Twilight Addition

[sdjsdj]

Two hundred thousand randomly selected humans, spread across Twilight earth (as of the start of New Moon), are infected with a nontransmissible retrovirus, which will - over the course of three months - convert them to a fully-fledged member of the subspecies Homo Sapiens Vampiris. Genius. Predator. Sociopath.

A week into this process, before anything beyond an increase in aggression is evident, a mysterious hooded figure visits each and explains what's happening to them, and that they're sharing the planet with another nonhuman species. He/she/it then elaborates on the physical charateristics and abilities of Twilight vampires.

As if further incitement were needed for them to attack the competition, they're informed that if they successfully wipe out the rival species, they will be cured of the Crucifix Glitch and the need to drink human blood.

Each of the new vampires is then issued one year's supply of the antieuclidian neurotrope required for their survival and details of how to contact the five others closest to it, for the purposes of coordinating their efforts.

What happens?

[Dessolution]

wait...so you basically turned normal humans into psychopathic vampires and the mysterious figure would cure them if they do what he asked? I really doubt they would want to be cured...ya know..being psychopathic an all...

[sdjsdj]

Originally Posted by Dessolution

wait...so you basically turned normal humans into psychopathic vampires and the mysterious figure would cure them if they do what he asked? I really doubt they would want to be cured...ya know..being psychopathic an all...

Not cured of everything, just the unfortunate tendency to die when exposed to intersecting right-angles without a supply of the right drug on hand.

[Ben Who Devours]

well, they're not going to win in a straight up fight. However they are ridiculously smart omnisavants, so they don't have to. I reckon they can probably think of something.

[Sayle]

Ugh...god...right angles...just the mention of them caused all kinds of stupid pains.

[WyldCard4]

Um, I'm going to say absolutely nothing will get accomplished.

These are the Blindsight vampires, right? I may be thinking of something a lot weaker than these ones.

Now, Alice's precognition is not going to work on this race, they think too differently from humans and local vampires. This is going to matter very little.

First of all, there are three known types of vampire living styles:

1. Hide in plain sight. The Cullens do this. They look and act exactly like pale humans who stick to themselves. Unless you have a moderately close relationship with them, you aren't going to notice anything that screams vampire. Maybe a genius Blindsight vampire could figure it out, but I'm not banking on it.
2. Rule in secret. The Volturi do this. They rule a city said to have been mystically protected from vampires since the Dark Ages, and feed extremely discretely on imported humans. Very few people even know they exist at all.
3. Nomads. These live more like wild animals or drifters than anything else. They move across the land and feed far apart, using animal attacks and serial killers to cover their tracks.

Now, I know Blindsight vampires are smart, but they are completely crippled in a modern world full of humans and right angles. They are also antisocial to each other, as well as themselves. For the most part they're going to run into hiding, fleeing humans and right angles. They're only 200 thousand of them, and they have no support structure like they did in Blindsight, where they were found to be extremely useful in a civilization approaching a Singularity, and where they were employed by governments and corporations. They have no such foothold here.

I simply don't see them having much luck.

[Ben Who Devours]

Originally Posted by WyldCard4

Um, I'm going to say absolutely nothing will get accomplished.

These are the Blindsight vampires, right? I may be thinking of something a lot weaker than these ones.

Now, Alice's precognition is not going to work on this race, they think too differently from humans and local vampires. This is going to matter very little.

First of all, there are three known types of vampire living styles:

1. Hide in plain sight. The Cullens do this. They look and act exactly like pale humans who stick to themselves. Unless you have a moderately close relationship with them, you aren't going to notice anything that screams vampire. Maybe a genius Blindsight vampire could figure it out, but I'm not banking on it.
2. Rule in secret. The Volturi do this. They rule a city said to have been mystically protected from vampires since the Dark Ages, and feed extremely discretely on imported humans. Very few people even know they exist at all.
3. Nomads. These live more like wild animals or drifters than anything else. They move across the land and feed far apart, using animal attacks and serial killers to cover their tracks.

Now, I know Blindsight vampires are smart, but they are completely crippled in a modern world full of humans and right angles. They are also antisocial to each other, as well as themselves. For the most part they're going to run into hiding, fleeing humans and right angles. They're only 200 thousand of them, and they have no support structure like they did in Blindsight, where they were found to be extremely useful in a civilization approaching a Singularity, and where they were employed by governments and corporations. They have no such foothold here.

I simply don't see them having much luck.

They have their antieuclidians, they can live. And remember that they were used to track down spies, moles, traitors etc during wartime-they are described as being impossibly good at identifying and uncovering people who try to hide. They are also more than intelligent, they are utterly superhuman in their prediction and reasoning capabilities.

[WyldCard4]

Originally Posted by Ben Who Devours

They have their antieuclidians, they can live. And remember that they were used to track down spies, moles, traitors etc during wartime-they are described as being impossibly good at identifying and uncovering people who try to hide. They are also more than intelligent, they are utterly superhuman in their prediction and reasoning capabilities.

Blindsight was in a state of domestic terrorism that made their kind invaluable.

Our world isn't. We aren't even close to Blindsight levels. We aren't going to welcome them,, we're going to be taking out pitchforks and torches. Our governments will too.

I imagine major governments might like a team of a dozen of them, but this is 200,000. This is terrifying. They're going to have to hide at the very least.

They're good at finding people, there is a difference between that and finding these creatures, incredibly mobile and secretive. There are also real issues in hunting defeating them at all without superspeed. They've got the ability to out react humans to a very impressive degree, and enough physical power to kill five humans a second without trouble. Bullets are a sore issue here, but actually hitting them is unlikely. The mobile ones won't have a place to plant bombs, and the stay at homes never sleep and should survive most attacks at range.

