Flood vs 666 Layers (DnD)

[Dessolution]

By the act of ROB, thousands of Flood, including the Grave mind gets transported within some backwater layer of the Abyss. The started consuming lesser demons. Would the threat of the Flood consume all the layers of the Abyss and more? Or would they fail and fail miserably?

The Gravemind is obviously intelligent. Any built tech won't work however magic would certainly work if they consume someone who can.

[Unhappy Anchovy]

Do demons even have a nervous system for Flood to take over?

Since the threat posed by the Flood is entirely relative to the bodies they take over, assuming demons do have a nervous system and can be taken, I'm guessing the Flood take over a few layers before the next demon lord decides to blockade the portals leading to the next layer.

[Dessolution]

It should. Otherwise they wouldn't, couldn't exist. Even if said creature were created purely by supernatural means.

[Drachyench]

To my knowledge, they fail due to some natural barriers in the deeper layers. I remember a few years back "[x] invades DnD Hell" threads were pretty popular, and the main limiters were things such as endless plains of magma on some levels, near absolute zero frozen wastes on the next, and so on. Assuming they can hijack the magical Demons / Devils through some mean (which I'd say is a big assumption, as wouldn't a few of said beings be immune to practically anything mundane that could be thrown at them?), their chances increase, but then the still have to deal with the massive amount of enemies.

[Q99]

Originally Posted by Dessolution

It should. Otherwise they wouldn't, couldn't exist. Even if said creature were created purely by supernatural means.

They could have an alternate equivalent.

The 'nervous system' of an air element is still made of air, after all.


Still, I think they do have one...

[Unhappy Anchovy]

Originally Posted by Dessolution

It should. Otherwise they wouldn't, couldn't exist. Even if said creature were created purely by supernatural means.

It is possible that some demons do and others don't.

For example, an immolith is an undead sentient pillar of fire. It looks like this. I do not think it could be controlled by a Flood. Since all Tanar'ri are part of the same family of demons, so to speak, one might ask what it is that they all have in common.

Originally Posted by Drachyench

To my knowledge, they fail due to some natural barriers in the deeper layers. I remember a few years back "[x] invades DnD Hell" threads were pretty popular, and the main limiters were things such as endless plains of magma on some levels, near absolute zero frozen wastes on the next, and so on.

If that debate opens up again, here's the closest reference I can find:

Originally Posted by Manual of the Planes, 3.0, p. 99

Each layer of the Abyss has its own unique, horrific, environment. No theme unifies the multifarious layers other than their harsh, inhospitable nature. Lakes of caustic acid, clouds of noxious fumes, caverns of razor-sharp spikes, and landscapes of magma are all possibilities.

And the same book has a table for 'Random Abyssal Layers' on page 101, including the options 'Ocean of water', 'Sea of acid', 'Sea of insects', and 'Sea of magma'.

There are also layers of the Abyss filled entirely with undead. Can the Flood take control of undead? They seem to be able to animate dead bodies in the games, but how canon is that?

[Sean21]

Originally Posted by Unhappy Anchovy

There are also layers of the Abyss filled entirely with undead. Can the Flood take control of undead? They seem to be able to animate dead bodies in the games, but how canon is that?

The highest.

[Unhappy Anchovy]

I was wondering if it was a game mechanic.

[Aratech]

Originally Posted by Q99

They could have an alternate equivalent.

The 'nervous system' of an air element is still made of air, after all.


Still, I think they do have one...

IIRC, several passages revolving around Errtu and his minions involve the use of the words 'nerve' 'brain' and the like. This heavily suggests that they do, in fact, possess a central nervous system.

[Dessolution]

The Flood has the incredible affinity to adapt to almost any environment as they consume. Especially if they kept consuming demons and gain their knowledge. Not only can they use magic but the bodies they consumed would keep them alive within the environment. There is a reason these guys are such a threat.

Aratech, this thread was inspired by your fic. One where Helm warns the Gods of such a threat.

[Brellin]

I remember an OP I posted awhile back involving the Aeon from SupCom:FA with "get to any layer eventually" abilities having been concluded that they could not in fact take over or "defeat" the Abyss and would simply end up taking "new ground" forever due to the nature of the Abyss.

