Realistic: World War Z.

[Damar]

Originally Posted by Mr_Dowdy

I never really thought about it until now but that camera guy was really stupid.
After seeing the reporter get eaten by a giant bug he still kept rolling, as if it was all just some kind of show. Its like he had this strange idea in his head that nobody was really getting hurt.

Actually that appears to happen in real life, like during the tsunami in Asia, tourists kept filming despite being swept away by the water.

[cypress_z]

Originally Posted by Mr_Dowdy

Live propaganda,

Reasonable to criticize, although I'm sure it's been done in the real world before.

Chalk it up to overconfidence. I mean, a lot of the people in this thread seem to think they could personally handle the Yonkers horde with just a Geo Metro and a couple of tanks of gas. Surely it shouldn't seem all that incredible that they thought they'd wipe the floor with the horde to the extent they though they could get away with live broadcasts.

army tactics,

Eh, we've been arguing this all throughout the thread. Ignoring Yonkers (not that any of you ever will) it's not all that bad for a civilian. Better than 90% of all movies with military personnel in them these days.

How modern weapons work (shotguns, bolt action rifles, and slingshots against zombies? What a stupid Survival Guide...)

He himself pointed out that the slingshot wasn't a great choice, and I won't defend it. Shotguns and bolt action rifles will certainly kill a zombie though, and the guide was written for civilians, not military, and they'd be readily available. I don't see a real issue with either choice.

I mean, I was a medic in the army. I've seen what a person's head looks like after a point-blank shot with a shotgun. What's left resembles hamburger. No zombie would survive that.

As for bolt action rifles, I don't see a huge issue with that, either. He discourages semi-auto for being a potential waste of ammo, which is true for highly stressed civilians. Bolt action does force you to aim. Obviously semi-auto is better if you have the discipline to control your fire - but some people need restrictions placed on them. Particularly people who aren't really trained to fight anyone, which is who the guide was written for.

and a general underestimation of how smart people can be.

I think there's a lot of ingenuity in WWZ in certain portions of the book. The Distress section; the clearing America section, the Ukraine section, the South Africa section, etc. People were stupid and smart at various times in the book.

All of his premises rely on us believing that specific people who managed to gain full control of a 300,000,000 strong herd of sheeple will act really smart one second and then really stupid another.

Well, people in charge sometimes make mistakes in real life. I mean, have you seen the NSFW forum? When was the last thread about some insanely incompetent mayor that somehow manages to get re-elected time and time again? Or the last thread about anything happening in Washington DC?

No, the people weren't completely incompetent, but in really tough times, little mistakes become big mistakes and big mistakes become enormous ones. Worse, mistakes of all kinds are a lot more likely to happen.

[SGTschlock]

Originally Posted by Forgetful

*snip*

Quick point, most of the M16 variants currently in use by the US military at the moment don't even have automatic capacity. Most of them are just semi auto, 3-round burst. So the idea that the majority of the troops at Yonkers would be able to do automatic pray and spray isn't really plausible.

[Damar]

Yonkers kind of reminds me of the Battle of Bull Run, with the civillian spectators and the 'Easy Victory' mentality leading to panic and chaos.

[cypress_z]

Originally Posted by SGTschlock

Quick point, most of the M16 variants currently in use by the US military at the moment don't even have automatic capacity. Most of them are just semi auto, 3-round burst. So the idea that the majority of the troops at Yonkers would be able to do automatic pray and spray isn't really plausible.

Brooks wasn't really talking about Yonkers. It was a suggestion he made in the Survival Guide.

[Commander 598]

Originally Posted by SGTschlock

Quick point, most of the M16 variants currently in use by the US military at the moment don't even have automatic capacity. Most of them are just semi auto, 3-round burst. So the idea that the majority of the troops at Yonkers would be able to do automatic pray and spray isn't really plausible.

Yes it is, you just pull the trigger more than once.