Defeat the Cullens? I'd say the answer is yes. Defeat the Volturi? Maybe. Catch hundreds of nomadic vampires with considerable power running fast as cars across the world hiding their tracks under animal attacks and serial killers? They aren't going to catch them all, and probably not most of them.

If they had government support? Maybe. But they won't, they're disturbing, they're the monsters we evolved to fear. We're going to kill every single one we can find, and paint crosses on every door and window. They have to fight a two front war against two more powerful enemies.

[Ben Who Devours]

The Blindsight vampires have superspeed-they can remove a mote from a human's eye before that man has time to blink. Whilst they may be slower than their enemies, they should be able to track them with guns. Also, I think they probably will get help from governments etc. Their intelligence and predictive skills are simply too great to be ignored-they can provide a huge advantage to any humans who would have them. If they are revealed to the public madness ensues, obviously, but once again they are clever. Humans can't even comprehend the stuff they can, not just normal people but seriously modified humans in their own right. Siri outright says that probably nobody on the Theseus has an IQ which doesn't fall short by at least 100 points.

I'm not saying they certainly win, but they aren't certain to lose. Even if they can't track down every vampire, the sparklies can't deal with all them.

[StarSpawn]

It would be a bloody war, the Twillight predators would NOT accept the new predator, and would do their outmost in removing them from the planets surface, also the 'Average' Twilight vamp is somewhat faster, much stronger and far more durable than any Blindsight vamp could ever hope to be.
The only real hope all sides (Humans exceptet) have in this case, is that ther war dosn't come to the notice of the big goverments since then the shit is REALLY going to hit the fan.

[WyldCard4]

Originally Posted by Ben Who Devours

The Blindsight vampires have superspeed-they can remove a mote from a human's eye before that man has time to blink. Whilst they may be slower than their enemies, they should be able to track them with guns. Also, I think they probably will get help from governments etc. Their intelligence and predictive skills are simply too great to be ignored-they can provide a huge advantage to any humans who would have them. If they are revealed to the public madness ensues, obviously, but once again they are clever. Humans can't even comprehend the stuff they can, not just normal people but seriously modified humans in their own right. Siri outright says that probably nobody on the Theseus has an IQ which doesn't fall short by at least 100 points.

I'm not saying they certainly win, but they aren't certain to lose. Even if they can't track down every vampire, the sparklies can't deal with all them.

I forgot about superspeed. Not sure how quantified it is, but I'd generally take Twilight's fairly solid speed feats above Blindsight's without more evidence.

I also suspect humanity might side with the Twampires over the Blampires. The Twampires are far more controllable and less likely to randomly rape you for no reason. There's also that the Twampires are inherently attractive to humans as a hunting strategy, while the Blampires are inherently disturbing.

As I mentioned, I think the Blampires will get a solid strike in, likely taking out the sedentary vampires (50/50 IMO) but I think the nomads will just be too hard to isolate and strike with sufficient firepower.

Originally Posted by StarSpawn

It would be a bloody war, the Twillight predators would NOT accept the new predator, and would do their outmost in removing them from the planets surface, also the 'Average' Twilight vamp is somewhat faster, much stronger and far more durable than any Blindsight vamp could ever hope to be.
The only real hope all sides (Humans exceptet) have in this case, is that ther war dosn't come to the notice of the big goverments since then the shit is REALLY going to hit the fan.

Well, as Blampires winning could easily end up with Blampires unleashing their full blown sociopathic tendencies and intelligence towards humanity...

The world the Twampires made for themselves is this one, where most of the supernatural is dead and no one believes in vampires. Blampires laughed and destroyed Heaven and decided to taker over the world.

The Volturi wouldn't even have to lie about the situation, though being creative with the truth could really help them. They're facing a sudden onslaught of genius sociopaths that want to destroy them. They sell themselves as the defenders of humanity against chaotic vampires that keep violence from spilling over (only a slight lie) and bring up just how bad these guys are. I think we'd side with those who shine in the sun above those who cannot rest their eyes on a cross.

It's interesting to note that the trappings of vampire weaknesses (crosses, garlic, ect...) are the creation of the Volturi in universe.

Finally, I'd like to point out that the Blampires lost to humans the first time around. Socially they were always disorganized, and the inability to rest their eyes on right angles crippled them. The Twampires are far stronger than the stone age humans that survived that ancient war.

[Ben Who Devours]

The Blampires never lost to humans in war-they lost because of the Crucifix Glitch. Now, they have drugs. Also, Jukka Sarasti has a visor which makes it all better. Kinda obvious, but yeah. And they only took down the Blindsight world because the humans gave them the chance-they went the uploading/hooked up to machines route whilst the vampires stayed awake (they could see the pixels), so the vamps seemed to go "Eh, why not?" and took charge.

What it comes down to:

Twampires: strength, endurance, charisma, probably speed
Blampires: Intelligence, numbers

What it comes down to is whether the Blampires can manipulate humans better than the Twampires. They are more cunning and have more to offer, but are much more unsettling. In a straight up fight they are inferior but can use weapons to make up for that (they probably have the reflexes to track the Twamps with guns, for instance). They have numbers, but that's limited by their trouble in communicating with each other throughout violence.

All things considered, I think humans are more likely to side with the crystal perfect people-Twampires win by manipulating humans. Whereas without that intervention, I'd give it to the Blampires.

