed that C-3P0, a gold plated and quite loud droid, standing in sight of the bunker while the rest of the rebels were captured is proof that the Imperials weren't all that thorough in their search for any sentries around the bunker. And that any ODST that might stand sentry in an intelligent fashion would do infinitely better then aforementioned droid.

Leo's first response was to claim that C-3P0 was not standing in plain sight of the bunker. But when I pointed out that we can see how close to the bunker C-3P0 is, and that we can see him not trying to take cover, Leo changed his argument around to say that C-3P0 didn't always stand in the same spot. I also proved that he was indeed in line of sight of the bunker by pointing out that since he can see the bunker, anyone at the bunker can also see him. Which I thought should’ve been obvious without having to actually say it out loud.

I naturally proceeded to quote Han saying 'stay put' to C-3P0, and the droid replying that he will do so. I then provided before and after pictures that show them standing in the exact same spot both before the rebels infiltrate the bunker and after the ambush is sprung.

The entire line-of-sight mini-debate is also just a massive red herring. Even if we assumed C-3P0 was not in line-of-sight of the bunker - then he's still standing close to it without being captured. So my point is the exact same.

The latest argument is apparently that since we see C-3P0 moving after the rebels had already been captured, trying to get them into a trap - it proves that he moved before the ambush as well. This is broken logic.

My point remains the same: Since C-3P0 was able to hide from the ambush, so will anyone with basic military training. The real kind of training. Not the kind we see in fiction and displayed by the rebels.

Re: Did the people in the clearing come from inside the base or were they waiting outside?

The bunker is their base. That is evidence.

So because the bunker is their base we can assume they all came from there, even though we see people enter the bunker from the outside? To put it succinctly: No, that the bunker is their base is not enough to claim they came from there, since we specifically see a number of them not come from there.

You want to claim the people in the clearing came from inside, you go ahead and prove it. I've already shown that we can prove that at least some came from the outside, making the argument quite moot.

Originally Posted by Summary

The AT-STs certainly didn’t come from inside the bunker, the speeder bikes didn’t come from inside the bunker – and we actually see people running from the outside into the bunker when the ambush is sprung. That means we know a number of officers and stormtroopers didn’t come from inside the bunker. Unless they first ran out and then ran in again. There would be no point of anyone from the outside running into the bunker, if they already have everybody they need to capture the rebels inside. This indicates the excess people were indeed on the outside. It’s not guaranteed, of course, but the little evidence we have would point to that conclusion.

Re: Über-stealthy Scout troopers

"With no evidence", eh? Yes, let's just ignore the fact that Leia didn't notice anything, that's not evidence at all, is it?

That is evidence that she, and she alone, didn't notice anything wrong. Like you've so aptly pointed out - She's not exactly in her element. Will the same apply to people that actually are in their element? We're not going to make that assumption unless you find something a little more solid to base your evidence on.

I also like how you've now decided that it was actually the sense of smell that alerted the Ewok. A while ago you were trying to pass it off as 'sensing something wrong'.

Originally Posted by Summary

The following is an argument that started when I pointed out that the ODST will have no trouble seeing stormtroopers try to ambush the bunker. The logic was simple: They're clad in stark white armor, and running around in a forest with that sort of getup means you'll get spotted from far away.

Of course, Leo would have none of that, so he's arguing that because scout troopers managed to surprise Leia once, they'd be able to move undetected through the forest. First off, this is what's called a red herring. Because the ones we saw approaching the bunker were officers and stormtroopers, not scout troopers. All we see during the ambush is a few guys who are not scout troopers run into the bunker. And those guys will be noticed, even if by some magical means the scout troopers would go undetected. Which we have no reason to assume. Furthermore, according to Leo, not knowing who did the capturing is enough for us to assume scout troopers did it. Well, no. If he wants us to assume scout troopers did it, then he needs to pony up the evidence for as much.

