Taskforce 43 (ST/B5 x-over)

[WMRS in GSD]

Nice Ship, so that's the Luna class

[3D Master]

Ah, but who says the EA only sent English?

The Minbari are a bunch of arrogant buggers completely devoid of first contact protocol as well, only Dukhat would have had the competence to pull it off right, as evidenced by his rather shocked response that they opened gun ports and powered weapons. "What!?" he says as the messenger tells him. You can see the realization of the disaster forming on his face. At the same time, they seclusive and keep away from anyone else. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the Minbari know hardly any other languages out there, and simply none of the languages tried by EA the Minbari knew. That is, of course, if the limited means of transmission by the EA wasn't so scrambled by the sensor beam of the Minbari "not understanding" is even talking about the language, and not that the signal itself was so garbled they couldn't make any heads or tails of it.

It's rather something that Londo also says in the beginning of "In The Beginning". Both the Humans and the Minbari were a bunch of arrogant pricks, both sides made one compounding mistake after another.

You don't send an entire fleet to spy and make first contact with a species, regardless of the captain. You don't send someone gun happy (even if in this case any other captain would probably have drawn the same conclusions and did the same things).

You don't fire off a massively powerful sensor beam at tiny primitive ships. Even if you do, and your sensors and thus you should now notice what effect the sensor has on the ships, you turn it back off. You do not open gun ports and power them facing the ships who never met you and don't know your culture, regardless of the status of your ships - and you most certainly do NOT do it while your sensor beam is scrambling a butt load of their systems.

Finally, when the group reacts with weapons fire in that situation, and has only targeted your sensors that were crippling them and then leave, you do not consider them evil barbarians who make a surprise attack and decide the whole lot of them need to be slaughtered.

Quite frankly, I find the Minbari more at fault than the EA in this matter.


In addition: I don't see why the Federation wouldn't interfere. They can't hide forever, sooner or later they have to step out of their hiding place. And no regulation says one can't mediate, and put yourself in between opposing forces. The PD says you can't interfere in INTERNAL affairs of foreign powers. External affairs are free game.

[Emperor Tiberius]

I got the bit about them only sending the message in English, because I remember a scene from "in the Beginning", where a trusted Minbari Lieutenant says something along the lines of "they are transmitting, but we do not understand their language". I am at work, so cannot track down the exact quote, but I seem to remember the key word being "language", and not "languages". I doubt I have the quote word for word, and am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

And if the EA DID send their greeting in multiple languages, then as 3D Master says, a good part of the blame should be put on the Minbari: they're more than advanced enough to put together automated translation software, which should be able to understand Centauri, Abbai, Markab, etc, all COMMON languages. If the Grey Council's Flagship really lacked the ability to translate these centuries old, and commonly used languages, then their isolationist heads really are so far up their collective behinds, that it beggars belief.

[KCKitsune]

The Minbari are totally to blame. You don't commit genocide on a race for killing one person! That is the height of evil.

[Mellian]

Originally Posted by 3D Master

I'd like to point out, that if the guy never read that crossover, the sarcasm is holely lost on him, and all he sees is an agreement.

Meh.

To make more productive use of this post...keep in mind folks when suggesting AI avatars base on fictional characters that generally appeared in the late 1990s and early 21st century like in real life...Trek Earth has a different history with their 20th ending with the Eugenic Wars. That in itself would diverge history and may cause trek history to have a somewhat different fiction.

-mellian

[3D Master]

Originally Posted by Mellian

Meh.

To make more productive use of this post...keep in mind folks when suggesting AI avatars base on fictional characters that generally appeared in the late 1990s and early 21st century like in real life...Trek Earth has a different history with their 20th ending with the Eugenic Wars. That in itself would diverge history and may cause trek history to have a somewhat different fiction.

Voyager's End of Time tells us that the Eugenic Wars were somehow postponed until the 21st century.

[adm-frb]

Originally Posted by KCKitsune

The Minbari are totally to blame. You don't commit genocide on a race for killing one person! That is the height of evil.

Or the height of uncontrolled grief.

And the correct term is not genocide, it's speciecide: The extermination of an entire species.

I know Delenn used the term "genocide", but she shouldn't have. You can blame JMS for that mistake.

[BobDL]

As an older guy on the board I was thinking a little differently when picturing which actresses could be used as avatars for the Valkyries. Please give your opinions on the following two suggestions. Thanks,

BobDL

Sandahl Bergman, she was in Conan the Barbarian.

http://www.icelebz.com/celebs/sandah...an/photo9.html

and Brigitte Nielsen, she was in Red Sonja.

http://celebrity.com.ne.kr/warrior/red/red002.jpg

(The more modern girls seemed to be too feminine and weak looking. IMO don't valkyries need to be the kind of women that don't take no for an answer?)