[mr wednesday]

If you haven't read Blindsight, you should. You really should. In terms of modern sci fi it ranks up there with Fire Upon The Deep or Revelation Space for its quality. Its probably the best "first contact" story to come out since Mote In God's Eye. It combines a depth of thought about aliens that you last found in Charles Pellegrino with the deft narrative touch one finds in Niven or Reynolds. And its scary too. I don't mean "Slasher Matinee" scary, I mean old school coke addled Stephen King scary. And best of all its free! (But buy it if you want to support good writing)


This setup is pretty heavily biased against the HSV. 200,000 people around the globe means they are going to be incredibly poor - keep in mind that 1/3rd of the worlds population gets by on <$1/day, more then half <$2.50/day, and about 80% <$10/day. They are going to be poorly educated (following reality about 1 in 5 will be illiterate while only 1% will have a college education), they have no way to communicate and coordinate (they won't speak the same language), and they will be spread across the normal age spectrum, with some being infants and some being bed ridden geriatrics. These factors alone make them a non threat.

No, a far better or at least fair set up here would be for a force of 200,000 to be dropped in here from Blindsight, albeit without any future technology.


As to what they can to, most statements about them are hyperbole from terrified and biased sources. The only firm speed indicator I remember was how fast Jukka was moving in free fall, but that is tainted by Siri's fear. There was however Jukka's reflexes, when Bates was annoying him with the ball. Of course the extend of Bates soldier augments are never really explored, so even then the fact he was that much faster then her isn't particularly telling. Suffice to say they are faster and stronger than an enhanced human soldier. They are however still homonids and lack supernatural powers, so probably less physically advantaged then the Twilight vampires.

That however isn't the real issue either. The chief advantage they have here is their frighteningly high intelligence. They are functionally identical to a supercomputer built for the most high end scientific and military project built by a society with 80 years more advancement then we have now. A society that can build full "Matrix Style" virtual reality and neural uploading to simulate the real world with sufficient precision that AIs can solve problems that baseline humans can't even articulate the question to, much less understand the answer (hence the need for people like Siri). Their pattern recognition is off the charts and lets them do things that are near magical. Jukka and Theseus went up against Rorschach and held their own until then end. And arguably, they won - the Scramblers construct was destroyed and their next move is decades if not hundreds of years away.

Additionally, they have their sociopathy (and yes that is an advantage, look at the finance industry or your countries politicians. A shockingly high number of them have antisocial personality disorder). Twilight vampires are running the baseline human neural hardware. Love, compassion, mercy, etc. They just won't have the drive in them to do anything as sick as HSV's "judo" trick coming in the sequel. There certainly would be no qualms in say gaming a financial institution (heck maybe the whole stock market if they are smart enough) to give themselves a war chest to match or exceed what the twilight vamps have. In fact I'd be surprised if they didn't do this, if only because the financial markets would be the first place to look for evidence of the Twilight vampires. When you live that long you have to accumulate at least a few dollars. From there compound interest and your lifespan take care of the rest. So they will have no problems taking out whatever they have to that gets in the way of them accomplishing their goal.

Twilight vamps are former humans. HSV had millions of years worth of evolution to shape them into excellent human hunters. Once a balanced start is put in play things really don't look to be in their favor. Even if a twilight vamp can physically overpower them in a straight physical fight, that just means the HSV will just make sure it isn't a straight physical fight.

Originally Posted by WyldCard4

Finally, I'd like to point out that the Blampires lost to humans the first time around. Socially they were always disorganized, and the inability to rest their eyes on right angles crippled them. The Twampires are far stronger than the stone age humans that survived that ancient war.

What are you talking about? There was never any war. Most of them simply died, with some breeding into the population. That's how we were able to bring them back, scientists found the trigger genes in their modern descendants, the sociopaths and autistics. Have you not read the book, or is this a reflection of some really warped views?

[mr wednesday]

Originally Posted by Ben Who Devours

Also, Jukka Sarasti has a visor which makes it all better. Kinda obvious, but yeah. And they only took down the Blindsight world because the humans gave them the chance-they went the uploading/hooked up to machines route whilst the vampires stayed awake (they could see the pixels), so the vamps seemed to go "Eh, why not?" and took charge.

The visor was just to cover his eyes so it wouldn't freak the humans out. And we don't really know how the vamps accomplished their genocide, that's apparently the topic of the next book. It wasn't slow or easy though, we know that from the fleeing colony ships at the end of Blindsight.

What it comes down to is whether the Blampires can manipulate humans better than the Twampires. They are more cunning and have more to offer, but are much more unsettling. In a straight up fight they are inferior but can use weapons to make up for that (they probably have the reflexes to track the Twamps with guns, for instance). They have numbers, but that's limited by their trouble in communicating with each other throughout violence.

All things considered, I think humans are more likely to side with the crystal perfect people-Twampires win by manipulating humans. Whereas without that intervention, I'd give it to the Blampires.

Twilight vamps definitely have an advantage in working with baseline humans. Blindsight vamps terrify people just by walking across the street to Starbucks, and the eyes, jawline, and limbs make them stand out just enough to make them recognizable. They will have a hard time blending in. That said, playing it off as a kind of albinism or saying they have a sight problem that requires them to wear sunglasses or something would work in any of the more industrialized nations. Beyond that, if any of them get a foot hold in any kind of power scenario they can negate any ill will too. Money pours a lot of oil on troubled waters.

And of course, there is the real question of if the humans would side with the twilight vamps one they knew what was going on. Both factions are predators after all, but Blindsight vamps don't need to eat humans to live anymore. Twilight vamps still need blood. I'd say the most likely result is that baseline humans try and wipe both sides out.

[WyldCard4]

[QUOTE=mr wednesday;4564532
Twilight vamps are former humans. HSV had millions of years worth of evolution to shape them into excellent human hunters. Once a balanced start is put in play things really don't look to be in their favor. Even if a twilight vamp can physically overpower them in a straight physical fight, that just means the HSV will just make sure it isn't a straight physical fight.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's as easy as it's been made out. I'll link to the Midnight Sun PDF. The PDF is cannon and is where most of their feats are described best.

http://stepheniemeyer.com/pdf/midnig...ial_draft4.pdf

Page 12, a combat estimation by an experienced Twilight vampire has him snapping five necks a second without the slightest trouble, killing everyone in the room in five seconds.