That aside, I also pointed out the absurdity of claiming that the scout troopers in all white could move undetected through the forest because of two reason; A) Common sense says that people wearing white in a forest are easily spotted, that's why modern armies use camouflage; B) This common sense is shown in the movie when the rebels happen to spot two scout troopers in the forest. And you can see them stand there - bright white among green. You can later also see this when the Imperials are trying to take cover around the bunker. They’re not magically vanishing even though they’re trying to remain stealthy. You can see them plain as day and because of that a number of them get shot.

Further more, these über-sneaky scout troopers also failed to notice C-3P0, R2-D2, and an Ewok. This puts some fairly rigid restrictions on just how über they really are. This is relevant because to actually remain stealthy in the gear they’re carrying, they’d need to know who they’ll be hiding from and where those people are. They can’t visually hide from something they don’t know is there, since they can’t block the line-of-sight to themselves from everywhere all at once.

So how did the scout trooper surprise Leia? Well, let's start by pointing out that there were two people there - an Ewok and Leia. And the Ewok spotted the scout troopers, perhaps not visually, but that makes no difference. It still managed to detect the approaching scout trooper. The Ewok is a biological entity, with ears, eyes and a nose, and with these it realized that it was about to come under attack. That means the scout troopers weren't sneaky enough to hide from it. Leo maintains that the Ewoks are so superior to humans that this isn't an issue, but he's provided no evidence of as much. Aside from that it's easy to conceal yourself if you know where the enemy is and who you're trying to hide yourself from. In an open combat situation, and without that knowledge - you can't. If someone clad in white doesn’t know where the person who he’s trying to hide from is located (or even that there is such a person), he’s going to have trouble to mask his entire bright getup from them. If he knows where they are – this becomes easier. You might as well claim that modern armies should forego camouflage because 'people can hide themselves if they wanted too'. I dare also point out that Leia wasn't all too impressive in her abilities, because she didn't see the scout trooper before he was standing two meters away and opened his mouth. Sneaking doesn't change the fact that if she'd looked to the side she would've spotted the guy. But then, Leia is a civilian and probably doesn't know everything there is about combat in a forested area, or combat at all, for that matter.

Re: Leia’s Traning

Watch the damn movies with your ears open, sometime.

That doesn't change anything. She still doesn't have a rank. You still haven't proved she has actual military training. And all signs point to her being a civilian.

And to make things worse: I just noticed that the EGC says she was drafted by the Alliance to act as a diplomat and get more worlds to join the Rebellion. Before this she'd been working as a senator, on a planet that shunned warfare and violence. And strangely enough, not a single mention of any military training anywhere.

Rank is not relevant,

Rank is relevant. If you don't have one then you're probably also not apart of the official military chain-of-command.

Originally Posted by Summary

There's far more to military training then hand-to-hand combat and marksmanship, which apparently is what you termed 'trained in combat'. It's not like every one who ever did karate and went hunting could call themselves soldiers.

Yes, she was given military command and was allowed to make decisions on part of the rebellion, but that does not magically give her military training. Actually, having thought about it, I'm going to have to take back what I just said. Has Leia really been given military command? We see her in the Hoth bunker, but does she actually order people around with the authority of a General or Admiral? She doesn't have a rank, unless 'Princess' is an official rank in the Rebellion. Which further points to the fact that she isn't part of the military chain-of-command, unless it's some form of commander-in-chief deal, like a president gets the ultimate authority. Apart from that, do you know how long it takes to get a rank akin to ‘General’ or ‘Admiral’ which you seem to assume Leia has, giving command decisions and all? Do you know how much training would be necessary? How much experience someone has to have? Apparently not – because we’ve seen nothing that would even hint that Leia would’ve undergone the necessary training or accumulated the necessary experience to do what she did. That means we can prove she hasn’t received the necessary training for her position. She has always been a diplomat and mediator, not someone who could be considered a trained military general. Fact is: We’ve never heard of her having even basic combat training - Which is something you need to be able to prove if you want to maintain your claim.