All I have to say is that if the Aeon couldn't do it, there is no way in hell that the Flood can.

[Q99]

If you take over enough of the Abyss, eventually the nature of the plane will change. Layers have moved planes before.

Truly conquering 'all' of the Abyss is pretty much out, the planes act sort of like random terrain generators in a game. While there's set major areas, minor areas can constantly be found and likewise will go away. Altering the nature of the plane is doable, but hard.

[Mith]

Originally Posted by Dessolution

By the act of ROB, thousands of Flood, including the Grave mind gets transported within some backwater layer of the Abyss. The started consuming lesser demons. Would the threat of the Flood consume all the layers of the Abyss and more? Or would they fail and fail miserably?

Yeah...no.

The demons in 4e are mostly elemental creatures and while a good deal of them could probably be converted by the flood--they are still of the Abyss. Their death would mean they'd simply be reabsorbed back into the Abyss. And god help the poor thing that attaches itself to it.

Furthermore, Demogorgon and Orcus have killed gods. Intermediate deities (of whome they are a match for) are capable of KT level firepower without even causing harm to themselves. And furthermore:

During brief lulls in their endless wars, Demogorgon
and Orcus both kept wary eyes turned upon
Turaglas, watching as its power grew. And they prepared
for its return.

Unimaginable as it might seem, these two greatest
of demon princes briefly put their enmity aside and
joined forces against the Ebon Maw. Even as Turaglas
returned to Sholo-Tovoth, it was beset by a thousand
times a thousand demons. Within the middle world,
cultists of Orcus and monsters of Demogorgon massacred
the Devourer’s followers until they were no more
than a few ragged cabals hiding in terror.

Then, appearing through portals that tore through
Abyssal layers, Orcus and Demogorgon themselves
set upon the Ebon Maw.

Against them both, even the mighty Devourer
could not stand. Drawing upon the last lingering
magic of its mortal cultists and its mastery over its
own demesne, Turaglas attempted to banish the
attacking demons from its realm or to flee once more
through mystic portals, but even for this, its foes were
ready. They corrupted its magic, sealing the entirety
of the layer behind dimensional walls, transforming
it into a planar prison from which even the Hunger
Eternal could not escape.

The name of Turaglas was soon lost to the world,
even if the scars of its rampage remained. The surviving
Feeders passed down their lore in secret, and the
Burning Tongue dimmed to a faint glow as the power
of the Devourer faded from the land.

The Gravemind is obviously intelligent. Any built tech won't work however magic would certainly work if they consume someone who can.

It shoud be noted that most layers are about the size of continents and many have their own skies, some with their own small celestial bodies such as moons.

Even if by some miracle the Gravemind manages to push deep into the abyss, it would not win. The heart of the Abyss; the Shard of Evil, drove a god mad. It would fucking steamroll the Gravemind.

[Mith]

Originally Posted by Q99

If you take over enough of the Abyss, eventually the nature of the plane will change. Layers have moved planes before.

Most changes have been minor and are relatively unsuccessful since while a powerful being can manipulate the abyss, it can manipulate you back. Graz'zt was a devil until the Abyss corrupted him. Even if the Gravemind managed to alter the nature of the abyss to some degree, it likely wouldn't be able to spread beyond that layer at best. At worst it would last a week before another demon prince or two picks them off.

[Aratech]

The main issue here, to head off fanboyism from both sides, is that first, Gravemind is being forced to work with a ludicrously small attack force here. The numbers given in the OP, for the Flood, is the equivalent of the Allies trying to take a peak production WW2 era Berlin with a rifle squad and a single fifty caliber machinegun. Flood armies at their peak were such that billions of combat forms could be spared for individual planets (and there's nothing to suggest the planets were terribly important).

Gravemind, and the Flood, are psychic hivemind beings. The more of them there are, the more powerful they grow mentally. The OP is also depriving Gravemind of his/its greatest strength: intelligence and planning. It has no information. No data on the enemy, on force projections, etc, etc. More importantly, it has had no time to familiarize itself with magic or anything of that nature.

