Forerunners Vs Ancients

[Dessolution]

Originally Posted by Don Blake

Your individual words make sense, and I even get the message you're trying to impart, but the actual sentences fall apart. A limited space cause in SGverse? Clearly, this is a koan. I study at your feet- enlighten me, master.

I was a little distracted when I made that post so for that, I'm sorry. What I'm saying is, to know all of that, even without apparently "ascending" to get the "vast data of the universe", theoretically one should basically become a Q like being in comparison, or at the very least close to it. And yet they still use metal? I really don't think the writers thought much about the Ancients when they came up with it...

imo anyway. You don't need to "ascend" as an excuse to achieve godhood.

[SpartanElite]

Originally Posted by Brellin

Forerunner capital ships are each capable of stellar implosion.

It's noted that the Forerunner fleet is capable of such a thing, but it never says "each individual capital ship".

Originally Posted by AceRaptor

FTL speed seems to be in the favor of the Forerunners

Not really. Forerunner FTL is about 100 ly/hr based off of a Forerunner ship taking four days to cover what a Covenant ship took 11 days, with Covenant FTL being about 40 ly/hr according to GoO (also, to preempt the argument for those +1000 ly/hr claim, please note that said calculation was based off of assumptions on both the Halo's distance and an absurdly small timeframe of hours instead of days).

On the other hand, aside from the intergalactic hyperspace drives, hyper drives are generally faster.

The Ark provides faster FTL, but it's more comparable to the Stargates than standard FTL. Based off of what we know, it's pretty much like a fifty kilometer large slipspace drive.

[A Puzzled Mind]

Originally Posted by SpartanElite

It's noted that the Forerunner fleet is capable of such a thing, but it never says "each individual capital ship".

Not really. Forerunner FTL is about 100 ly/hr based off of a Forerunner ship taking four days to cover what a Covenant ship took 11 days, with Covenant FTL being about 40 ly/hr according to GoO (also, to preempt the argument for those +1000 ly/hr claim, please note that said calculation was based off of assumptions on both the Halo's distance and an absurdly small timeframe of hours instead of days).

On the other hand, aside from the intergalactic hyperspace drives, hyper drives are generally faster.

The Ark provides faster FTL, but it's more comparable to the Stargates than standard FTL. Based off of what we know, it's pretty much like a fifty kilometer large slipspace drive.

I think we'll get a confirmation when Greg Bear's book comes out.

[Monster104]

Originally Posted by SpartanElite

Not really. Forerunner FTL is about 100 ly/hr based off of a Forerunner ship taking four days to cover what a Covenant ship took 11 days, with Covenant FTL being about 40 ly/hr according to GoO (also, to preempt the argument for those +1000 ly/hr claim, please note that said calculation was based off of assumptions on both the Halo's distance and an absurdly small timeframe of hours instead of days).

IIRC, the Covenant only ever got the Keyship operating at 10% of power, Forerunner FTL is likely much faster than the Covenant ever got it to go. Plus, Truth didn't exactly seem to be in a hurry to get to Earth, considering he spent something like a week traveling at sublight speed traveling from the edge of the Sol System to Earth. So I'm really not sure how you can use such an obviously lowball number as anything other than a low end estimate.

Hell, 1,000+ ly/hr is probably easily doable for a Keyship in proper operating condition.

[Silveraith]

Atlantis fully powered traveled the 3 million light year void between galaxies in less then 24 hours. How fast would that make it?

EDIT: On the low end of the scale that's approx. 125,000 light years an hour.

[Sayle]

Originally Posted by Monster104

Hell, 1,000+ ly/hr is probably easily doable for a Keyship in proper operating condition.

So let me get this straight, because this is wishful thinking. The argument is that Truth wasn't 'in a hurry', so the engines weren't going as fast as they could of. They only had 10% power, and this power was clearly equally distributed to all systems, so the drive was only operating at 10% power. Clearly.

It's wishful thinking, you don't know. So I'm really not sure as to how you can definitively state this as anything more than your own opinion.

Did you see what I did that? And did you see what I did with what I did there? Double layered irony.

[Aaron Fox]

Until the Forerunner books come out, we can't say who wins or loses.

Have a nice day.

[Anathema]

Originally Posted by Sayle

So let me get this straight, because this is wishful thinking. The argument is that Truth wasn't 'in a hurry', so the engines weren't going as fast as they could of. They only had 10% power, and this power was clearly equally distributed to all systems, so the drive was only operating at 10% power. Clearly.

It's wishful thinking, you don't know. So I'm really not sure as to how you can definitively state this as anything more than your own opinion.

Did you see what I did that? And did you see what I did with what I did there? Double layered irony.

It's clearly stated in Contact Harvest that the Covenant only ever got the dreadnought's engines fractionally operational, and even then it was several times faster than any other Covenant ship.

If I recall correctly, the best example of Covenant FTL speeds we have is when they traveled from one Halo to another in about three weeks time. Assuming the logical one in the center, six in a circle setup the closest any array should be to another is about 50,000ly.

