Type 052C destroyer

Desert Fox · Nov 23rd 2009, 2:14pm

Any rumors / stories about how capable this class is?

It is a new Chinese destroyer which mounts a Phased Array radar system.

Clerik · Nov 23rd 2009, 7:08pm

The Chinese stopped after only building 2, and given the number of frigates they are pumping out, its not because of lack of resources. So either they are not happy with it, or they have a better/bigger design in mind. Or maybe they don't have a big enough tech base to make more of those massive radars.

Some people have said its radars are located too low to detect sea-skimming missiles at long ranges. The Chinese say they have recently tested the long range air-defense missiles quite successfully.

I think they might have sent them on anti-piracy missions near Somalia already.

In terms of capability, its gotta be comparable to some of the European destroyers, though nowhere near as versatile as a burke.

Apocal · Nov 23rd 2009, 9:54pm

Spiral development. They build a few of one class, see what needs to improve and move on with a derivative design incorporating the changes. Done right, it cuts down on development time because you're not haggling to get everything perfect on paper.

Shrike · Nov 23rd 2009, 10:00pm

I read somewhere that one big problem with the current chinese phased-array radar is the individual elements that make up the array are extremely expensive, on the order of $25,000 each, 25-50 times that of western makes.

I can't particularly confirm that or remember where I saw it though, it was a year or two ago.

primer · Nov 23rd 2009, 10:07pm

Are you people talking about AESA or phased array, because phased array in it self is nothing special, even the F-16A's radar was a phased array...

Desert Fox · Nov 24th 2009, 7:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by primer

Are you people talking about AESA or phased array, because phased array in it self is nothing special, even the F-16A's radar was a phased array...

I believe that ship based arrays have additional challenges because they re so much larger and the actual number of targets that they can track and target are so much greater.

Styxx · Nov 24th 2009, 8:56am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrike

I read somewhere that one big problem with the current chinese phased-array radar is the individual elements that make up the array are extremely expensive, on the order of $25,000 each, 25-50 times that of western makes.

But... I thought everything was cheaper in China...

Clerik · Nov 25th 2009, 7:47am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Styxx

But... I thought everything was cheaper in China...

Give them a year

Quote:

Originally Posted by primer

Are you people talking about AESA or phased array, because phased array in it self is nothing special, even the F-16A's radar was a phased array...

No it wasn't, it was a slotted array. Having phased array radars small enough to fit on fighters is a relatively recent development (PESA on Rafale/Su-30MKI and AESA on F-22).

However phased array radars have been on ships for at least a couple of decades(e.g. PESA on AEGIS), also on AWACS.

primer · Nov 25th 2009, 7:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clerik

No it wasn't, it was a slotted array. Phased array radars are either PESA (like arleigh burke) or AESA (like F-22).

The F-16 maintenance books beg to differ...

Raghar · Nov 25th 2009, 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by primer

The F-16 maintenance books beg to differ...

How many elements did it have?

Desert Fox · Nov 25th 2009, 10:36am

Thought I would add this......A link somebody sent me
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surf...2c_luyang2.asp

Clerik · Nov 25th 2009, 10:41am

Quote:

Originally Posted by primer

The F-16 maintenance books beg to differ...

Its possible different companies and countries have different phrases for different things. But in common radar parlance today, phased array means either a PESA or AESA radar, and F-16A's did NOT have that.

primer · Nov 25th 2009, 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clerik

Its possible different companies and countries have different phrases for different things. But in common radar parlance today, phased array means either a PESA or AESA radar, and F-16A's did NOT have that.

Every F-16 user used the same maintenance books in English given out by first General Dynamic and after that Lockheed Martin. I remember picking up the book for the radar and going "wtf, it's a phased array?" I'll take official General Dynamic publications over any other sources any day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raghar

How many elements did it have?

Dunno but if I know that would probably fall under OPSEC. Do not ask such things.

Apocal · Nov 25th 2009, 2:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clerik

Its possible different companies and countries have different phrases for different things. But in common radar parlance today, phased array means either a PESA or AESA radar, and F-16A's did NOT have that.

Dammit, can't find a good picture, but yeah, they sometimes use phased-array combined with mechanical scanning. From the late seventies or so. APG-66 did and so did the APG-73 in a Hornet. You open up the radar and it's a big array sitting on a gimbal to move it around.

There are certain favorable transmission characteristics you get out of it, without needing a whole lot of weight, plus it's better balanced than other antenna types, which is nice when you might increase it's weight nine times in the space of a few seconds.

And everyone uses tech pubs and maintenance manuals in English.