One on One, a Flood combat form is more than a match for nearly any physical creature that could be thrown at it here (even the weakest of combat forms are stronger than Spartans or Elites, and are damnably hard to kill). But they're outnumbered, blind, have no industrial base to work with and their intelligence on the sudden change of positions is nonexistent at best.

In short, the deck stacking against them is so horrifically bad that I have to wonder if Christopher Paloni was not behind it.

[Q99]

Originally Posted by Mith

Most changes have been minor and are relatively unsuccessful since while a powerful being can manipulate the abyss, it can manipulate you back. Graz'zt was a devil until the Abyss corrupted him. Even if the Gravemind managed to alter the nature of the abyss to some degree, it likely wouldn't be able to spread beyond that layer at best. At worst it would last a week before another demon prince or two picks them off.

Note that in some cases chunks of planes or entire layers have moved to different planes. The Harmonium shifted a LG plane layer to LN (though that is likely temporarily), and gate towns fall into their respective planes from the Outlands all the time.

So, hypothetically, one could attack the Abyss by taking it layer by layer and affecting each layer enough to shift it out of the Abyss entirely before moving on to the next one.

Trying to alter it all in one go is too much, like with Graz'zt or... I think there was a pantheon of gods that tried then the Abyss killed 'em and made a new race of demons. But nibbling away at it's edges may work.

Or for a lesser change, they might just displace the Tanar'ri as the main demons, just as the Tanar'ri took over after the Eladrin killed their predecessors. That's one proven way to conquer the Abyss.

[Mith]

Originally Posted by Aratech

The main issue here, to head off fanboyism from both sides

*Cough*

I can back up anything I said, including the KT level firepower.

, is that first, Gravemind is being forced to work with a ludicrously small attack force here.

While I agree, I think the Oper had thought that it would be easy to obtain demons before the a demon lord or prince can respond to the threat.

The numbers given in the OP, for the Flood, is the equivalent of the Allies trying to take a peak production WW2 era Berlin with a rifle squad and a single fifty caliber machinegun.

Well yes, of course. But you would also need to add that beach is riddled with land mines as well.

Flood armies at their peak were such that billions of combat forms could be spared for individual planets (and there's nothing to suggest the planets were terribly important).

And while that would present a rather potent force, it would not be enough to take on the abyss. Demon princes could kill them by the hundreds without breaking a sweat and they could easily nuke them.

Gravemind, and the Flood, are psychic hivemind beings. The more of them there are, the more powerful they grow mentally. The OP is also depriving Gravemind of his/its greatest strength: intelligence and planning. It has no information. No data on the enemy, on force projections, etc, etc. More importantly, it has had no time to familiarize itself with magic or anything of that nature.

That's unfair for the Gravemind. It isn't stupid. It would get those things and it would probably use the stronger, more aggressive forms to ensure that such information is gained. What it is quickly going to realize however, is that it's in a position to get fucked sideways and would probably try to leave.

One on One, a Flood combat form is more than a match for nearly any physical creature that could be thrown at it here (even the weakest of combat forms are stronger than Spartans or Elites, and are damnably hard to kill). But they're outnumbered, blind, have no industrial base to work with and their intelligence on the sudden change of positions is nonexistent at best.

I know little of Flood forms, but yes, they're far, far too outnumbered to be able to put it to good use.

In short, the deck stacking against them is so horrifically bad that I have to wonder if Christopher Paloni was not behind it.

That wasn't intentional I think. I personally thought the Oper was trying to make it fair for the demons without realizing how dangerous the abyss really is.

Really though, the most crippling part about the debate is that they can never win. Slain demons will be re-absorbed or their taken bodies have a chance of working against the hive mind and corrupting the Hive forms.

The second and the absolute most damning is that the closer to the heart of the abyss you get to, the more it corrupts you. The Chained God was driven mad by the Seed of Evil, Codricuhn the Blood Storm, who was once a Primordial and fell into the heart of the Abyss. His body was twisted and corrupted, becoming a sake of flesh and blood. His will was torn from him and now he remains a slave of his own body, destined to climb up from the heart of the abyss to bring the end of the world.

Originally Posted by Q99

Note that in some cases chunks of planes or entire layers have moved to different planes. The Harmonium shifted a LG plane layer to LN (though that is likely temporarily), and gate towns fall into their respective planes from the Outlands all the time.