And to preempt any crap about "we don't know the Halos are setup like that" - well, every indication is that they are. The effective radius of a Halo array is 25,000ly and arranged in the way described above they should have coverage of the entire galaxy. Plus we've seen Halos fire, there is no fancy intertwining synergistic interboosting wizardry, they just make a big sphere of death.

[SpartanElite]

Originally Posted by Monster104

IIRC, the Covenant only ever got the Keyship operating at 10% of power, Forerunner FTL is likely much faster than the Covenant ever got it to go.

Slipspace is not like other science fiction FTL from what we've seen, though. There isn't evidence of power effecting how fast a ship goes; in fact, IIRC if you have insufficient power to run the drive properly you vaporize your ship. We know Covenant ships have some safeties in place, allowing Blue team to jump with 98% power or something like that, but what these safety systems are isn't stated (like spare power/emergency capacitor/luck or some such).

Hell, 1,000+ ly/hr is probably easily doable for a Keyship in proper operating condition.

The Beastarium puts transgalactic FTL at a level above Forerunner technology, IIRC, along with creating/accelerating sentient life.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Originally Posted by AceRaptor

... Forerunners are inept?

Absolutely. You don't put an AI in control of a large battlefleet when that AI can be convinced to turn against you by shaky rhetoric. :\

Also, you know, having ships crewed by organic beings instead of AI when you've got fully intelligent AI anyway. Doubly so when your enemy eats people and groks their memories in seconds, but takes considerably longer to do so to machines. If they can do that to machines at all.

Edit: Which isn't to say the Alterans are better. They're just as dumb too.

[Chris O'Farrell]

Yeah, its not like the Ancients attempt at making AI's exactly covered itself in Glory (Asurans).

But at least they had the f*#(ing sense to HARDCODE them so it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to turn against their masters, and impossible for them to edit that level of code.


At BEST Forerunner FTL speed is on the order of some of the slower Goa'uld hyperdrives. Period. Otherwise all we have is a huge amount of assumptions and theories. Even the placement of the HALO's has never been confirmed, for ALL we know, the HALO's are all in very close proximity to each other and when activated, they somehow boost and amplify each others effect. Because it makes more sense then other theories, given the travel times to the two HALOs in the three games, and back from Earth as well.

You do have one-off technology like the slipstream portal, but we don't really know much about them. If, for example, they are 'hard coded', oriented or designed to project a portal to a single location, and need a lot of time and work to point it to a new location. The only one we've seen after all appears to go too and from the Arc. Heck, we don't even know for sure that The Arc itself didn't have some kind of systems that made it possible to receive the portal. After all, SOMETHING had to be generating the portal back to Earth, although oddly they didn't come out of one on arrival...

The only real sources we have for the Covenant - Flood war are the Terminals in HALO-3 (controlled by a deranged AI that betrayed the Forerunners) and Cortanas 'breifing' in HALO Legends, which if taken literally should give this fight to the Ancients on pure principal.

Interestingly, the Ancients comprable HALO superweapon in the Dakara device would have arguably been the perfect anti-flood weapon. Frankly, I think a more interesting idea would have been if the Ancients or Forerunners millions of years ago had somehow opened a rift or gateway to each other, the later starting to get desperate looking for a way to escape the flood threat, the former looking for a way to escape the plauge in the MW before heading to Pegasus with Atlantis...instead heading to the HALOverse, and joining the fight.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Farrell

Frankly, I think a more interesting idea would have been if the Ancients or Forerunners millions of years ago had somehow opened a rift or gateway to each other, the later starting to get desperate looking for a way to escape the flood threat, the former looking for a way to escape the plauge in the MW before heading to Pegasus with Atlantis...instead heading to the HALOverse, and joining the fight.

Oh... damn. That's going to bring a Vlad Tepes end to quite a good many things.
Hell, why not add the Chozo?

[Brellin]

There's already a fic out there that has a Halo/SG cross where the Ancients/Forerunners allied themselves. Hell I think the summary was something along the lines of "and they stumbled onto an alliance so ancient that no one even remembered it". IIRC both the Ancients and Forerunners still died out, and it was really just a convient way for the MC and Spartans stuck in the Dyson Sphere to get booted into the SG reality over in Pegasus. Was still a good story though, just don't think it ever got finished.

As for the debate...Time Travel = Ancients win. Assuming equal levels of compitence (where compitence = actually being intelligent with use of technology) then the Ancients should win simply because they have so many different types of time travel they can use to wipe out the Forerunners back when they weren't a threat.

Of course, then the Ancients risk running into the Precursors, whom would absolutely raepstomp the fuck out of the Ancients.

[Captain Orsai]

Originally Posted by SpartanElite

Slipspace is not like other science fiction FTL from what we've seen, though. There isn't evidence of power effecting how fast a ship goes;

Yes, there is;

The Redoubtable, the Paris and the Coral Sea, with their larger engines, had moved ahead in the Slipstream wake.
- Ghosts of Onyx, pg. 187

[Sayle]

Larger engines. Not power. Point stands.

[darleyboy]

Originally Posted by Sayle

Larger engines. Not power. Point stands.

Larger engines = more power shoved into engines = more power.