Page 58 describes exactly what Edward did in the famous van scene. He leaped all the way across a parking lot too fast for human eyes to see. Yanked her out of the van's path in 1/100th of a second (possibly hyperbole) and held the speeding van with his hands, tossed it back a bit, and stopped it again with one hand until it wouldn't harm Bella.

There are also the durability feats. Casually letting bears maul them, withstanding punches with the strength I just described without trouble (they need to use their teeth, can't even force steel needs through their own kind's flesh) and similar. They also don't have any real need for their organs, and are repaired if they are ripped to pieces.

Now I love Blindsight and I respect the Blampires, but I think there is such a significant power differential that it wouldn't be as simple as not confronting them physically.

What are you talking about? There was never any war. Most of them simply died, with some breeding into the population. That's how we were able to bring them back, scientists found the trigger genes in their modern descendants, the sociopaths and autistics. Have you not read the book, or is this a reflection of some really warped views?

I didn't say there was a "war." I said we won.

The entire species had epileptic fits when looking at right angles and died out despite all their superiority. They also are antisocial to each other (as described in Blindsight) and sociopathic. Humanity proved to be the more resilient species where it actually mattered, winning.

Originally Posted by mr wednesday

The visor was just to cover his eyes so it wouldn't freak the humans out. And we don't really know how the vamps accomplished their genocide, that's apparently the topic of the next book. It wasn't slow or easy though, we know that from the fleeing colony ships at the end of Blindsight.

A new book will be coming out?

I'm looking forward to it. Magnificent first book.

I honestly suspected that it was Siri's own delusion at the end of Blindsight, given his mental state. Seems I was wrong, but he wasn't exactly the most reliable narrator when he was floating through space after his ship was blown up. All we know is that Heaven was destroyed and Earth was suffering through a crisis.

Blindsight is also notable in that weapons technology had progressed beyond humanity. We saw the sprays that killed Siri's girlfriend that were employed by the "realists" and the robot soldiers that were employed by the general. Blindsight vampires could wipe out humanity using such devices, an option that isn't really there in our own universe.

Twilight vamps definitely have an advantage in working with baseline humans. Blindsight vamps terrify people just by walking across the street to Starbucks, and the eyes, jawline, and limbs make them stand out just enough to make them recognizable. They will have a hard time blending in. That said, playing it off as a kind of albinism or saying they have a sight problem that requires them to wear sunglasses or something would work in any of the more industrialized nations. Beyond that, if any of them get a foot hold in any kind of power scenario they can negate any ill will too. Money pours a lot of oil on troubled waters.

I'm not so sure. We saw Jukka surrounded himself with screaming human faces and who knows what else, and still wasn't satisfied without raping and torturing a real person. Admittedly there is an issue of how much of it was completely intentional for his great scheme, but I honestly think they're going to have a lot of trouble in positions of real power with modern media and policing.

And of course, there is the real question of if the humans would side with the twilight vamps one they knew what was going on. Both factions are predators after all, but Blindsight vamps don't need to eat humans to live anymore. Twilight vamps still need blood. I'd say the most likely result is that baseline humans try and wipe both sides out.

I think the Volturi could sell themselves better than that. There's also that the Blindsight vampires still do horrible things, even when they don't have to. Blampires want to wipe humans out, Twampires want to stay hidden.

[mr wednesday]

Originally Posted by WyldCard4

*snip*

I conceded the physical superiority. I just don't see how it is relevant.

Now I love Blindsight and I respect the Blampires, but I think there is such a significant power differential that it wouldn't be as simple as not confronting them physically.

No, it is exactly that simple. As is proven by the entirety of history.

I didn't say there was a "war." I said we won.

No, you explicitly stated there was an ancient war. I quoted you. You can see it in my post. Here it is again. Post 11 in the thread, the final line

The Twampires are far stronger than the stone age humans that survived that ancient war.

The entire species had epileptic fits when looking at right angles and died out despite all their superiority. They also are antisocial to each other (as described in Blindsight) and sociopathic. Humanity proved to be the more resilient species where it actually mattered, winning.

You don't really "get" evolution, do you? There is no such thing as "winning".

A new book will be coming out?

I'm looking forward to it. Magnificent first book.

Preview chapter is up on rifters, no word on when it is coming out or progress on it in a while though.

I honestly suspected that it was Siri's own delusion at the end of Blindsight, given his mental state. Seems I was wrong, but he wasn't exactly the most reliable narrator when he was floating through space after his ship was blown up. All we know is that Heaven was destroyed and Earth was suffering through a crisis.

No, baselines got genocided by HSV in some sort of undefined coup

Blindsight is also notable in that weapons technology had progressed beyond humanity. We saw the sprays that killed Siri's girlfriend that were employed by the "realists" and the robot soldiers that were employed by the general. Blindsight vampires could wipe out humanity using such devices, an option that isn't really there in our own universe.

There's also a rather stark difference between killing 10 billion people spread across the inner solar system and a small group numbering in the thousands, most of whom are rather out of date with the modern world. Even the Cullen's, who are shown to be relatively forward thinking, are running in about the 1830's in terms of interaction.

I'm not so sure. We saw Jukka surrounded himself with screaming human faces and who knows what else,

Did you read the backmatter? Turns out the faces thing is real and very effective.

and still wasn't satisfied without raping and torturing a real person. Admittedly there is an issue of how much of it was completely intentional for his great scheme, but I honestly think they're going to have a lot of trouble in positions of real power with modern media and policing.

Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer has compared giving people government assistance to "feeding stray animals."

Bauer, who is running for the Republican nomination for governor, made his remarks during a town hall meeting in Fountain Inn that included state lawmakers and about 115 residents.