Which is a small bit and it's a miracle they haven't overran the layer yet.

So, hypothetically, one could attack the Abyss by taking it layer by layer and affecting each layer enough to shift it out of the Abyss entirely before moving on to the next one.

Trying to alter it all in one go is too much, like with Graz'zt or... I think there was a pantheon of gods that tried then the Abyss killed 'em and made a new race of demons. But nibbling away at it's edges may work.

Or for a lesser change, they might just displace the Tanar'ri as the main demons, just as the Tanar'ri took over after the Eladrin killed their predecessors. That's one proven way to conquer the Abyss.

The problem here are two folds; the first is that the this is simply nibbling at the heels. It's never going to work in the long run. The abyss will just grow to restore the lost parts.

The second is that even if the Tanar'ri are killed, the OP requires the 666 layers of the abyss, which is its own entity. Killing off its servants only to replace them doesn't exactly beat it.

[Aratech]

Originally Posted by Mith

*Cough*

I can back up anything I said, including the KT level firepower.

I'm not denying them KT level firepower. There were other things I had in mind, some of them from the Halo side too.

While I agree, I think the Oper had thought that it would be easy to obtain demons before the a demon lord or prince can respond to the threat.

It depends. I'm not as familiar with 4e Abyss as 3.5.

Well yes, of course. But you would also need to add that beach is riddled with land mines as well.

Berlin has no beach.

And while that would present a rather potent force, it would not be enough to take on the abyss. Demon princes could kill them by the hundreds without breaking a sweat and they could easily nuke them.

By those numbers, they'd be a rather potent force mentally too. Think of Gravemind as you would a post ToT deity. The more of his 'children' there are, the more powerful he is.

That's unfair for the Gravemind. It isn't stupid. It would get those things and it would probably use the stronger, more aggressive forms to ensure that such information is gained. What it is quickly going to realize however, is that it's in a position to get fucked sideways and would probably try to leave.

Correct. Gravemind is not stupid. It did not manage to win a war agaisnt a culture-esque civilization by being an idiot.

As for information absorption, like the Borg or the Illithid, whatever a Flood infection form takes control of, it gains the memories of, and Gravemind very quickly learns how to think outside the box, as seen in Halo 2 with the In Amber Clad (Gravemind has zero understanding of the ship, has never seen anything like it, and yet within a couple of hours of poking an prodding it, with a few consumed crewmembers (none of who would likely ahve any idea how the damn theories for slip-space work, only how to keep stuff running) he goes and pulls precision slip-space jumps that are supposed to be flat out impossible for a human FTL generator to do).

I know little of Flood forms, but yes, they're far, far too outnumbered to be able to put it to good use.

They're strong enough to send Spartans and Elites for a loop, can make, IIRC, 20 meter vertical jumps, are extremely durable, and there is at least one instance of a human based combat form knocking Sergent Johnson clear across a 30 meter room at, IIRC from the calcs, in excess of 25 meters per second. The energy involved was about 42 kilojoules. Or about 2.5 times the energy of a fifty caliber M-2.

Also, their very existence is a giant 'fuck you' to several laws of the physical universe.

[Mith]

Originally Posted by Aratech

I'm not denying them KT level firepower. There were other things I had in mind, some of them from the Halo side too.

Anything specific D&D wise?

It depends. I'm not as familiar with 4e Abyss as 3.5.

Some of the concept has changed. The Abyss has been changed from a realm of spiritual evil (early 3e) to a realm that wishes to devour everything (late 3e and full out 4e). Numerous primordials and two gods (maybe on one though) were corrupted and driven mad from its power.

Berlin has no beach.

*Smacks head*

Sorry, brain fucked up there. Berlin is the walled city that the Soviets decided to be douches about, correct?

In that case, they already had the land mines.

By those numbers, they'd be a rather potent force mentally too. Think of Gravemind as you would a post ToT deity. The more of his 'children' there are, the more powerful he is.

True, but he isn't exactly a god. Becoming a god in 4e requires a spark of divine power obtained through some means. Most likely the Gravemind is going to become a demon lord and take his own layer, but that's about it.