[Sayle]

Originally Posted by darleyboy

Larger engines = more power shoved into engines = more power.

Interesting assumption(Read: No.). But just an assumption. It could just as easily mean that larger engines are able to generate a more efficent means of propulsion because of their greater size, and no extra power is required.

That doesn't even apply to some engines already developed in aviation and the like. It's a silly comment.

[Chris O'Farrell]

Originally Posted by Brellin

Of course, then the Ancients risk running into the Precursors, whom would absolutely raepstomp the fuck out of the Ancients.

*raises eyebrow*

You may now prove you case, using detailed examples, quotes and sources leaving nothing out, since I don't have a clue who you are talking about...

[avatar11792]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Farrell

*raises eyebrow*

You may now prove you case, using detailed examples, quotes and sources leaving nothing out, since I don't have a clue who you are talking about...

The Precursors were the predessor race to before the Forerunners. Supposedly the Precursors' tech is what Forerunner tech is based off of.

[Lord Xelkor]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Farrell

*raises eyebrow*

You may now prove you case, using detailed examples, quotes and sources leaving nothing out, since I don't have a clue who you are talking about...

Neither did I, but I searched a bit and found info.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Precursor

Dammit Chris, it doesnt take much to put "Precursor" and "Halo," into a search bar.

[Chris O'Farrell]

Originally Posted by avatar11792

The Precursors were the predessor race to before the Forerunners. Supposedly the Precursors' tech is what Forerunner tech is based off of.

So after reading that Halopedia (which is a source I always take with a large dose of salt) entry, in effect, we know jack and s*#( about them and what they are capable of?

[Silveraith]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Farrell

So after reading that Halopedia (which is a source I always take with a large dose of salt) entry, in effect, we know jack and s*#( about them and what they are capable of?

Aside from being better then the Forerunners. It still gives us little information to help decide who would win.

[Chris O'Farrell]

Originally Posted by Silveraith

Aside from being better then the Forerunners.

It doesn't tell us that at all. If the scale on Halopedia is supposed to be accurate, all it says is " It is suspected that they can travel across galaxies and accelerate the evolution of intelligent life."

Big deal, the Ancients do that themselves. The scale is also highly missleading, after all, Humans are Tier 3, Forerunners are Tier 1. Yet Cortana was able to happily f#*k over Forerunner computer systems, human weapons technology is perfectly sufficent against Foreunner weapons and defensive technology, if the sheer number of Enforcers and Sentials I blew to hell in HALO-2 is any indication...

Taking this scale as an absoloute and claiming 'Oh, these guys would kick the Ancients asses because they are higher then the Forerunners' is entirely missleading, unless we have any kind of real examples to work with of what they can DO.

[ProphetofWisdom]

Originally Posted by Chris O'Farrell

Big deal, the Ancients do that themselves. The scale is also highly missleading, after all, Humans are Tier 3, Forerunners are Tier 1. Yet Cortana was able to happily f#*k over Forerunner computer systems,

You mean in Halo 1 when she slapped down GS? Might have something to do with 12 hours spent in the Core and all that data she had access to etc.etc.

human weapons technology is perfectly sufficent against Foreunner weapons and defensive technology, if the sheer number of Enforcers and Sentials I blew to hell in HALO-2 is any indication...

And thousands of the OVS's that make up the planet Onyx were able to vaproize unshielded Covenant warships. Their a a sphere with three booms surrounding the eye each three meters long and can combine into formations ranging from two up to the planet Onyx itself.

Taking this scale as an absoloute and claiming 'Oh, these guys would kick the Ancients asses because they are higher then the Forerunners' is entirely missleading, unless we have any kind of real examples to work with of what they can DO.

Completely agreed.

[Chris O'Farrell]

Originally Posted by ProphetofWisdom

You mean in Halo 1 when she slapped down GS? Might have something to do with 12 hours spent in the Core and all that data she had access to etc.etc.

Yes and if Forerunner computer technology was so impossibly advanced over Human tech there is no way in HELL she should have been able to hack GS, let alone steal all the data in the core, let ALONE the activation key for a bloody Galaxy Destroying superweapon! I mean you would expect, for this tier to hold true for each level being impossibly beyond each previous level, Cortana to be an Apple IIe trying to hack a Quad core i7 running Windows 7...

And thousands of the OVS's that make up the planet Onyx were able to vaproize unshielded Covenant warships. Their a a sphere with three booms surrounding the eye each three meters long and can combine into formations ranging from two up to the planet Onyx itself.

Yes I have read the book. A planet sized weapons system can kill small, in comparision, capital ships, which is something you would exepct even in situations of otherwise equal technology and firepower. The forerunners build things BIG, we know this, I'm arguging that on a point for point basis when you get past the huge scale, there just is no justification for the idea that ONE level above the Forerunners would kick the Ancients all over the place.

Since the START of this thread we've had people saying again and again that the Foreunners build big, WAY bigger then anything the Ancients ever looked at. But when the Ancients can just toss a rigged ZPM into Onyx and shrug, it really doesn't make me that impressed that it will matter THAT much.