Add to this that EGC says nothing about any potential military training at all, even though it details here entire life. She was raised on Alderaan, a planet that shunned warfare, and became a senator. Then she was enlisted by the rebel alliance to act as a diplomat, trying to help them get more people to join their cause.

I also mentioned Han for a bit, so how does Han and him becoming a general factor into this? Well, in normal circumstances you don't promote someone who's belonged to the organization you're fighting to the status of general over night. In fact, you don't promote someone to general unless said person is actually qualified and has the experience. Han had neither. This proves that the Rebellion was more then a little haphazard in regards to who they allowed to be in charge.

Leo’s latest attempt at trying to skimp out on this involves shifting the burden of proof: I.e., he’s saying that I’m supposed to prove that she didn’t have any training. All I’ve done is point out that there is no evidence for this. And that sources going into detail on her life mentions nothing of the kind.

Re: Will the ODST inside the bunker be surprised and captured like the Rebels?

Your entire argument's a 'what if' scenario constructed on your pathetic fanboy Gary-Stuing about ODSTs based on nothing, you think I'm at all bothered by what you're sick and tired of?

A worthless attempt at trying to avoid the points raised.

How is this responsive to being surprised at the same time?

If you can't read then I can't help you. I've amended the summary to explain why your 'what if two are surprised at the same thing' doesn't change anything.

Originally Posted by Summary

The following started when I said that the ODST will not be surprised like the Rebels were, inside the bunker. The logic behind that was simple: Unlike the rebels the ODST probably knows how to maintain proper sentries. And by proper sentries I mean people watching all access points leading into the main area you’re in. You do this by posting people looking down the corridors leading into the area you’re trying to protect, and you have those people within line of sight of another trooper, so that if they’re disabled the rest will still know about it. It's an unbroken chain of people keeping an eye on each other, and thus they are better able to respond to any given problem. Now let's look at the Endor bunker again. A single room, and proper sentries guarding all the access points (assuming the ODST has minimal military training). This means that the sentries are within line-of-sight of everyone else inside that room. When it comes to the rebels they had no such sentries. If there were sentries they were captured without anyone else knowing – which pretty exclusively proves that they were not within line of sight of another trooper. We can see stormtroopers come running around a corner and no one is there to watch the hallway and give alarm. Therefore events will play out differently for the ODST and the rebels.

Leo’s rebuttal is to claim that because the Imperials hid in the walls it will be impossible to maintain effective sentry. But that is untrue since we can see exactly how they go about capturing the rebels, and all that was needed was proper sentries for the defenses to be effective. One guy looking down the hallway for where the stormtroopers came would be enough. It doesn’t matter if he sees the stormtroopers rounding the corner or jumping out from a concealed compartment – the end result is the same. Fire in the direction of the enemy and the squad-mates are alerted. [b]Since then Leo seems to be willfully ignoring the difference between what the rebels did and a proper sentry. He’s also claming that the troopers we can’t see are acting as sentries – even though he can’t prove as much.

There’s also a strawman argument Leo likes to repeat in this regards to this point: He’s claiming that I’ve said that no sentries can be taken by surprise. Had he read what I’ve been saying, then he should’ve noticed that I’ve said that if a proper sentry is taken by surprise, then the others will notice. Because a proper sentry in those circumstances is supposed to be within line of sight of the others.

Re: Assuming they were on the inside and the thing devolves into corridor fighting

I didn't see anything get blown 'sky high', I saw a bridge disappear in an explosion.

That is pretty much blown sky-high, unless you want to start the good old semantics whoring. Not all of it was completely pulverized, of course, but it was quite effectively destroyed and not simply made to fall into the water.

As for the placement of the charges, that’s a good point: Did you notice that they placed the charges above the bridge, not below where you should place the charges if all you want to do is take out the pillars? In order for these things to destroy the bridge, they'll have to actually blast the bridge underneath, since simply destroying the strut above bridge-level is going to do nothing.

Please don't insult people with functioning brains. PROVE that they had to set up traps. PROVE the village had to be 'rallied'.