Desert Fox · Nov 25th 2009, 2:35pm

According to Brassey's, the APG-66 is a planar array.....The APG-77 is an actively scanned array

JC - Interrupted · Nov 25th 2009, 2:56pm

I've heard the F-16's AN/APG-66 radar described as a "mechanically scanned planar phased-array antenna with slotted waveguide", although it is more commonly referred to as a "slotted planar array" or a "slotted waveguide array".

primer · Nov 26th 2009, 12:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apocal

Dammit, can't find a good picture, but yeah,.

I have great pictures of it.....on my old computer cause this one crashed....

[edit]
Found this on f-16.net.

Clerik · Nov 26th 2009, 9:57am

The 052C destroyer has an electronically scanned array (ESA) radar. I believe the U.S. first put ESA's into service in 1990 on navy ships. China did it in 2005.

This page has some nice pictures of both ESA radars and older conventional radars like the F-16's:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html

We can ignore the word "phased array" since that seems to be confusing everyone. The original point was what kind of radar the 052C has. And it is indeed an ESA, which is technologically more modern than the the F-16A's radar.

primer · Nov 26th 2009, 10:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clerik

We can ignore the word "phased array" since that seems to be confusing everyone. The original point was what kind of radar the 052C has. And it is indeed an ESA, which is technologically more modern than the the F-16A's radar.

I would hope so, after 40ish years.

Then again, their latest home brewed fighter has the capabilities of a Block 25 F-16....

Clerik · Nov 26th 2009, 1:46pm

Well, the US did not have that kind of radar on deployed navy ships till 1990, so the gaap is 15 years, not 40.

As for fighters, some hold the J-10 to be equivilent to Block 52 F-16's, with the additional benefit of a delta-canard configuration. And their newest variant, the J-10B ( http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10b.asp ) appears to be even a step up from that, approaching Block 60.

I guess it depends on whether we trust their disclosed information or not.

Shrike · Nov 26th 2009, 2:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clerik

Well, the US did not have that kind of radar on deployed navy ships till 1990, so the gaap is 15 years, not 40.

Do we know if the chinese system is a passive or active electronically steered system? Because the first US electronically steered system dates back to the USS Long Beach. (not that it worked very well back then)

Clerik · Nov 26th 2009, 6:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrike

Do we know if the chinese system is a passive or active electronically steered system? Because the first US electronically steered system dates back
to the USS Long Beach. (not that it worked very well back then)

Yeah, if we're analyzing the gap, we should look at when the US put a radar of similar capability into service on a warship. I think the AN/SPY-1 on the AEGIS was the first one. I was wrong about 1990 though thats when the Burkes got it. It was first deployed on the Ticonderogas in 1983. So that's a 22 year gap.

As for what the 052C radar is, its not confirmed, but likely AESA. Pictures of it here: http://bbs.wforum.com/wmf/bbsviewer.php?trd_id=37115

Desert Fox · Nov 26th 2009, 6:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrike

Do we know if the chinese system is a passive or active electronically steered system? Because the first US electronically steered system dates back to the USS Long Beach. (not that it worked very well back then)

According to Friedman, the Long Beach array's real problem is there were only two arrays in existence. Basically, yjere were problems including training as far as the system.

Leo1 · Nov 26th 2009, 10:18pm

Quote:

Dunno but if I know that would probably fall under OPSEC. Do not ask such things.

I doubt it's OPSEC. You can simply count the elements on the antenna. That's what folks did the moment the Russia AESA for the PAK FA was unveiled back in August (as an aside, its got around ~1,500).

primer · Nov 27th 2009, 3:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo1

I doubt it's OPSEC. You can simply count the elements on the antenna. That's what folks did the moment the Russia AESA for the PAK FA was unveiled back in August (as an aside, its got around ~1,500).

You can count what you like, but as a former soldier I just can't tell you.

Nov 23rd 2009, 2:14pm	#1
Desert Fox Vulpes zerda Commodore Join Date: 30 Nov 2003 Location: Trapped in the buckle of the Bible Belt (Tidewater, VA, next to Regent University) Posts: 17,602	Type 052C destroyer Any rumors / stories about how capable this class is? It is a new Chinese destroyer which mounts a Phased Array radar system. __________________ "I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected him from your city. And don't wonder why he hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for his help because he might not be there." --Pat Robertson to Dover, PA