[Ben Who Devours]

Why do you have to sweep at head height? With a machinegun you could try sweeping at the legs. Then they all have to crawl, and are more or less harmless unless you stick your foot in their mouth. And can't HMGs basically chop people in half anyway? You just have to mission-kill them, surely?

[Big Orange]

Originally Posted by cypress_z

It's not inexplicable. In fact, it's quite explicitly stated. The refugees went to the middle of the coldest areas they could find so they'd be safe from zombies.

By moving out into the middle of nowhere through sheer irrationality, the people doomed themselves and far more likely to die of hunger, cold, and infighting than from the actual zombies. If everybody more less stayed put in their towns and cities, the zombie outbreak would've been put down in under 18 months, rather than over a decade - they're dumber than a bag of rocks and can be killed with comparative ease.

And campfires make less mess than Indian and Chinese factories.

[SAMAS]

Originally Posted by Big Orange

By moving out into the middle of nowhere through sheer irrationality, the people doomed themselves and far more likely to die of hunger, cold, and infighting than from the actual zombies. If everybody more less stayed put in their towns and cities, the zombie outbreak would've been put down in under 18 months, rather than over a decade - they're dumber than a bag of rocks and can be killed with comparative ease.

And campfires make less mess than Indian and Chinese factories.

Exactly. World War Z in general, and Yonkers in particular happens primarily through a Perfect Storm of Author's Fiat and Plot Induced Stupidity.

[DOOM BRINGER]

Are people actually trying to defend this sack-o-shit book?

[Aratech]

Oh, now you've done it...

[DOOM BRINGER]

Originally Posted by Aratech

Oh, now you've done it...

Let them come! For they come to their DOOM!

[Big Orange]

Originally Posted by SAMAS

Exactly. World War Z in general, and Yonkers in particular happens primarily through a Perfect Storm of Author's Fiat and Plot Induced Stupidity.

Shaun of the Dead (seen) and Zombieland (like the look of) are tongue in cheek dark comedies, and even they make more sense than WWZ, with the slow shufflers in the former movie stopped within a few days and the undead from the latter movies being these fast zombies that can feasibly knock out America well before the military could properly mobilise.

Max Brook's zombies are slow moving, cannot open doors or climb over brick walls. Why did the US Military pull all the fuck back to the Rocky Mountains when well dug in and supplied officers in a typical police station could feasibly hold off and eventually beat hundreds of thousands of zombies. And why completely ignore the easily defensible military strongholds and Appalachian Mountains between New York and the Rockies?!

[Forgetful]

Well the Rockies were where the majority of the American people were located.

Throughout America they had scattered "Blue Zones", which bled off some of the zombies and allowed the Rockies an easier time. Its highly probable that some of these military strongholds and the Appalachian mountains were Blue Zones.

Originally Posted by SGTschlock

Quick point, most of the M16 variants currently in use by the US military at the moment don't even have automatic capacity. Most of them are just semi auto, 3-round burst. So the idea that the majority of the troops at Yonkers would be able to do automatic pray and spray isn't really plausible.

True...then again that was the civilian guide. Also troops are taught to aim center of mass, and three rounds to pop a head isn't exactly efficient.


Also go make your own thread to critize the book. It's about time this one died.

[Big Orange]

Most likely they were, but with the US Military at Yonkers enmasse, it seemed silly to call a strategic retreat and pull back for thousands of miles when there was one implausible hiccup with logistics.

[Forgetful]

Originally Posted by Big Orange

Most likely they were, but with the US Military at Yonkers enmasse, it seemed silly to call a strategic retreat and pull back for thousands of miles when there was one implausible hiccup with logistics.

It was all at once, it was forced by circumstance and it took several months for this so-called strategic retreat to happen.

[SGTschlock]

Originally Posted by Forgetful

Also troops are taught to aim center of mass

Generally because they fight enemies who don't make themselves easy targets and center mass is probably the only thing you're gonna hit.