Correct. Gravemind is not stupid. It did not manage to win a war agaisnt a culture-esque civilization by being an idiot.

As for information absorption, like the Borg or the Illithid, whatever a Flood infection form takes control of, it gains the memories of, and Gravemind very quickly learns how to think outside the box, as seen in Halo 2 with the In Amber Clad (Gravemind has zero understanding of the ship, has never seen anything like it, and yet within a couple of hours of poking an prodding it, with a few consumed crewmembers (none of who would likely ahve any idea how the damn theories for slip-space work, only how to keep stuff running) he goes and pulls precision slip-space jumps that are supposed to be flat out impossible for a human FTL generator to do).

Unfortunately, most demons aren't going to be that helpful. The grunts are downright worthless and most of the higher end demons are not going to let themselves fall into that sort of trap. Granted if they do, it can delay a demon lord or prince a great deal, but that's assuming they can't just turn them back (chances are they can, especially within their own realm). And even then, most of it's just strategy. Tactics are somewhat are looser guidlines than the Pirate Code.

They're strong enough to send Spartans and Elites for a loop, can make, IIRC, 20 meter vertical jumps, are extremely durable, and there is at least one instance of a human based combat form knocking Sergent Johnson clear across a 30 meter room at, IIRC from the calcs, in excess of 25 meters per second. The energy involved was about 42 kilojoules. Or about 2.5 times the energy of a fifty caliber M-2.

Also, their very existence is a giant 'fuck you' to several laws of the physical universe.

So...upper level demons.

Still though, I can't see the Gravemind taking out the abyss. Fortunately, most demon lords aren't going to notice or care so long as they aren't being bothered. If the gravemind is able to get a relatively intelligent demon that knows something about politics, it's going to realize it needs to stay in its own little layer and be a good boy if it doesn't want to draw the attention of god-like demon princes.

If anything, it's probably going to want to become a demon itself, since that gives it the only chance of thriving in its area, a great deal of power, and a shot for the gold. I would suggest that the Gravemind would focus on more powerful/intelligent forms that can add a great deal of power and knowledge with little amount of servants since a plague of demon-floods are going to call Orcus and Demogorgon to the scene. And as I've already posted, they're more than happy to work together to take out another enemy. The Gravemind would be better off using normal demons or variants thereof with no form of apparent advantage if it wants to stay low.

In the end though, I really can't see it getting that far, but it can survive, that much is easy enough. But I suspect that after its first entrance into the mortal world (ie, via servants), the gods are probably going to cut it off or perhaps the other demon princes might (it's been done before through considerable effort).

[Brellin]

As stated earlier, Abyss > Aeon (mostly), and the Aeon >>>>>>>>The Flood.

[Aratech]

Originally Posted by Mith

Anything specific D&D wise?

Mostly concerns that someone might try to sneak in an ability that occured thanks to a hijacked Forerunner ship.

Some of the concept has changed. The Abyss has been changed from a realm of spiritual evil (early 3e) to a realm that wishes to devour everything (late 3e and full out 4e). Numerous primordials and two gods (maybe on one though) were corrupted and driven mad from its power.

...*smacks forehead*

*Smacks head*

Sorry, brain fucked up there. Berlin is the walled city that the Soviets decided to be douches about, correct?

In that case, they already had the land mines.

No, that would be Stalingrad. Berlin is the German Capital.

True, but he isn't exactly a god. Becoming a god in 4e requires a spark of divine power obtained through some means. Most likely the Gravemind is going to become a demon lord and take his own layer, but that's about it.

Close enough. With enough 'faith' there's nothing to suggest its not possible, especially if he learns magic.

Unfortunately, most demons aren't going to be that helpful. The grunts are downright worthless and most of the higher end demons are not going to let themselves fall into that sort of trap. Granted if they do, it can delay a demon lord or prince a great deal, but that's assuming they can't just turn them back (chances are they can, especially within their own realm). And even then, most of it's just strategy. Tactics are somewhat are looser guidlines than the Pirate Code.

It depends again, really. A Flood infection form is able to land on, cut into, and convert a large creature like a Brute into one of its own in about three seconds. They don't need a lot of time, and infection forms have no problems swarming by the hundreds to take down and convert a single individual.

So...upper level demons.