Nov 23rd 2009, 7:08pm	#2
Clerik Tetragrammaton Join Date: 3 Aug 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 3,700	The Chinese stopped after only building 2, and given the number of frigates they are pumping out, its not because of lack of resources. So either they are not happy with it, or they have a better/bigger design in mind. Or maybe they don't have a big enough tech base to make more of those massive radars. Some people have said its radars are located too low to detect sea-skimming missiles at long ranges. The Chinese say they have recently tested the long range air-defense missiles quite successfully. I think they might have sent them on anti-piracy missions near Somalia already. In terms of capability, its gotta be comparable to some of the European destroyers, though nowhere near as versatile as a burke. __________________ Do your kids a favour, and don't have them in the first place: VHEMT "Kim Basinger is not a sovereign country." - Es Arkajae

Nov 23rd 2009, 9:54pm	#3
Apocal Inexperienced IL Senator Join Date: 22 Aug 2004 Location: California Posts: 7,207	Spiral development. They build a few of one class, see what needs to improve and move on with a derivative design incorporating the changes. Done right, it cuts down on development time because you're not haggling to get everything perfect on paper. __________________ "Saying fuck is not as bad as pulling the trigger and sending hot steel through someone's chest." "Patriots make much of the dismal record of the French in matters military. Well, yes. It's hard to argue with failure. I note however that the French have Germany on their borders, a condition associated with military failure for everybody enjoying the same circumstances." -Fred Reed

Nov 23rd 2009, 10:07pm	#5
primer Poked by the A'dmin Staff Fleet Captain Join Date: 16 Mar 2004 Location: In ur engine, fixing ur plane, Posts: 9,365	Are you people talking about AESA or phased array, because phased array in it self is nothing special, even the F-16A's radar was a phased array... __________________ Een Tijger en een Leeuw in harmonie naast elkaar was op Twenthe helemaal niet raar. Maar door KAMP hoogst persoonlijk genaaid is de Leeuw de nek omgedraaid. Maar vandaag roepen wij in koor de TIJGERS vliegen op Volkel weer door. A n00bs view on StarWars: "A Trident Nuke would obliterate a Star Destroyer."- Field Marshal Commander of the SB Airforce./CAG of U.S.S Wankaprise

Nov 25th 2009, 10:36am	#11
Desert Fox Vulpes zerda Commodore Join Date: 30 Nov 2003 Location: Trapped in the buckle of the Bible Belt (Tidewater, VA, next to Regent University) Posts: 17,602	Thought I would add this......A link somebody sent me http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surf...2c_luyang2.asp __________________ "I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected him from your city. And don't wonder why he hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for his help because he might not be there." --Pat Robertson to Dover, PA

Nov 25th 2009, 2:35pm	#15
Desert Fox Vulpes zerda Commodore Join Date: 30 Nov 2003 Location: Trapped in the buckle of the Bible Belt (Tidewater, VA, next to Regent University) Posts: 17,602	According to Brassey's, the APG-66 is a planar array.....The APG-77 is an actively scanned array __________________ "I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: If there is a disaster in your area, don't turn to God, you just rejected him from your city. And don't wonder why he hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin. I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for his help because he might not be there." --Pat Robertson to Dover, PA

Nov 25th 2009, 2:56pm	#16
JC - Interrupted Registered Goddess Join Date: 20 Jun 2006 Location: Hive Fleet Caltech Posts: 8,383	I've heard the F-16's AN/APG-66 radar described as a "mechanically scanned planar phased-array antenna with slotted waveguide", although it is more commonly referred to as a "slotted planar array" or a "slotted waveguide array".

Nov 26th 2009, 9:57am	#18
Clerik Tetragrammaton Join Date: 3 Aug 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 3,700	The 052C destroyer has an electronically scanned array (ESA) radar. I believe the U.S. first put ESA's into service in 1990 on navy ships. China did it in 2005. This page has some nice pictures of both ESA radars and older conventional radars like the F-16's: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Zhuk-AE-Analysis.html We can ignore the word "phased array" since that seems to be confusing everyone. The original point was what kind of radar the 052C has. And it is indeed an ESA, which is technologically more modern than the the F-16A's radar. __________________ Do your kids a favour, and don't have them in the first place: VHEMT "Kim Basinger is not a sovereign country." - Es Arkajae

Nov 26th 2009, 1:46pm	#20
Clerik Tetragrammaton Join Date: 3 Aug 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 3,700	Well, the US did not have that kind of radar on deployed navy ships till 1990, so the gaap is 15 years, not 40. As for fighters, some hold the J-10 to be equivilent to Block 52 F-16's, with the additional benefit of a delta-canard configuration. And their newest variant, the J-10B ( http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10b.asp ) appears to be even a step up from that, approaching Block 60. I guess it depends on whether we trust their disclosed information or not. __________________ Do your kids a favour, and don't have them in the first place: VHEMT "Kim Basinger is not a sovereign country." - Es Arkajae

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