We see Wicket turn tail and run towards the village, obviously to rally his fellow Ewoks and have them help free his captured friends. This takes time. And since they had traps there that seemed specifically designed to take out the STs and AT-STs, it's pretty logical to conclude that those would also have to be constructed.

Who says? You? Prove it. Quote the movie/novel/script/ etc that says Wicket went all the way back to the village.

So... you're saying that Wicket somehow informed the others via... what?

The Ewoks have gliders (battle), they have hunting parties / warbands (net trap), obviously far from their village.

So basically you're saying that Wicket found a nearby hunting party, who then sent flyers back to the village. That's completely baseless... and you know what? It still takes time.

* Luke stood around for how long in the Emperor's Throne Room before being called to the window?

And the problem? We have no idea what they were talking about during Luke's visit to the throne room. And we have no idea on how long it took.

* The space battle raged - without the Death Star opening fire - for how long?

And the problem? We have no idea how long the space battle lasted. Is there something that would point to it having been short?

* Lando didn't notice the Imperial fleet wasn't attacking - for how long?
* The Imperial fleet didn't manage to get into attack position until how long had passed?

These are just plain misleading. The rebel fleet actions are as follows between the start and end of the ambush: They drop out of hyperspace and begin their approach to the Death Star. They realize something is wrong and break off their attack. They notice the enemy fleet and the battle starts.

There's no telling how long all that takes from start to finish. And there was a lot more happening then Lando just sitting around to notice the capships weren't attacking.

* For some reason the Emperor let Luke stand at the window before giving the order to the Death Star to fire, for how long?

Again, is this something that's supposed to be significant? Is there something that says the Emperor was in any particular hurry to start shooting the Death Star superlaser?

the Imperial forces will of course be nearby the area they're tasked with defending as part of their planned ambush.

Or they're holding position a distance away in the hopes to avoid detection by the approaching rebels.

Again, prove it- at no point have you even tried to substantiate your Splaser BS.

The Spartan Lasers are anti-vehicle weapons. That means they can penetrate military-grade armor. That means they should do a decent job at destroying the bunker door. And if not - they also have the demo charges.

If you want to claim that they were all inside the bunker the whole time – then that plays into the ODST’s favor. They’ll be able to handle the Imperials inside the bunker far more easily then on the outside. Because the Imperials just gave up the one advantage they would’ve had on the outside, and not on the inside – the ability to overwhelm the enemy with numbers. Inside areas like the bunker, with rooms and corridors, there’s no chance to bring all that firepower down on the enemy all at once. In the forest, they could just surround the ODST and fire from every direction. Now they have to use whatever narrow hallways there are that leads to the ODST. That means the ODST can pick them off slowly, rather then being fired at by every single one of them all at once.

E-Webs are a non-issue, since setting them up in a bunker would basically make them one big static target for anyone with basic military training to take out. If someone was actually dumb enough to place one of these things up in a corridor or room, then quite naturally it would be destroyed. Why? Because the stormtroopers can’t move it around quickly enough. Basically, all it would take would be one guy peering around the corner to see it, and then either a short burst of gunfire, or even a grenade, and the operator and everything nearby would be destroyed.

Blasting the doors to get out would be easy as pie with either the Spartan Laser or explosive charges. The power of the explosive charges were such that they were able to destroy the bridge itself, and not merely the pillars holding it up, as is seen in the cinematic.

I’ll admit that it’s possible the AT-STs will get them once they get out. It’s the biggest threat I can see. But it’s by no means a sure thing, since the ODST do have weaponry capable of one-shotting them. In this case the Spartan Laser. And yes, Dutch will be armed with it. The above assumes that the AT-STs will get in place in time to prevent them to escape though. Which, given the amount of time passing between the rebels being captured and lead out into the clearing (based on the time it would take for Wicket to rally his village). This might not be so, seeing as how they were nowhere to be seen or heard when the ambush was sprung and they don’t move all that quickly.

