Did NATO break a deal with Russia

Corp · Nov 26th 2009, 5:29pm

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...663315,00.html

Found this on another site. Basically puts forward the idea that at the end of the Cold War NATO promised Russia that they would not expand NATO in return for the USSR going quietly. NATO expands anyway royally pissing Russia off, convincing them that NATO can never be trusted.

Though some people here might find it interesting/complete bulk.

AceRaptor · Nov 26th 2009, 5:34pm

Isnt Russia being considered to become another member of NATO?

Shrike · Nov 26th 2009, 5:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceRaptor

Isnt Russia being considered to become another member of NATO?

Um nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

DarthGamer · Nov 26th 2009, 5:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceRaptor

Isnt Russia being considered to become another member of NATO?

Reading a bit too much Clancy don't you think?

The Sun Emperor · Nov 26th 2009, 6:06pm

Who would they fight against? Islamic militants that are neither organizationally united nor even powerful enough to overthrow the governments of Muslim countries? A China that the West is growing more economically dependent upon with every financial quarter? A union of sinister Latin American lefty social democratic regimes? Neo-bushido Japan? What?

Ironanvil1 · Nov 26th 2009, 6:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sun Emperor

Who would they fight against? Islamic militants that are neither organizationally united nor even powerful enough to overthrow the governments of Muslim countries? A China that the West is growing more economically dependent upon with every financial quarter? A union of sinister Latin American lefty social democratic regimes? Neo-bushido Japan? What?

The resurgent Moon Nazis of course!

AdmiralTigercla · Nov 26th 2009, 6:36pm

I have the answer!

Pirates!

Lokar · Nov 26th 2009, 6:38pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_...2%80%93present)

Es Arkajae · Nov 26th 2009, 9:17pm

Oh no, you mean we may have hurt Russia's feelings?

Wow, I find myself totally not giving a shit.

marvelous stan · Nov 26th 2009, 9:25pm

'cause that couldn't possibly come back and bite us in the ass one day or anything.

Lord Vespasian · Nov 26th 2009, 9:55pm

There was never a formal promise not to expand NATO, but Gorbachev did get (or claim to get, I can't remember which) verbal assurances that NATO would not expand.

That being the case, the Russians still have good reason to be pissed off/paranoid about NATO. What purpose does expanding into the former Warsaw Pact and even Soviet republics have except to strengthen a formerly anti-Soviet, now anti-Russian alliance? With recent moves to possibly include Ukraine and Georgia, that perception's only gotten clearer.

Of course, that's only one aspect of the trainwreck that was the 1990's for Russia that's caused their mistrust of the West.

Alcibiades · Nov 27th 2009, 1:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Vespasian

There was never a formal promise not to expand NATO, but Gorbachev did get (or claim to get, I can't remember which) verbal assurances that NATO would not expand.

Claimed to get, and other people present corroborate the claim. Of course, a verbal assurance is worthless, especially when the leadership of the country changes, and this says a lot about Gorbachev's naivete/trusting nature/incredible stupidity.

NATO expansion largely occured because of Albright's single-minded obsession with getting the Czech Republic into NATO.

EDIT: Yeltsin did try to get NATO membership, at least rhetorically.

CnB · Nov 27th 2009, 2:04am

Why would you want to expand Nato membership, especially with countries that don't have anything to offer other than additional responsilibity?

dylanredefined · Nov 27th 2009, 2:22am

What possible reason could the former warsaw pact nations not want to remain
under Russian influence

.

Alcibiades · Nov 27th 2009, 2:34am

I think he means the existing NATO powers, not the former Warsaw Pact countries.

Reaper_93 · Nov 27th 2009, 2:35am

Get it in writing.

Harsh but true.

Es Arkajae · Nov 27th 2009, 7:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvelous stan

'cause that couldn't possibly come back and bite us in the ass one day or anything.

And do what?, what the fuck are they going to do that they wouldn't have done anyway?

Trying to placate Russia is a game for idiots. They respect strength and nothing else.

**IXJac** · Nov 27th 2009, 7:53am

Well, I think it's commonly accepted that there was an informal agreement not to expand NATO. . . but the fact is the Russians are such terrible neighbours there's a very great incentive for those countries close to her to seek a wider alliance for protection. At a time when Russia was too weak to do anything about it, NATO membership was the perfect sweetener for new friends and allies.