[tahu1809]

Originally Posted by adm-frb

Or the height of uncontrolled grief.

And the correct term is not genocide, it's speciecide: The extermination of an entire species.

I know Delenn used the term "genocide", but she shouldn't have. You can blame JMS for that mistake.

Actually I think it called xenocide.

[Zcenicx]

Originally Posted by 3D Master

In addition: I don't see why the Federation wouldn't interfere. They can't hide forever, sooner or later they have to step out of their hiding place. And no regulation says one can't mediate, and put yourself in between opposing forces. The PD says you can't interfere in INTERNAL affairs of foreign powers. External affairs are free game.

Which is why the Federation not only sent an observer, but is also mobilizing. They won't allow Earth to be bombed back into the stone age, but they won't help Earth wage war either. It's a fine line I'll be trying to write in.

Originally Posted by WMRS in GSD

Nice Ship, so that's the Luna class

Yup.
And I've already decided to use that specific class of ship. Not gonna go back and rewrite the spacedock parts of the next chapters. (yes, I actually wrote parts of 20-23 already...)

[Vianca]

Originally Posted by 3D Master

Voyager's End of Time tells us that the Eugenic Wars were somehow postponed until the 21st century.

Enterprise tells us why, Temperal Cold War.



Now that would be a good one.
Just before the Vorlons/Shadows can attack an certain ship/place, a ship of the Federation Time Police arrives.

Can you say:

[JovianJeff]

Magnificient update Z! Wonderful tension, great point of views from a variety of sources and I am glad you skipped the ones we know. It was a good decision to just do this one from the pov of the starfleeters.

What I loved on a personal level was going into this knowing what would happen, the tension being what might change. Nothing did in the end, but it still added a great suspense to my reading experience.

While I would have liked the saving of Dukhat, he had to die for the war to get started. Otherwise the intensity of the war would not have been so great to motivate EA to built Babylons 1-5. Ultimately changing your story which I wouldn't want.

Thank you for Chapter 19 and looking forward to the next one.

Jeff

[ali-sama]

Originally Posted by adm-frb

Or the height of uncontrolled grief.

And the correct term is not genocide, it's speciecide: The extermination of an entire species.

I know Delenn used the term "genocide", but she shouldn't have. You can blame JMS for that mistake.

The Minbari language might not have the right word for it. Or the same word is used for both.

ALi

Originally Posted by BobDL

As an older guy on the board I was thinking a little differently when picturing which actresses could be used as avatars for the Valkyries. Please give your opinions on the following two suggestions. Thanks,

BobDL

Sandahl Bergman, she was in Conan the Barbarian.

http://www.icelebz.com/celebs/sandah...an/photo9.html

and Brigitte Nielsen, she was in Red Sonja.

http://celebrity.com.ne.kr/warrior/red/red002.jpg

(The more modern girls seemed to be too feminine and weak looking. IMO don't valkyries need to be the kind of women that don't take no for an answer?)

nice.
I want to show pics of the ones i recommended.(3 pics of each)
Diya mirza(exotic german/indian mix)
http://utopianvision.co.uk/bollywood...es/diya-mirza/
http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpap...ya_mirza_1.jpg
http://www.khojhyderabad.com/Ent/Wal...20Mirza/04.jpg

Kristen Bell
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/t...1021043253.jpg
http://www.rgj.com/blogs/rgjtv/uploa...ll3-703851.jpg
http://www.givememyremote.com/remote...nboys-leia.jpg

Megan fox
http://images.askmen.com/galleries/c...-picture-1.jpg
http://www.psxextreme.com/wallpapers...gan_fox_01.jpg
http://2clicks.files.wordpress.com/2...60511carly.jpg

[BobDL]

Originally Posted by ali-sama

I want to show pics of the ones i recommended.(3 pics of each)
Diya mirza(exotic german/indian mix)

Kristen Bell

Megan fox

Nice looking girls, my preference is for Kristen Bell. Yet, as I mentioned before they are soft looking girls. Not the kind of girls that can kick your butt.

Are there any modern, Nordic looking girls, Valkyries are from the NORSE mythos, that are both attractive and appear to be able to kick ass? I don't know of any. That's why I dug up Sandahl and Brigitte for you.

BobDL

[tryglaw]

Originally Posted by BobDL

Nice looking girls, my preference is for Kristen Bell. Yet, as I mentioned before they are soft looking girls. Not the kind of girls that can kick your butt.

Are there any modern, Nordic looking girls, Valkyries are from the NORSE mythos, that are both attractive and appear to be able to kick ass? I don't know of any. That's why I dug up Sandahl and Brigitte for you.