Originally Posted by Forgetful

and three rounds to pop a head isn't exactly efficient.

It's ludicriously efficient compared to what typically needs to be used in killing human combatants.

Originally Posted by Forgetful

It was all at once, it was forced by circumstance and it took several months for this so-called strategic retreat to happen.

What did the army do in this time span of several months between Yonkers and the retreat to the other side of the continent from shuffler zombies?

[Skelron]

On the question of why live. One simple and obvious reason beyond they where convinced they would win...

Every hour that the people paniced meant another hour where more people fled as refugees taking potentially infected family members with them... oh and likely moved away from a TV set.

The 'Live Hollywood movie' effect was a faster way to achieve their mission objective and the faster they achieved it the better. Thats what was being fought here, a live hollywood movie to reassure the American people who for the most part... are raised to think thats how wars are fought. The author even makes sure to establish that view of the average american, to believe that War is roughly what you see in a Hollywood action movie at some level.

[Mr_Dowdy]

I think I finally found the answer to why the US propaganda machine, and Military went so stupid so fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jDeXACc-5A

BTW Cypress this is defiantly off topic but, an AR15/PS90 would work a hell of a lot better at a most ranges. He pointed out using bolt action rifles because aparently anything else would encourage people to waste ammo. At 0-50ft I personally would use a short barrel semi auto rifle with a quick detachable magazine preferably an AR15 variant because its the quickest to switch magazines. Also smaller calibers don't have as much recoil, so the 22LR, 5.7, and 5.56 all would work the best as rifle/carbine rounds even though the 22LR/5.7 aren't rifle rounds. If a Zombie apocalypse does happen the only way you would have nearly enough ammo, food, or water is if you stock up before hand, or use a 22LR conversion kit on an AR15, that's going to be the only caliber of bulk ammunition at any Walmart simply because they come in 550rnd boxes for $10.00-$12.00. Also looters would probably be going for the higher calibers anyway, the only issue with the 22LR would be a lack of penetration.

Besides if a horde of zombies starts shuffling toward anyone's hometown the only people who would be prepared to fight that are the guys with +5000rnds of ammunition sitting in their basements (Thanks Obama), and even then it would be better to just load everything in a truck with lots of gas and casually drive away. Its not like they are going to out run you.


Also how the hell can a horde of slow shuffling zombies manage to make it from coast to coast in less than six months, They cant drive, they cant run, and they sure as hell cant out-shuffle a crazy mob of panicky survivors. Outside of the coastal Mega-cities its just hills, trees, and deer. Any well enough informed group of soldiers/militia can just go zombie hunting with some buddies and bullhorns until the 22LR runs out then briskly walk back to a FOB and resupply. Bullhorns, brightly colored clothes, and maybe some small off-road vehicles hopefully would make it really easy to distinguish friend from foe while attracting the very zombies you plan to kill.

[cypress_z]

Originally Posted by Big Orange

By moving out into the middle of nowhere through sheer irrationality, the people doomed themselves and far more likely to die of hunger, cold, and infighting than from the actual zombies. If everybody more less stayed put in their towns and cities, the zombie outbreak would've been put down in under 18 months, rather than over a decade - they're dumber than a bag of rocks and can be killed with comparative ease.

And campfires make less mess than Indian and Chinese factories.

Yes, just like in many real life crisis when people panic and move towards the first perceived sanctuary from chaos and death, they are stupid.

I mean, if Hurricane Katrina hadn't happened and the author wrote about THAT, you people would argue how unrealistic it was.

Real people fuck up in monumental ways all the time. A lot. Including you.

If there were a disease that was 100% infectious, 100% lethal spreading everywhere and you didn't know any details about it other than that it made the dead rise again, you'd freak the hell out. I know you would, because *I* would, and I've received a hell of a lot more training to deal with crazy situations than you. Light, I've seen men blown to bits, and that doesn't freak me out. But this would, and it would definitely freak YOU out - particularly if you found you had a relative infected with the disease.