Apparently I'll also need to go into a little more detail on the chronology of the battle. We know that between the ambush being sprung and the rebels being led out into the clearing Wicket would've had to summon the other Ewoks to the battle. This takes time. Wicket would first have to get himself back to his village. Then he would have to inform the others of what had happened and those others would've had to decide to come to the rescue. Basic attack plans would also have to have been devised, like the ambush the Ewoks first do in conjunction with C-3P0. Weapons would've had to have been gathered and then they would all have had to return to the bunker, informed C-3P0 of their plans, take up battle positions, and of course, construct the various traps. All the above takes time. I don't know the exact amount of minutes, but less then half-an-hour is pretty much impossible. Even if we assume all the traps were there from the beginning, it still takes time to do all this.

Re: Stormtrooper competence

Yeah, it's exactly what I said. See, for those who watched the movie, three out of five of those Stormtroopers are hiding behind the consoles in the background.

You think the two stormtroopers seen running back and forth in front of the entrance are the first to do so? There were others killed before them for doing the exact same thing. And what, you think that because three out of five STs are capable of not being utterly idiotic as opposed to just slightly idiotic makes things impressive?

Yeah, several dozen guys will all get shot by a fraction of their number- even though they have ample cover (apparently you think cover is a function of camouflage and not also an obstruction for incoming fire - military genius that you are ) and overwhelming firepower.

Yes, Leo, they will. Remember the battle of Endor, where Han, Leia and two droids manage to stand still in front of the bunker and survive for several minutes, with only two glancing hits to show for it? Now imagine someone standing there that's capable of even moderate aiming.

Besides, the above quote is a Red Herring. I am still talking about the sniper. If they take cover in the bushes then they will still get sniped. And if they chose to just sit there, they'll get sniped until there's no more bullets, or they're all dead.

Originally Posted by Summary

This is an age-old argument that's been repeated over and over again for more times then I care to remember. The point is preposterously simple: Stormtroopers are incompetent. In this thread this becomes relevant because they're up against guys that aren't incompetent.

So, the gauge how well they'd do against ODST inside a bunker facility with narrow corridors and small rooms, I decided it might be good to see how the Stormtroopers have done in similar situations in the movies. And the result is, oh so shockingly, that they're not all that good.

First up is the part where the stormtroopers try to get Han, Leia, Chewie and Luke and have chased them into the detention block area on the Death Star. Leo thought this was impressive. I'd say it's the exact opposite. First off, they're completely abysmal at taking cover, they're running back and forth in front of the entrance, exposing their heads and their shoulders for no reason what-so-ever. And because of that, a number of them get killed by barely aimed snapshots in the general direction of where they're standing. They also fail to get a single hit on any of the heroes. The conclusion then is simple: Replace the heroes with a team of ODST and the stormtroopers will die within five seconds. Either by the fact that the ODST don't have abysmal accuracy, or by a grenade thrown down the corridor.

Other incidents involve, surprise surprise, the battle of Endor. Where a number of people are able to stand in the opening of the bunker for several minutes, and only have two glancing hits to show for it. Replace those with ODST, and the forest will quickly be de-stromtroopered.

Re: Stormtrooper armor capabilities

Originally Posted by General Schatten

I notice there's no blood. You still don't have full penetration and we don't even know the composition of those spears.

I've shown you one spear penetrating clean through the chest-armor and out the back. And there's plenty of blood. And I've shown you two other pictures where spears are sticking out from the armor. There's not even any need for blood in the latter two - since the simple act of sticking out from the armor proves that the spears managed to penetrate it. Otherwise they would've just gone *plink* and then fallen to the ground.

I like how it doesn't say anything like what you've been saying, for example the lines about being more advanced and optimized against physical attacks would seem to back up our argument.

I'm sorry, but where in these two quotes does it say it's optimized against physical attacks?

Originally Posted by NEGTW

Each plate is manufactured using a lightweight plastoid-alloy composite that can withstand explosions, small firearms blasts, and even blaster bolts.