"My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why? Because they breed. You're facilitating the problem if you give an animal or a person ample food supply. They will reproduce, especially ones that don't think too much further than that. And so what you've got to do is you've got to curtail that type of behavior. They don't know any better," Bauer said.

In South Carolina, 58 percent of students participate in the free and reduced-price lunch program.

link

Compared to America's politicians, if anything, HSV isn't sociopathic enough

I think the Volturi could sell themselves better than that. There's also that the Blindsight vampires still do horrible things, even when they don't have to. Blampires want to wipe humans out, Twampires want to stay hidden.

We haven't enslaved them like the baselines in Blindsight did, and we don't know what if anything was the trigger for the ideology that led to genocide, the idea that it was "righting an ancient wrong" was Siri's conclusion, and as you've pointed out he was not in a rational mental state. We have nothing that should lead us to the conclusion that they will attempt to re-enact those events here.

Contrast the unsupported hypothesis that HSV will enact genocide with the fact that the Volturi routinely commit it to keep vampires secret and it doesnt' bode well for the idea we would side with them

[WyldCard4]

Originally Posted by mr wednesday

I conceded the physical superiority. I just don't see how it is relevant.

Because the superiority matters in actual combat situations.

Given the superior speed they'll be able to at least aim dodge most attempts at shooting them. Superior regeneration/damage soak means they'll be able to keep fighting when hit. Superior strength means they'll be hard to trap or waylay. Not needing to breath means they can travel through water as well as land (used to great effect by Victoria). Their superior senses will mean they'll know that the Blampires aren't human far easier than humans could.

Given their advantages (as Blampires have zero feats that really prove they could react to beings who can move across a parking lot in less than a second or snap 4 necks per second) the main way that comes to mind to hunt them is setting a trap with heavy weaponry. This is why I think the sedentary vampires will die.

You could set up a trap with sufficient force to destroy a Twampire if you have a place to set the trap up. The problem is the ones on the move, and that they're highly unpredictable. As smart as Blampires are, I don't see them being able to anticipate the exact movements and prey patterns of the Twampires with sufficient skill to set up traps of sufficient power to kill them on a regular basis.

No, it is exactly that simple. As is proven by the entirety of history.

How exactly is history proving that added capabilities aren't useful?

History and evolution also don't apply well to this scenario. There has never been a war where one side possessed superpowers, and there has never been a war involving superhuman intelligences.

What historical examples disprove that fairly significant superhuman abilities wouldn't matter on a battlefield? I can think of some examples where different abilities among normal humans shaped culture and history.

1. Europe in the Middle Ages. Nobles had access to vastly superior weapons, armor, and training, making it very hard for rebellions to work.
2. European colonization in Africa. Weaponry made it so that even superior numbers of natives on their home soil could suffer massive casualties in battle with European forces.

No, you explicitly stated there was an ancient war. I quoted you. You can see it in my post. Here it is again. Post 11 in the thread, the final line

I went back and read it. I have absolutely no idea why I said that. I know there wasn't a war where humans and vampires fought each other in Blindsight. I have no idea why I typed that. I think I might have been trying to be poetic or something, but I concede stupidity there.

You don't really "get" evolution, do you? There is no such thing as "winning".

Let's see...

Grey squirrels invade Europe. Superior nut collecting styles lead to them out competing red squirrels. They starve to death. A direct conflict between to species, one species proved superior, the other died out. I would consider that winning.

I consider the interaction between humans and vampires of Blindsight to be similar in kind. Admittedly humans were a prey species where conditions suddenly turned to favor them, so it was less direct competition and more vampires went extinct, but given that human environmental effects caused it I think saying humans "won" isn't that far off.

No, baselines got genocided by HSV in some sort of undefined coup

I finished Blindsight around 5AM after staying up all night reading it. I was under the impression it ended with Siri talking about reports of a crisis on Earth, and his mother dying when Heaven was shut down. I may just have been too tired and missed a line involving a general genocide. I was under the impression that something fairly undefined was happening on Earth that Siri believed vampires were causing, not that it ended with Earth destroyed by vampires.

As I said, I finished it very late at night. I really like that book.

There's also a rather stark difference between killing 10 billion people spread across the inner solar system and a small group numbering in the thousands, most of whom are rather out of date with the modern world. Even the Cullen's, who are shown to be relatively forward thinking, are running in about the 1830's in terms of interaction.

Where did you come to that conclusion?

Only one of the Cullens was even alive in 1830. The rest were turned since the Civil War, and most of them in the first half of this century. The eldest of them works as a doctor while the rest have been in school or worked constantly since they were turned. The Cullens are a bit of a band of social outcasts, but that has less to do with modernness and more to do with the fact that they are tormented by wanting to eat people when they hang out with them.

Did you read the backmatter? Turns out the faces thing is real and very effective.

Actually no.

link

Compared to America's politicians, if anything, HSV isn't sociopathic enough

Not a bad point.

We haven't enslaved them like the baselines in Blindsight did, and we don't know what if anything was the trigger for the ideology that led to genocide, the idea that it was "righting an ancient wrong" was Siri's conclusion, and as you've pointed out he was not in a rational mental state. We have nothing that should lead us to the conclusion that they will attempt to re-enact those events here.

We're two species with the same niche (probably, humans were pursuit predators and vampires hunted them, neither one is that applicable now) and one is vastly smarter and enjoys hurting people. Another genocide isn't certain, but I'd say it is the most likely conclusion in the long term. Once we read the next book we'll know more. If it was a reaction to their conditions it would be likely that they'd let us be, if it was done because of resources conflict or because they feared human numbers or society they'd likely do it again.