BobDL

For Valkyries, one should aim for chicks of the Nordic type - natural blue-eyed blondes.

[BobDL]

Originally Posted by tryglaw

For Valkyries, one should aim for chicks of the Nordic type - natural blue-eyed blondes.

Yes, we are reading from the same book. Don't forget there are redheaded Nordics too.

BobDL

[Barricade]

Use Catherine Bell, from JAG. She fills out a uniform in all the right places, IRL speaks 4 languages, and can probably kick your ass if you look at her funny.

[Gosu]

Originally Posted by MageOhki

Clear then. he was totally Right. he did NOTHING wrong.

Over and BEYOUND the level of requirements, in fact.

Now that it was the WRONG decision, in hindsight, dosn't change anything. His ships, as FAR as he COULD tell were at hazard.

My two cents (and I just picked one post at random, so many too choose from):

Jankowski went beyond his orders apparently for personal glory ("They'll be passing medals by the bucket ..."), which is not a very good trait in an officer. He was in fact known it, which is not a good trait in anything but a war and a skipper of expendable assets.

That said.

He didn't leave a rear guard, he took his whole force in. This is partly a science fiction staple, single ship/fleet against the enemy, but I imagine scout forces in real life would leave an observer in the rear. To report back if the main force is obliterated, and to make opposing forces think: if we take the welcoming committee, that one will take off and tell on us. It wouldn't have made any difference to the story, but it's a mistake, albeit an in-genre one.

And he opened fire. He shouldn't have. Not just in hindsight, but this was first contact and he knew nothing about the enemy except that they were more advanced.
I admit it looked bad from his side, being unable to escape and enemy weapons at the ready, but he still initiated hostilities with a superior force. If his RoE didn't involve a line 'fire only if fired upon' (which it oughta have) he still should have made certain the Minbari were hostile rather than making sure they became hostile. Because until the first shot was fired, he just didn't know.

Does that mean that his force could have been wiped out had the Minbari been hostile and he didn't react? Yes, it might have meant that. That's what the rear guard is for, and that's the risk of the job. Because they're aliens, doing alien things in alien ways. Jankowski forgot that, acted as if they were humans doing a very human thing the human way, and almost got his specied wiped out.

Originally Posted by MageOhki

I also don't blame the Mibari.
They didn't know their sensors were trashing the EA (natural assumption the winners of the Dilgar war were more powerful than they were) and didn't have the langauage.

Again, they are alien, doing alien things. For them it's very normal to approach with gunports open ... very stupid from a human cultural and logical viewpoint, but they're not human are they.

Blame the Minbari (some do it as much as EarthForce)? They didn't approach with their guns armed 'just in case' but out of tradition. They didn't come unprepared to the party, they didn't know there was going to be a party. And they didn't fire first.

[BobDL]

Originally Posted by Barricade

Use Catherine Bell, from JAG. She fills out a uniform in all the right places, IRL speaks 4 languages, and can probably kick your ass if you look at her funny.

Yes, she is the right type of woman, but she isn't Nordic which is a requirement for a Valkyrie. The same goes for Mariska Hargitay, another good looking ass kicker. Perhaps a new thread needs to be started to list good looking, ass kicking women. Michelle Forbes and Katie Sackhoff can be on that list too.

Now, Katie Sackhoff fits the bill. (What is her eye color and is she a real blonde?)

BobDL

Edit: Denise Crosby fits in here somewhere.

[Barricade]

Not only that but Jankowski did/didn't:

1. Put out a forward scout/pointman ahead of the taskforce.
2. Deploy a rearguard that could have ran at the first sign of trouble.
3. Didn't prepare a RoE, or be given a RoE that made it clear not to fire first unless fired upon.
4. Didn't have a RoE prepared, or be given a RoE that made it clear that what appears to be a provacative/hostile act that does NOT involve being fired upon does not allow the taskforce to fire back.
5. He ran STRAIGHT back to his main staging base, giving the Minbari instant access to EA's maps of their territory. He did not run a dogleg, zig-zag, or double-backed at all, or any kind of deceptive course changes.
6. When he did finally give the order to fire, it was widely dispersed and made no attempt to cripple or finish off the target with concentrated firepower (note that the Minbari's stealth was DOWN during that initial meeting). Utterly destroying the Sharlin/Shargotti might have made the Minbari a long more cautious - after all, since when did a lesser race actually destroy a Minbari warship in the last 1,000 years?
7. Did NOT attempt to run first, or even back away when the Minbari began to close in on his position. Backing away is generally a sign that one does not have any aggressive intentions.
8. Did not attempt to fire a warning shot upon being closed on by ship's that have armed weapons. Even if the shot wasn't even close to them, merely a shot off in a random direction, and then lock all weapons (and arm them) on the incoming Minbari ships.