Little bit higher, actually. Errtu never showed the physical capabilities of one of these things. And again, under 'proper' circumstances, there'd be billions of these things. Combat forms are Flood cannon fodder. The 'evolved' forms are considerably more powerful, and again, we don't know what other things they might have had during the original war (there is much to suggest that the Gravemind faced in the games is very weak compared to his pre-Halo firing capabilities. As are his minions).

Still though, I can't see the Gravemind taking out the abyss. Fortunately, most demon lords aren't going to notice or care so long as they aren't being bothered. If the gravemind is able to get a relatively intelligent demon that knows something about politics, it's going to realize it needs to stay in its own little layer and be a good boy if it doesn't want to draw the attention of god-like demon princes.

If anything, it's probably going to want to become a demon itself, since that gives it the only chance of thriving in its area, a great deal of power, and a shot for the gold. I would suggest that the Gravemind would focus on more powerful/intelligent forms that can add a great deal of power and knowledge with little amount of servants since a plague of demon-floods are going to call Orcus and Demogorgon to the scene. And as I've already posted, they're more than happy to work together to take out another enemy. The Gravemind would be better off using normal demons or variants thereof with no form of apparent advantage if it wants to stay low.

In the end though, I really can't see it getting that far, but it can survive, that much is easy enough. But I suspect that after its first entrance into the mortal world (ie, via servants), the gods are probably going to cut it off or perhaps the other demon princes might (it's been done before through considerable effort).

Actually, his firs move is likely to shift to something with more viable resources, like the Prime. Outside of direct divine intervention (something the Gods are, again, extremely reluctant to do, even when certain annihilation is staring them and their followers in the face) is stopping him if that happens.

[Q99]

Originally Posted by Mith

The problem here are two folds; the first is that the this is simply nibbling at the heels. It's never going to work in the long run. The abyss will just grow to restore the lost parts.

Keep doing so and it'll weaken the plane. Important places won't 'respawn' either- move the capital of a layer off-plane and a new one doesn't pop up, the inhabitants have to time and effort to forge a new one. Take Demogorgon's layer and a new one may take it's place, but it won't be as good.

The second is that even if the Tanar'ri are killed, the OP requires the 666 layers of the abyss, which is its own entity. Killing off its servants only to replace them doesn't exactly beat it.

Taking their place and becoming the new rulers of the Abyss counts as a win, I'd say.

[Mith]

Originally Posted by Aratech

Mostly concerns that someone might try to sneak in an ability that occured thanks to a hijacked Forerunner ship.

Oh, you mean possessions? Doubt that would happen given the OP. Although a demonic Forerunner ship would be badass.

...*smacks forehead*

Actually, the concept as different as the concept may sound, it's really perfect for what the Abyss should be; a cancer.

No, that would be Stalingrad. Berlin is the German Capital.

I'm talking about Berlin actually. Germany built a wall to keep people from entering the allied occupied territory. It was a massive sinkhole for the Soviets for some time until they finally gave up.

Close enough. With enough 'faith' there's nothing to suggest its not possible, especially if he learns magic.

That wouldn't work. First, it's a hive mind, so it would be no different than me ascending because I believed I was a god and worshiped myself.

It depends again, really. A Flood infection form is able to land on, cut into, and convert a large creature like a Brute into one of its own in about three seconds. They don't need a lot of time, and infection forms have no problems swarming by the hundreds to take down and convert a single individual.

True, but the Balors are the ones with the stratigic information. They have a tendency to explode upon death.

Little bit higher, actually. Errtu never showed the physical capabilities of one of these things. And again, under 'proper' circumstances, there'd be billions of these things. Combat forms are Flood cannon fodder. The 'evolved' forms are considerably more powerful, and again, we don't know what other things they might have had during the original war (there is much to suggest that the Gravemind faced in the games is very weak compared to his pre-Halo firing capabilities. As are his minions).

Actually greater demons have become a bit more powerful since their 3e years. Of course, that's not set in stone (ie, there are two balors, one closer to level 20 and the other is 27). But yes, individually most demons are going to be in a tight spot to overcome them in one to one combat.

Actually, his firs move is likely to shift to something with more viable resources, like the Prime.