Lord Vespasian · Nov 27th 2009, 8:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Es Arkajae

And do what?, what the fuck are they going to do that they wouldn't have done anyway?

Nuke us?

Alcibiades · Nov 27th 2009, 9:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Vespasian

Nuke us?

Not cooperate in Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran. Ally with China.

In general, basing foreign policy on crude cultural stereotypes is really dumb. Antagonizing powerful nuclear states at the same time as they are trying to make overtures to you is also not a good idea.

People made the exact same arguments about Germans in the 50s, by the way (in both the NATO and Soviet camps). Hell "keeping the Germans down" was one of the reasons NATO was established in the first place.

Lokar · Nov 27th 2009, 12:55pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcibiades

Not cooperate in Afghanistan or Iraq or Iran. Ally with China.

Russia had little incentive to work with NATO on Afghanistan or the US in Iraq... Once the Russians got their shit together the Checans became less and less of an issue. Iran, there is some incentive radioactive fallout and all that jazz... However Iran mucking around in the Gulf only means that Russia gets to raise the price of their own oil and natural gas shippments. Russians are not stupid and they have and will act in what is their own interests.

LoofahBoy · Nov 27th 2009, 1:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Sun Emperor

Who would they fight against? Islamic militants that are neither organizationally united nor even powerful enough to overthrow the governments of Muslim countries? A China that the West is growing more economically dependent upon with every financial quarter? A union of sinister Latin American lefty social democratic regimes? Neo-bushido Japan? What?

End of the cold war my ass, Russia is still a threat to the west, that's why. They still have the nukes and their strong-arm tendencies they did when they were the USSR. The cold war never ended in my opinion, it just became temporarily supercooled, if you will.

Russia IMO has an almost passive-aggressive hatred of the west. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to get an angry Russian population riled into warmongering mode and have the nukes fly.

The Sun Emperor · Nov 27th 2009, 1:27pm

I, too, enjoyed Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.

TheMarine · Nov 27th 2009, 1:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcibiades

Ally with China.

Lol yea... right. China wants siberia and Russia knows this. It's something thats been going on for years as they had a sort of falling out in the 60's/70's. They deal with each other but ally? No. The threat of the ebil capitalists and Russia's nuclear weapons are probably the only thing keeping them both from trying something.

Plus I think they might be trying to see who can out drain europe and the west of money faster.

hyperion51 · Nov 27th 2009, 2:24pm

One thing about expanding the organization. Having Ukraine as a member means NATO is now literally right across the border from Russia, instead of back in the day when it was the Russians that we feared that could attack West Germany.

That and having Ukraine as a western ally instead of Russia means their presence in the Black Sea falls apart.

Nov 26th 2009, 5:29pm	#1
Corp General of Seventh Gate Commodore Join Date: 27 May 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 13,550	Did NATO break a deal with Russia http://www.spiegel.de/international/...663315,00.html Found this on another site. Basically puts forward the idea that at the end of the Cold War NATO promised Russia that they would not expand NATO in return for the USSR going quietly. NATO expands anyway royally pissing Russia off, convincing them that NATO can never be trusted. Though some people here might find it interesting/complete bulk. __________________ "War is an ugly thing, but it is not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill

Nov 26th 2009, 5:34pm	#2
AceRaptor Registered Join Date: 25 Mar 2005 Location: San Jose Posts: 5,343	Isnt Russia being considered to become another member of NATO? __________________ "Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurences it cannot understand." "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it" -Agent K in Men In Black "Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion," -Steven Weinberg

Nov 26th 2009, 6:36pm	#7
AdmiralTigercla GCFA Fleet Command Otaku Join Date: 23 Nov 2006 Location: Subspace Posts: 12,272	I have the answer! Pirates! __________________ Is eight hours of sleep too much to ask for? I dunno... Read to find out. Ernest Hart Keep Track of me at: The Antarctic Shrine "It's bad form to make girls cry..." Magical Girl: Coming Soon.