Originally Posted by NEGTW

Stormtrooper armor is simultaneously more advanced and less formidable then its clone trooper predecessor. While clone trooper armor is designed to sustain significant damage, a stormtrooper's plastoid shell protects only against glancing blaster blows and physical attacks.

I'm guessing you're one of those types of fanboys that go both blind and illiterate when confronted with something you don't like. The above says ST armor is worse then CT armor, in terms of protection.

And it’s: “More advanced and less formidable”. Do you understand what that means?

Oh, I know they exiwt

Then what are you whining about? Slugthrowers exist even in SW, they haven't been magicked away due to armor.

Well let's just use your source, Wookieepedia says it's true,

Lol what? First you say I can't use wookieepedia and throw a tantrum about how I’m so silly to be using it. And now that I've caught you unable to provide a quote for a claim you've made you turn right around and say I should look at the wookieepedia.

No. Let's keep this real consistent - you provide the quote you're required too. Now. Or concede.

You think you can handle that?

You mean the ones that were the size of a head?

Yes, even the largest rocks had less momentum then the spear in your C-canon source.

Only the parts of the novel that are portrayed by the movies are G-Canon, you have Phase I/II armour being penetrated which is of a different composition from stormtrooper,

Indeed. They're also stronger then ST armor. Thus the point you're trying to make is pretty moot.

and you've yet to evidence a full pentration of the armour in C-Canon.

I like how you've shifted the goalposts from 'penetration' to 'full-penetration'. A quick lesson in penetration might be in order: If a wooden spear is shown to penetrate plastoid armor, then it doesn't matter if it penetrated all the way through, because we already know that we're not talking about a case where the spear is unable to cut the material in question. And the rifles in this case are going to be more effective then that.

That's ignoring the fact that we've seen a spear penetrate all the way through a trooper, from front to back. Through the plastoid parts.

Originally Posted by Summary

The point was raised that stormtrooper armor would be too strong to be penetrated by bullets. I disagree.

First thing I did was to bring up these comic panels: One, Two. They clearly show stormtrooper armor being breached by wooden spears. One stormtrooper even has both front and back armor penetrated by a single spear. Shatten challenged this assertion that there was no penetration to the plastoid plates. I posted these two zooms to prove him wrong: One and Two. So what we have here is C-canon evidence that stormtrooper armor can be breached by simple wooden spears.

But C-canon isn't all that interesting, not when we have T-canon that shows us the same thing: Here. Another spear, this one apparently made of rock, being able to penetrate clone trooper armor. Schatten challenged this by saying that stormtrooper armor is better (but obviously failed to provide the evidence). I pointed out that both are made of the same material and then posted the following excerpts from the NEGWT:

The first quote is in relation to clone trooper armor and the second is in relation to stormtrooper armor. And the conclusion is simple: Clone trooper armor actually provided more protection the stormtrooper armor did.

Schatten appealed to Tusken Raider weaponry as evidence of slugthrowers being unable to penetrate stormtrooper armor. But they're A) not even normal slugthrowers, and B) there's no way to gauge how good they are. And since we've seen spears penetrate the armor...

The second commonly toted incident is the spear throw in another C-canon novel that was able to lift someone off their feet and slam them into a wall, with little but bruises left behind. But this incident contradicts even the movies. If stormtrooper armor is that good at protecting against blunt force trauma, then the rocks and the club hits the Ewoks were dishing out at Endor wouldn't even have been noticeable by the stormtroopers. And then there's T-canon showing it wrong. And then there's also other C-canon incidents showing it wrong.

[Lord Vespasian]

Originally Posted by l33telboi

The thing is - we don't need to speculate. We know there's LOS from there. And you have absolutely nothing that would say otherwise. The only thing you have is a “there shouldn’t be a LOS there”. Which kinda fades away when you realize that the movie shows us there is.

Excepting, of course, that it's plain to anyone with functioning eyes that Threepio couldn't have LOS from where he's standing.