Yeah...that's not going to happen for some time. There aren't many portals that lead from the Abyss to the material plane and most of those aren't going to be within easy reach. It's a long shot at best.

Outside of direct divine intervention (something the Gods are, again, extremely reluctant to do, even when certain annihilation is staring them and their followers in the face) is stopping him if that happens.

It would be likely they would respond when they saw the problem arise. If worse comes to worse, they could actually ripped the infected ground from beneath the Flood's feat and cast it back into the abyss.

[Mith]

Originally Posted by Q99

Keep doing so and it'll weaken the plane. Important places won't 'respawn' either- move the capital of a layer off-plane and a new one doesn't pop up, the inhabitants have to time and effort to forge a new one. Take Demogorgon's layer and a new one may take it's place, but it won't be as good.

The problem is that entities like Demogorgon and Orcus are equal to gods. Their going to be killing them by the hundreds with every swip. The best the Flood can hope for is to target Demon Lords that aren't yet gods or demigods and take them out first.

And as to my original point, the Abyss can keep growing. It may not be able to perfectly replace a lost layer, but it can replace it with something else.

Taking their place and becoming the new rulers of the Abyss counts as a win, I'd say.

Eh, I don't know. That's sort of saying that sending in ten vampires to kill the Necromancer and his zombies is a victory if they manage to kill all the zombies before the Necromancer dominates them.

[Unhappy Anchovy]

Originally Posted by Aratech

...*smacks forehead*

With the Law/Chaos dichotomy removed, they had to do a bit of work to redefine the differences between demons and devils, and as such the Abyss and the Nine Hells. In earlier settings it was as simple as saying that demons are Chaotic and devils Lawful, but not only was that often a bit too abstract, it also meant that often demons and devils were alignment-switched clones of each other. The pit fiend and the balor are still incredibly similar.

Eventually they worked out that demons are pure evil, while devils are corrupted good. Hence Asmodeus essentially becoming a fallen angel. Well, fallen god, but narratively it's much the same. Demons want to destroy everything. Devils want to rule everything. A demon has no illusions that it is evil. A demon is a primordial force. Devils can be more deluded. Even Asmodeus, somewhere in his black heart, believes that he is the hero. The demons are pure evil and want to destroy the universe. He, Asmodeus, is the one who will stop them. He led the gods against them, but they were not willing to do what had to be done. The universe is broken. It needs salvation, and Asmodeus is the only person strong enough to give it to it. Everyone else is evil; he's the only true good. Whereas demons? They're evil. They know they're evil. They like it and revel in it, making no excuses to themselves. The balor doesn't torture and murder you for any higher cause. It does so because it likes it; because it feels a cosmic imperative, born into its very flesh, to do so.

Which is more evil is interesting and up for debate. On the one hand, devils chose to be evil, at least in the beginning. They could in theory be redeemed. But they choose not to be. Does that make them better or worse? A balor isn't responsible for being what it is.

Anyway, because of this divided, corrupted heroes and the like have all been slid over to the devil side of the equation. Succubi are probably the biggest change. They're now devils, because with this new model, seducing mortals into joining them is not really something demons do. Oh, a 4th ed. demon can be seductive. Demons aren't stupid. But where a pit fiend might tempt you with power, and try to sway you to become a warrior for the Hells, the balor will simply try to drive you insane. The demon wants you to destroy things, including yourself. The devil wants a psychologically stable person committed to the Hells. It doesn't want you to go on a murderous rampage. The demon, on the other hand, does.

And all of this works thematically with the 4th ed. Hells and the Abyss. The Hells are now a divine realm twisted into a hideous mirror of their former brilliance. The Abyss is not some sort of Chaotic counterpart to the Hells; now it's more like the yawning darkness beneath all things, a chaotic, hungry void that swallows all light, all goodness, all order...

This is very differently to the 3.5 cosmology, yes. I just treat them as totally disconnected. The 4th ed. Hells and Abyss have nothing to do with the 3.5 Hells and Abyss. They are completely different places.

It's only stupid when people try to equate the 3.5 and 4th ed. planes. They're not; they're very different. When official settings try to convert them - the Forgotten Realms is the only one to have done this so far - they go horribly wrong.