Would you run for safety to escape the zombies and, more importantly, the chaos of panicking people? Would you take your family member with you, hoping to save them explicitly not knowing there was no cure or possibility of one?

If the answer isn't yes to any of those questions, you are a goddamned liar.

Originally Posted by Big Orange

Shaun of the Dead (seen) and Zombieland (like the look of) are tongue in cheek dark comedies, and even they make more sense than WWZ, with the slow shufflers in the former movie stopped within a few days and the undead from the latter movies being these fast zombies that can feasibly knock out America well before the military could properly mobilize.

Max Brook's zombies are slow moving, cannot open doors or climb over brick walls. Why did the US Military pull all the fuck back to the Rocky Mountains when well dug in and supplied officers in a typical police station could feasibly hold off and eventually beat hundreds of thousands of zombies. And why completely ignore the easily defensible military strongholds and Appalachian Mountains between New York and the Rockies?!

Not the zombies; infected. And no military installations in the US are explicitly mentioned to have fallen to zombies, although some desciriptions of survivor bases talk about a base falling to starvation.

Originally Posted by Mr_Dowdy

I think I finally found the answer to why the US propaganda machine, and Military went so stupid so fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jDeXACc-5A

BTW Cypress this is defiantly off topic but, an AR15/PS90 would work a hell of a lot better at a most ranges. He pointed out using bolt action rifles because aparently anything else would encourage people to waste ammo. At 0-50ft I personally would use a short barrel semi auto rifle with a quick detachable magazine preferably an AR15 variant because its the quickest to switch magazines. Also smaller calibers don't have as much recoil, so the 22LR, 5.7, and 5.56 all would work the best as rifle/carbine rounds even though the 22LR/5.7 aren't rifle rounds. If a Zombie apocalypse does happen the only way you would have nearly enough ammo, food, or water is if you stock up before hand, or use a 22LR conversion kit on an AR15, that's going to be the only caliber of bulk ammunition at any Walmart simply because they come in 550rnd boxes for $10.00-$12.00. Also looters would probably be going for the higher calibers anyway, the only issue with the 22LR would be a lack of penetration.

Besides if a horde of zombies starts shuffling toward anyone's hometown the only people who would be prepared to fight that are the guys with +5000rnds of ammunition sitting in their basements (Thanks Obama), and even then it would be better to just load everything in a truck with lots of gas and casually drive away. Its not like they are going to out run you.


Also how the hell can a horde of slow shuffling zombies manage to make it from coast to coast in less than six months, They cant drive, they cant run, and they sure as hell cant out-shuffle a crazy mob of panicky survivors. Outside of the coastal Mega-cities its just hills, trees, and deer. Any well enough informed group of soldiers/militia can just go zombie hunting with some buddies and bullhorns until the 22LR runs out then briskly walk back to a FOB and resupply. Bullhorns, brightly colored clothes, and maybe some small off-road vehicles hopefully would make it really easy to distinguish friend from foe while attracting the very zombies you plan to kill.

A couple of notes here:

1: Do not write your asides in tiny, impossible to read script. Your points here are fairly good ones, so don't prevent people from reading them.

2: If you weapon can penetrate the skull and destroy the brain reliably, it's good enough. Your ideas are fine, but so are Max Brooks. He states his preferences, and some intelligent types of firearm for untrained civilians to ignore.

3: It was the infected, not the zombies, that spread the plague all across the nation. There was an incubation period after the bite, followed by death and reanimation. During this point, all fluid transfer seems to lead to zombification. As they were running for their lives at the time, and the refugees didn't know much about the disease, it makes sense they'd run far and fast. Just take the swine flu as an example of a disease spreading despite all possible measures to contain it.

It's just, instead of the tiny kill margin it has, change it to 100%, and infection rate to 100%. Oh, and once it kills you, it turns you into a zombie.