Nov 26th 2009, 6:38pm	#8
Lokar Twin tails squares moe Lord of Ether Join Date: 12 Oct 2001 Location: The Thersonian Reich Posts: 25,232	The correct answer is... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_...2%80%93present) __________________ "If this lady loses, the health care reform bill that the beloved late senator considered his legacy, will die. And the reason it will die... is because if Coakley loses, Democrats will only have an 18 vote majority in the Senate, which is more than George W. Bush ever had in the Senate when did whatever the fuck he wanted to." -Jon Stewert "A strong wave of fists rained down on her for more than 16 minutes." Number of gold coins: 200

Nov 26th 2009, 9:17pm	#9
Es Arkajae God Emperor of Earth Join Date: 30 Aug 2001 Location: Imperium Australis Posts: 37,073	Oh no, you mean we may have hurt Russia's feelings? Wow, I find myself totally not giving a shit. __________________ "Man has killed man from the beginning of time, and each new frontier has brought new ways and new places to die. Why should the future be different?"- Col. Corazon Santiago."No Conqueror has ever suffered one pang of remorse over a surplus of victory"- Xenophon.

Nov 26th 2009, 9:25pm	#10
marvelous stan Registered Join Date: 31 Oct 2009 Posts: 1,195	'cause that couldn't possibly come back and bite us in the ass one day or anything.

Nov 26th 2009, 9:55pm	#11
Lord Vespasian Registered Join Date: 27 Oct 2008 Posts: 1,244	There was never a formal promise not to expand NATO, but Gorbachev did get (or claim to get, I can't remember which) verbal assurances that NATO would not expand. That being the case, the Russians still have good reason to be pissed off/paranoid about NATO. What purpose does expanding into the former Warsaw Pact and even Soviet republics have except to strengthen a formerly anti-Soviet, now anti-Russian alliance? With recent moves to possibly include Ukraine and Georgia, that perception's only gotten clearer. Of course, that's only one aspect of the trainwreck that was the 1990's for Russia that's caused their mistrust of the West.

Nov 27th 2009, 2:04am	#13
CnB Registered Join Date: 16 Oct 2009 Posts: 1,342	Why would you want to expand Nato membership, especially with countries that don't have anything to offer other than additional responsilibity?

Nov 27th 2009, 2:22am	#14
dylanredefined Registered Join Date: 4 Jul 2009 Location: portsmouth uk Posts: 2,649	What possible reason could the former warsaw pact nations not want to remain under Russian influence.

Nov 27th 2009, 2:34am	#15
Alcibiades Registered Join Date: 17 Sep 2009 Location: Moscow, the Land of the People with the Big Furry Hats Posts: 1,664	I think he means the existing NATO powers, not the former Warsaw Pact countries.

Nov 27th 2009, 2:35am	#16
Reaper_93 Registered Engineer Join Date: 19 Sep 2006 Posts: 9,914	Get it in writing. Harsh but true. __________________ ~~/{[[===============================,~~ \|\|/Proud Owner of Modetar \|\|\|Play League of Legends (for FREE) Today! \\\|The only one to ever eviscerate a moderator and survive to put it in his sig `\\Interested in Pro Gaming? Click me!

Nov 27th 2009, 7:53am	#18
IXJac Moderator Moderati Join Date: 26 Dec 1999 Posts: 19,985	Well, I think it's commonly accepted that there was an informal agreement not to expand NATO. . . but the fact is the Russians are such terrible neighbours there's a very great incentive for those countries close to her to seek a wider alliance for protection. At a time when Russia was too weak to do anything about it, NATO membership was the perfect sweetener for new friends and allies. __________________ An Outside Context Problem is the sort of thing most civilizations encounter just once, and which they tend to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encounters a full stop. -"Excession," definition of an OCP "Look at your comment, now back to mine. Now back at your comment now back to mine. Sadly it isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting legitimate comments it could look like mine." -Bombadecasa, YouTube video comment

Nov 27th 2009, 2:24pm	#25
hyperion51 Registered Join Date: 10 Oct 2004 Posts: 2,525	One thing about expanding the organization. Having Ukraine as a member means NATO is now literally right across the border from Russia, instead of back in the day when it was the Russians that we feared that could attack West Germany. That and having Ukraine as a western ally instead of Russia means their presence in the Black Sea falls apart.

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