Contrast the unsupported hypothesis that HSV will enact genocide with the fact that the Volturi routinely commit it to keep vampires secret and it doesnt' bode well for the idea we would side with them.

Murder? Yes, a lot. Genocide? I can't think of an instance of them committing an act of genocide on humanity. They routinely slaughter "covens" of their own race to keep their secret, but those covens are largely slaughtered because they do things that would lead to more violence such as turning children or mass turning. As I said earlier the Volturi could sell themselves as our hidden protectors, if they get the chance.

I admit I said a couple of stupid things, but I think that you're underestimating the effects of superhuman powers on combat and tracking. This is something fairly outside of the context of human experience, especially in the Blampires case.

I did read Blindsight, and found it excellently written though strange. The author's ideas were good, though I didn't really agree with his alien concepts as realistic.

[mr wednesday]

Originally Posted by WyldCard4

Because the superiority matters in actual combat situations.

Not since the middle ages it hasn't. Superior technology wins the day.

Given the superior speed they'll be able to at least aim dodge most attempts at shooting them.

They kind of need to know the attack is coming, don't they?

Superior regeneration/damage soak means they'll be able to keep fighting when hit. Superior strength means they'll be hard to trap or waylay.

How does superior strength mean they are hard to trap? It would be pattern recognition that would let one tell if they were walking into a trap or not.

Not needing to breath means they can travel through water as well as land (used to great effect by Victoria).

I suppose they could try hiding at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

Their superior senses will mean they'll know that the Blampires aren't human far easier than humans could.

HSV has enough physical differences that they stand out pretty well.

A more interesting question is given the vastly different neuroarchitecture between HSV and HSS, will their powers works against them. If not the Twlight vamps lost an advantage they are used to having in most conflicts.

Given their advantages (as Blampires have zero feats that really prove they could react to beings who can move across a parking lot in less than a second or snap 4 necks per second) the main way that comes to mind to hunt them is setting a trap with heavy weaponry. This is why I think the sedentary vampires will die.

Not really, you just need to be smart. Poisons, gases, IEDs, etc etc etc.

Intelligence and planning allow one to overcome incredible disadvantages. Consider how the Fins were able to defeat Soviet tanks, or the actions of insurgents in any of the post WW2 wars. And HSV have those abilities in spades. Plus there are apparently more of them.

You could set up a trap with sufficient force to destroy a Twampire if you have a place to set the trap up. The problem is the ones on the move, and that they're highly unpredictable. As smart as Blampires are, I don't see them being able to anticipate the exact movements and prey patterns of the Twampires with sufficient skill to set up traps of sufficient power to kill them on a regular basis.

Actually that's exactly what they were initially used for in the novel. They were originally used to track terrorists, spies, and saboteurs. It just means they need to amp up the firepower applied at the end point.

How exactly is history proving that added capabilities aren't useful?

Not my claim. My point is that the vastly superior intelligence of HSV is better than the superior physical abilities of twilight vamps. As to that question, Brains vs Brawn? When was the last time you ate a steak?

History and evolution also don't apply well to this scenario. There has never been a war where one side possessed superpowers, and there has never been a war involving superhuman intelligences.

The intelligence gap that this would involve, no. But it is instructive to look at histories examples where there were moderate gaps in the education level between populaces. Now you are talking about gaps orders of magnitude greater.

What historical examples disprove that fairly significant superhuman abilities wouldn't matter on a battlefield?

The Battle of Agincourt seems pretty pointed there (excuse the pun). The knights has vastly superior physical abilities compared to the conscripted peasants. Armor, blades, strength, speed (horses), etc. And superior technology massacred them.

I can think of some examples where different abilities among normal humans shaped culture and history.

1. Europe in the Middle Ages. Nobles had access to vastly superior weapons, armor, and training, making it very hard for rebellions to work.
2. European colonization in Africa. Weaponry made it so that even superior numbers of natives on their home soil could suffer massive casualties in battle with European forces.

Yes, that's rather my point. In those cases the superior advantage was the hardware. And it was the result of education and judiciously applied intelligence, not any particular superior physical ability.

Let's see...

Grey squirrels invade Europe. Superior nut collecting styles lead to them out competing red squirrels. They starve to death. A direct conflict between to species, one species proved superior, the other died out. I would consider that winning.

The conflict wasn't between them, it was between them and the selective pressure of the environment. And the "victor" would not be the species, but the genes they carry. And even then, the real point of evolution is that there is no victor this side of heat death.

Where did you come to that conclusion?

Only one of the Cullens was even alive in 1830. The rest were turned since the Civil War, and most of them in the first half of this century. The eldest of them works as a doctor while the rest have been in school or worked constantly since they were turned. The Cullens are a bit of a band of social outcasts, but that has less to do with modernness and more to do with the fact that they are tormented by wanting to eat people when they hang out with them.

Have you read any literary criticism of the series? I was speaking of the extremely heavy classically traditional Mormon overtones in the interactions between the characters. In terms of how the characters dealt with each other, gender roles, societal roles, etc they are essentially Mormon fundamentalists minus polygamy.

Actually no.

I highly recommend it, I found it fascinating. It includes a complete breakdown of Scrambler physiology, details on the suspended animation process and the Theseus, HSV details, etc.

We're two species with the same niche (probably, humans were pursuit predators and vampires hunted them, neither one is that applicable now) and one is vastly smarter and enjoys hurting people. Another genocide isn't certain, but I'd say it is the most likely conclusion in the long term. Once we read the next book we'll know more. If it was a reaction to their conditions it would be likely that they'd let us be, if it was done because of resources conflict or because they feared human numbers or society they'd likely do it again.

We will of course have to wait for either State of Grace of Dumbspeach (I'm not sure which is the title of the sequel)to come out to see.