Visual proof > l33telboi's incompetent analysis.

You haven't even read what I've posted, have you? If you want to guard a place like the bunker, then you'll do it by sending one guy into the forest. He'll take good visual cover from where he can monitor his surroundings and the bunker. Then, if he spots an enemy, he's job is to inform the others, so that they're prepared for the ambush.

ODST wouldn't be prepared for an ambush inside an enemy facility they're attempting to infiltrate? What a bunch of retards.

Not that it'll do them any good, since they're outnumbered more than 1300 to 1.

Basically there are no cameras anywhere in the facility that would show that everyone of those who previously guarded said facility is now dead or captured? And when the Rebels run back into the facility no one manages to trip the alarm? There’s no one monitoring the status of their troops or trying to keep in contact with them. So the rebels are free to set their charges at their own leisure.

I do like how you're just making shit up in a desperate attempt to salvage what little argument you ever had. But, by all means, keep extrapolating baseless nonsense from a five second scene.

I must've missed the 8000 troops. To me it looked more like a little over a dozen.

Did you fall and hit your head recently? Why would they empty out their facility to chase after the routed survivors?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering you can't even count without fucking up.

I'm pointing out that they didn't use their 8000 troops when they were being assaulted by the Ewoks and the rebels got loose. This then demonstrates that the Imperials, for whatever reason, doesn’t want to commit their forces to the battle.

No shit. Only a blithering retard would commit an entire facility's garrison...

No wonder you think they'll do that.

…If those 8000 troops even exist.

"An entire legion of my best troops awaits them."

You know, for someone who claims to have a copy on your hard drive, you sure don't really know very much.

Not to mention that the above is something of a red herring. The stormtroopers aren't up against trademarked evil minions. Not that I love that you're trying to use character shields as a defense in a versus debate. Especially when they’re up against another set of main characters now.

I see the point sailed rather nicely over your head. No surprises there.

I've seen nothing that would indicate as much. Arrows, spears and pretty much everything cut through it.

It's funny how you cite the Wookieepedia article on slugthrowers, but somehow it never occurs to you to look at their article on stormtrooper armor.

For fuck's sake, they even make use of old flintlock rifles in the EU, and there's a zillion other commonly used slughtrowers:

Ah yes, a five-thousand year old weapon. Clearly an indicative example.

[l33telboi]

Re: C-3P0 and his position relative to the bunker

Originally Posted by Lord Vespasian

Excepting, of course, that it's plain to anyone with functioning eyes that Threepio couldn't have LOS from where he's standing.

Show us. Last time you tried you posted a pic of C-3P0 standing in a different position to where he was when he said he'll be staying put. Show us a pic of him standing there without LOS to the bunker.

It's going to be kinda hard, since the movie shows the exact opposite.

Originally Posted by Summary

Fact: C-3P0 can see the bunker. This much is shown in the movie so it's pointless to argue against it.

You speculate that he can't because of his position, but in truth you have no way of verifying that claim. You earlier tried to use a misleading pic to support your position, but I then pointed out that it was in fact misleading, and not an accurate depiction of where C-3P0 was standing at the time he saw the bunker. Which means that the remaining evidence you have is... nothing. Yet you don't seem to understand that this means your argument is forfeit until you can come up with some new evidence.

And I repeat what's been said a billion times but doesn't seem to register - This makes absolutely no difference. Whether he has a line of sight to the bunker or not does not change the fact that he's still close to it and avoided detection. What makes it worse is that he's a bright golden in cover, doesn't seem to mind being loud, and isn't even trying to take cover. This means that an ODST in the same position would be much better off, and since C-3P0 avoided detection - so would he.

Re: The 8000 stormtroopers that were oddly missing from the battle

Why would they empty out their facility to chase after the routed survivors?

I said they didn't send these 8000 reinforcements out even after their people on the outside were assaulted by Ewoks and the rebels escaped. You said they did send out reinforcements. And I pointed out there weren't more then a handful of them and the 8000 soldiers were curiously missing.