[ali-sama]

Originally Posted by BobDL

Yes, she is the right type of woman, but she isn't Nordic which is a requirement for a Valkyrie. The same goes for Mariska Hargitay, another good looking ass kicker. Perhaps a new thread needs to be started to list good looking, ass kicking women. Michelle Forbes and Katie Sackhoff can be on that list too.

Now, Katie Sackhoff fits the bill. (What is her eye color and is she a real blonde?)

BobDL

how are you defining nordic? do you mean caucasian? Anyhow. A lot of blondes are fake.
Look up Caucasian or the indo europiean etc on wiki. Also the amazon women of legend.
Amazon women are based on the women in west persia in the area of turkey....
Katrine bell is 1/2 persian btw.

Originally Posted by Barricade

Not only that but Jankowski did/didn't:

1. Put out a forward scout/pointman ahead of the taskforce.
2. Deploy a rearguard that could have ran at the first sign of trouble.
3. Didn't prepare a RoE, or be given a RoE that made it clear not to fire first unless fired upon.
4. Didn't have a RoE prepared, or be given a RoE that made it clear that what appears to be a provacative/hostile act that does NOT involve being fired upon does not allow the taskforce to fire back.
5. He ran STRAIGHT back to his main staging base, giving the Minbari instant access to EA's maps of their territory. He did not run a dogleg, zig-zag, or double-backed at all, or any kind of deceptive course changes.
6. When he did finally give the order to fire, it was widely dispersed and made no attempt to cripple or finish off the target with concentrated firepower (note that the Minbari's stealth was DOWN during that initial meeting). Utterly destroying the Sharlin/Shargotti might have made the Minbari a long more cautious - after all, since when did a lesser race actually destroy a Minbari warship in the last 1,000 years?
7. Did NOT attempt to run first, or even back away when the Minbari began to close in on his position. Backing away is generally a sign that one does not have any aggressive intentions.
8. Did not attempt to fire a warning shot upon being closed on by ship's that have armed weapons. Even if the shot wasn't even close to them, merely a shot off in a random direction, and then lock all weapons (and arm them) on the incoming Minbari ships.

The stealth was not down. they could only get a silhouette in the ir scanners.
Also, when did they follow him? He was on earth before they attacked.
Ali

[bookmonkey786]

The Federation might try to help the EA through the Andorian. The Andorians could say that they were guided by an older race and that race would like to help the EA. Just bit here and there. Sensors that can target Minbari ships being on top of the list.

That does raise the possibility of the Andorians being suspected being Shadow thralls later on if it ever gets out. Especialy if they go through Sheridan later on in the Shadow wars he might remember that and wonder where the Andorians get the tech from.

[ali-sama]

it looks like jms changed a bit of the story.
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/univer...-and-line.html

The Earth/Minbari war began as a misunderstanding. The first time a Terran ship encountered a Minbari starship, they studied each other closely. The Minbari ship made a move that they thought would be considered non- threatening. It wasn't. Even in the present of our story, no one is quite sure who fired first. The Minbari ship was greater in power, but taken by surprise, was destroyed, and the Earth ship limped back to base with tales of a terrible new enemy. Minbari ships, arriving to investigate, were interpreted to be the first wing of an invasion force by the base commander, and ships were launched in response before receiving formal authorization from Earth Central.

[tryglaw]

Originally Posted by bookmonkey786

The Federation might try to help the EA through the Andorian. The Andorians could say that they were guided by an older race and that race would like to help the EA. Just bit here and there. Sensors that can target Minbari ships being on top of the list.

That does raise the possibility of the Andorians being suspected being Shadow thralls later on if it ever gets out. Especialy if they go through Sheridan later on in the Shadow wars he might remember that and wonder where the Andorians get the tech from.

Well the Andorians could always pose as tech-runners, selling high-end stuff to the highest bidder, cash only and no questions asked.
Such a deal would certainly fit Earth's needs.

[tryglaw]

Originally Posted by BobDL

Yes, she is the right type of woman, but she isn't Nordic which is a requirement for a Valkyrie. The same goes for Mariska Hargitay, another good looking ass kicker. Perhaps a new thread needs to be started to list good looking, ass kicking women. Michelle Forbes and Katie Sackhoff can be on that list too.

Now, Katie Sackhoff fits the bill. (What is her eye color and is she a real blonde?)

BobDL

Edit: Denise Crosby fits in here somewhere.

Google / enter into your P2P client - "Joanna Liszowska" + "Playboy".
All-natural blonde, Slavic chicks rule.