Murder? Yes, a lot. Genocide? I can't think of an instance of them committing an act of genocide on humanity. They routinely slaughter "covens" of their own race to keep their secret, but those covens are largely slaughtered because they do things that would lead to more violence such as turning children or mass turning. As I said earlier the Volturi could sell themselves as our hidden protectors, if they get the chance.

They also kill the surrounding town to cover up the witnesses. Perhaps that should be classified as "mass murder" but by UN standards it qualifies as ethnic cleansing.

Though I suppose I shouldn't underestimate the possible influence of mass media to completely cover that up. We do it with other instances of ethnic cleansing routinely enough. Look at how much time the current massacres in Nigeria are getting in the news cycle.

I admit I said a couple of stupid things, but I think that you're underestimating the effects of superhuman powers on combat and tracking. This is something fairly outside of the context of human experience, especially in the Blampires case.

And I think you are vastly underestimating the impact of superior intelligence on the scenario.

[Memphet'ran]

Originally Posted by WyldCard4

I finished Blindsight around 5AM after staying up all night reading it. I was under the impression it ended with Siri talking about reports of a crisis on Earth, and his mother dying when Heaven was shut down. I may just have been too tired and missed a line involving a general genocide. I was under the impression that something fairly undefined was happening on Earth that Siri believed vampires were causing, not that it ended with Earth destroyed by vampires.

What's happening isn't explicitly stated, but if you read between the lines it's pretty heavily implied that the Vampires are killing off humanity.

Originally Posted by Blindsight

I've been listening to the radio during these intermittent awakenings. It's been generations since we buried the Broadcast Age in tightbeams and fiberop, but we never completely stopped sowing EM throughout the heavens. Earth, Mars, and Luna conduct their interplanetary trialog in a million overlapping voices. Every ship cruising the void speaks in all directions at once. The O'Neils and the asteroids never stopped singing. The Fireflies might never have found us if they had.

I've heard those songs changing over time, a fast-forward time-lapse into oblivion. Now it's mostly traffic control and telemetry. Every now and then I still hear a burst of pure voice, tight with tension, just short of outright panic more often than not: some sort of pursuit in progress, a ship making the plunge into deep space, other ships in dispassionate pursuit. The fugitives never seem to get very far before their signals are cut off.

I can't remember the last time I heard music but I hear something like it sometimes, eerie and discordant, full of familiar clicks and pops. My brainstem doesn't like it. It scares my brainstem to death.

I remember my whole generation abandoning the real world for a bootstrapped Afterlife. I remember someone saying Vampires don't go to Heaven. They see the pixels. Sometimes I wonder how I'd feel, brought back from the peace of the grave to toil at the pleasure of simpleminded creatures who had once been no more than protein. I wonder how I'd feel if my disability had been used to keep me leashed and denied my rightful place in the world.

And then I wonder what it would be like to feel nothing at all, to be an utterly rational, predatory creature with meat putting itself so eagerly to sleep on all sides...

If you read the end notes, the bolded part is suggestive...

Originally Posted by Blindsight end notes

You'll have noticed that Jukka Sarasti, like all reconstructed vampires, sometimes clicked to himself when thinking. This is thought to hail from an ancestral language, which was hardwired into a click-speech mode more than 50,000 years BP. Click-based speech is especially suited to predators stalking prey on savannah grasslands (the clicks mimic the rustling of grasses, allowing communication without spooking quarry)11. The Human language most closely akin to Old Vampire is Hadzane12.

Edit: also about the question of whether the way humans treated Vampires had any effect on that, there is this, from the preview to the next book set in that universe:

Originally Posted by State Of Grace

Suddenly her words were a flood: "I'm sorry, I was never really part of it you know, I'm just a research associate, I'm just doing it for my degree that's all, I know it's wrong, I know it's like, like slavery almost, I know that and it's a shitty system, it's a shitty thing we did to you but it wasn't really me, do you understand? I didn't make any of those decisions, I just came in afterwards, I'm barely involved, it was just for my degree. And I, I can understand how you must feel, I can understand why you'd hate us and want revenge I would too probably but please please, I'm just...I'm just a student..."

After a while, still alive, she dared to look up again. The vampire was staring at some point just to the left of her. It seemed distracted. But then they always seemed distracted, their minds running a dozen parallel threads simultaneously, a dozen perceptual realities, each every bit as real as the one mere humans occupied.

Valerie cocked its head as if listening to faint music. It almost smiled.

"Please..." Sachie whispered.

"Not angry," it said. "Don't want revenge. You don't matter."

It could be a lie, but it seems in-character.

[WyldCard4]

Did anyone else see that we're on Peter Watts's blog now?

http://www.rifters.com/crawl/

Second one down from the top.

Kind of neat.

Sorry I didn't reply to the last post, I've been very busy for the last couple days. I will get to it.

[Marius_Falco]

Although I'd hate to piss on anyone's 'Twi-Hard' parade, i must point out a simple fact.

Spike would kill the first half, and bugger the socend half of these sodding little tossers before the sun came up.



And after that, he'd be off to the Outback for a pint and a bloomin' onion.

[WyldCard4]

Originally Posted by Memphet'ran

What's happening isn't explicitly stated, but if you read between the lines it's pretty heavily implied that the Vampires are killing off humanity.

If you read the end notes, the bolded part is suggestive...

Edit: also about the question of whether the way humans treated Vampires had any effect on that, there is this, from the preview to the next book set in that universe:

It could be a lie, but it seems in-character.

Hm...

From the sound of it, the vampires were killing off humanity. Also the preview of the next book which I just found online seemed highly suggestive of such a fight.

Originally Posted by mr wednesday

Not since the middle ages it hasn't. Superior technology wins the day.

They kind of need to know the attack is coming, don't they?