So what part confused you?

"An entire legion of my best troops awaits them."

I'm very well of the quote, but as was already pointed out: Palpatine might've exaggerating to get a rise out of Luke. This is quite possible given the somewhat strange lack of an entire legion of his best troops on the planet.

Originally Posted by Summary

The claim is that these 8000 stormtroopers that were supposedly at the bunker would attack the ODST, even though they never got involved in the battle in the movie. My stance is that we have no reason to assume so. If there were 8000 soldiers at the bunker then they chose not to get involved for one reason or another. They didn't do so when the rebels escaped and the bunker came under attack from Ewoks. Even when rebels were running around inside planting explosive charges they chose not to act. Thus - there's no reason to assume they'll do anything different in this scenario.

Vespasian seems to think that if the ODST resist they will attack. That's a baseless assumption. And quite obviously rather illogical considering they chose not to attack when the rebels and Ewoks fought back.

In fact, these 8000 troopers being missing is odd to the point where it’s possible Palpatine was just exaggerating to provoke an emotional response in Luke. Be that as it may, the bottom line is: The stormtroopers weren’t there in the movie and there’s no reason to think things have changed now.

Re: Stromtrooper competence and gear

It's funny how you cite the Wookieepedia article on slugthrowers, but somehow it never occurs to you to look at their article on stormtrooper armor.

I did. Guess what I did then? I followed the citation to the source: The NEGWT. The citation there is actually why I checked the book. Guess what? There's no mention of stormtrooper armor being somehow imune or even impressive against slughtrowers. In fact, it says exactly what I've quoted in this thread already.

Funny thing is that I actually look up the real sources.

You apparently don't.

Ah yes, a five-thousand year old weapon. Clearly an indicative example.

The weapons then and the weapons now are the exact same. Anyone who's played Kotor knows this.

Originally Posted by Summary

The argument is simple: I'm claiming that the difference in competence between ODST and stormtroopers will allow them to fight of stormtroopers if inside the bunker. The reasoning behind this is based on the fact that we've seen Stormtroopers in hallway battles before, and trying to prevent people from escaping, and their showings have been... shall we say, less then stellar.

If need be we can go into details. But most already know this as fact.

Another argument was in regards to equipment, with the claim being that the weapons and armor on the stormtroopers was better. In some ways that's true, sure, in other ways, not so much. The blasters have lower rates of fire and lower projectile velocity. They're also less accurate, though that might be an issue with the stormtroopers and not the weapons. They have more armor and are more powerful (on higher settings) though. Better armor? Hardly. The ODST armor is supposed to be effective against their own weapons and it can also take some pretty decent physical impacts without much trouble (and by this I mean impacts that send the ODST flying). In contrast - stormtrooper armor can be penetrated by spears and the physical impacts from the stones were enough to knock them cold or kill them (despite not sending them through the air).

In addition to this the ODST are equipped with a lot more then just their standard weapon. Grenades, demolition packs, spartan laser, sniper rifle, etc. The grenades being particularly problematic for the stormies in close quarters combat, considering they like to form clumps.

One thing I noticed when debating with you is that you tend to increase the number of pointless and impotent flames the further the debate progresses. Until most of your posts are nothing more then these flames and completely devoid of any actual point or argument. It'll be fun to watch as the quotes below this increases and the quotes above it increases steadily.

So I give you something I like to call... The pointless ravings of a hysterical fan-wanker:

Visual proof > l33telboi's incompetent analysis.

ODST wouldn't be prepared for an ambush inside an enemy facility they're attempting to infiltrate? What a bunch of retards.

I do like how you're just making shit up in a desperate attempt to salvage what little argument you ever had.

Did you fall and hit your head recently?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering you can't even count without fucking up.

No shit. Only a blithering retard would commit an entire facility's garrison...

No wonder you think they'll do that.

You know, for someone who claims to have a copy on your hard drive, you sure don't really know very much.

I see the point sailed rather nicely over your head. No surprises there.