It's a lot scarier, yeah? And the scarier it is, the more likely people are to freak out in an insane way.

[Mr_Dowdy]

I wrote the "aside" bull-crap in tiny print because its off topic, that comment was pretty much about the problems I had with the Zombie survival guide (author favoring bolt action/thinking the M16 is fragile/saying the M16 has no stopping power when you don't need it against zombies/thinking the AK has a steel rod in the butt-stock), and zombie fiction in general.

Yeah I forgot about the incubation period, which was shown in every single movie.

Also I personally don't know if a 22LR could penetrate the skull at a distance beyond 100m (its a freaking BB with a shell casing), which is why I mentioned possible penetration issues. None of the other rounds I mentioned could have that problem within 300m. Accuracy with a 5.7 could also be an issue at ranges, smaller bullets tend to loose momentum faster.

I'll try not to answer every comment mindlessly from now on.

[Galahad]

Why would you need to even debate which rifle is better ? One AH-64 gunship can carry 1500 rounds of 30 mm ammo and iirc 80 FFAR rockets. Zombies take no cover, move in huge, densely packed mobs. They would be a pilots wet dream. A burst of chaingun or a rocket salvo would be felling zombies by dozens.

A single Apache gunship could easily wipe out several thousand zombies before landing, rearming and making another sortie in a hour.

A braedly vehicle, an abrams tank or a plain humvee with a mg on top would be killing thousand plus zombie each minimum. The autocannons would shred multiple zombie with one hit. Machine guns wont need more than a few rounds maximum. And big tank main guns can clear street mobs of hundreds of zombies at a time. Remember these zombies are just standing there taking punishment. Imagine detonating a 120 mm shell in a packed concert. Now multiply the horrific causulty numbers with as many shells your tank carries. Add a thousand or two more for the machine gun ammo. Plus add the few hundred that gets crushed under the tracks. Thats how its going to be for zombies

Finally zombie numbers are finite and actually quite small. How many people in north america again ? Suppose you got 200 million zombies. One gunship or armored vehicle could fell 1000 to 5000 each. A few hundred would stop the zombies entirely.

[Forgetful]

Originally Posted by SGTschlock

Generally because they fight enemies who don't make themselves easy targets and center mass is probably the only thing you're gonna hit.

It's ludicriously efficient compared to what typically needs to be used in killing human combatants.
What did the army do in this time span of several months between Yonkers and the retreat to the other side of the continent from shuffler zombies?

Okay.

Point one. True, all too true, and they had to try to aim for the head.

Point Two. True as well, but usually you should have a source of replenishment which for the troops. In this case America had a greatly reduced matieral to drawn on and to use.

Point Three. One would assume that they were busy trying to save people, establish strongholds, and trying to plan out a place to hold out.

Unfortunatly it is never outright stated what happened between Yonkers and during "wartime,". Apparently once they establish the Rockies as the place to go to, they had to re-pacify California and turn that into food and matieral production.

[Voran]

I like to think we're more genre savvy than those from the WWZ book. As long as we've got romero type shambling zombies, and not dawn of the dead remake sprinter zombies, ...and we get lucky and don't have resident evil "animals get mutated too, sorry" situations, WWZ would be survivable.

I think ultimately what would be most dangerous is 'suicide bombers', people who would take the opportunity to get infected and try to 'suicide bomb' enclaves of uninfected.

[Forgetful]

Originally Posted by Voran

I like to think we're more genre savvy than those from the WWZ book. As long as we've got romero type shambling zombies, and not dawn of the dead remake sprinter zombies, ...and we get lucky and don't have resident evil "animals get mutated too, sorry" situations, WWZ would be survivable.

I think ultimately what would be most dangerous is 'suicide bombers', people who would take the opportunity to get infected and try to 'suicide bomb' enclaves of uninfected.

Likely the individual member of SB.com would survive barring bad luck. The rest of the world?