Depends on particulars and situations that very from situation to situation. They don't seem to be actual bullet timers (which is a big disadvantage) but they can definitely out react anything that has a human performing the action. Their ability to leap across a parking lot would outrun a lot of explosions (I could be wrong there, they may be faster than I thought). Really it would help to know how the trap is set up.

How does superior strength mean they are hard to trap? It would be pattern recognition that would let one tell if they were walking into a trap or not.

At the very least it cuts off certain kinds of traps. You can't rely on a building or cliff to keep them in an area. They can just smash through most obstacles.
I suppose they could try hiding at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

HSV has enough physical differences that they stand out pretty well.

This brings up an interesting question if they smell differently from humans to a Twampire. Having watched the author's presentation, I would say yes, but I may be wrong.

If so, simply smelling them would be grounds for fleeing an area as a trap, making the whole thing even harder.

A more interesting question is given the vastly different neuroarchitecture between HSV and HSS, will their powers works against them. If not the Twlight vamps lost an advantage they are used to having in most conflicts.

I'm actually not sure. I can't remember Edward ever reading an animal mind. Their powers work on local vampires, humans, werewolves, and dhampires, but all of them are fairly close to human baseline.

I am sure Alice's precognition would not work on them, which weakens one of my usual debate points for Twilight. The minds definitely work in a way that would make them blank spots to her.

Not really, you just need to be smart. Poisons, gases, IEDs, etc etc etc.

They don't breath, so gas is right out. Poison depends on the delivery system. You can't reliably break the skin, poisoning the food relies on being able to set up food you absolutely know they will kill, which is hard for over reasons. Also a not of poison probably wouldn't work, their organs don't do anything, their blood doesn't do anything, and their biology is all around weird.

IEDs and similar are probably the best bet. You'd need to be close range with the bomb (which raises issues of concealment) and/or it would need to be very powerful. Their durability feats are high end, and they can survive significant disadvantages.

Intelligence and planning allow one to overcome incredible disadvantages. Consider how the Fins were able to defeat Soviet tanks, or the actions of insurgents in any of the post WW2 wars. And HSV have those abilities in spades. Plus there are apparently more of them.

Their intelligence is the big x-factor. They might be argued to simply devise ways of hunting and killing Twampires that we couldn't think of.

Actually that's exactly what they were initially used for in the novel. They were originally used to track terrorists, spies, and saboteurs. It just means they need to amp up the firepower applied at the end point.

True.

Not my claim. My point is that the vastly superior intelligence of HSV is better than the superior physical abilities of twilight vamps. As to that question, Brains vs Brawn? When was the last time you ate a steak?

I don't think we can actually draw perfect analogies here. We all function by the same laws of physics and biology in our world. Blampires are written in very hard science fiction, they're going be limited in many ways. Twampires just aren't limited in the same way.

I actually think the Blampires will kill a lot of Twampires. The war will be devastating to the Twampires. Their physical abilities will be inferior to the numbers and intelligence of the Blampires when the Blampires have time and the ability to set traps. I however don't think they'll destroy the entire race. They're too mobile, too self sufficient, and already used to hiding their nature because of the Volturi's rules.

The intelligence gap that this would involve, no. But it is instructive to look at histories examples where there were moderate gaps in the education level between populaces. Now you are talking about gaps orders of magnitude greater.

Yes, they're smart. Probably at least an effective gap as large as humans and wolves. However, the technology is equal (and the physical capabilities mean that the effective power is greater for the Twampires), the Twampires are better educated and experienced as elaborated above.

I do think the war would be a victory for the Blampires by most definitions, but that doesn't actually matter much. The scenario is to kill every single member of the Twilight Vampire race in one year before they start dying out because they can't look at crosses. I don't think they can apply all of their abilities in time to wipe them all out.

Yes, that's rather my point. In those cases the superior advantage was the hardware. And it was the result of education and judiciously applied intelligence, not any particular superior physical ability.

I think the scenario is rather similar to taking 200,000 random human beings, dumping them on an uninhabited planet, and giving them orders to slaughter every wolf in the world (going by population figures not impacted by humans) in one year.

Plenty would die from the situation itself, plenty more would manage to hunt down huge numbers of wolves. But I don't think every single wolf would die, despite our intelligence advantage.

The conflict wasn't between them, it was between them and the selective pressure of the environment. And the "victor" would not be the species, but the genes they carry. And even then, the real point of evolution is that there is no victor this side of heat death.

I think we're arguing terms, not what actually happened. Vampires in Blindsight proved to be more inadequate than humans, and died out or bred into the human population.

Have you read any literary criticism of the series? I was speaking of the extremely heavy classically traditional Mormon overtones in the interactions between the characters. In terms of how the characters dealt with each other, gender roles, societal roles, etc they are essentially Mormon fundamentalists minus polygamy.

I don't see how "fundementalist Mormon" translates to "1830s social interaction" myself.

I highly recommend it, I found it fascinating. It includes a complete breakdown of Scrambler physiology, details on the suspended animation process and the Theseus, HSV details, etc.

I recently read it (had several days of being very busy) and I did really like it. Looking forward to Dumbspeach.

We will of course have to wait for either State of Grace of Dumbspeach (I'm not sure which is the title of the sequel)to come out to see.

I am looking forward to it. Dark author, but excellent writer on a number of levels. The ending that implied the vampires were winning always seemed strange to me, and seeing how it actually happens will be fun. I do have questions about such a scenario.

Though I suppose I shouldn't underestimate the possible influence of mass media to completely cover that up. We do it with other instances of ethnic cleansing routinely enough. Look at how much time the current massacres in Nigeria are getting in the news cycle.

I think we'd just be more scared of the Blindsight creatures. As bad as the Voluri are, they're not the primal terrors the newcomers would be. The Blindsight Vampires are also a far bigger long term threat. Twilight vampires can't survive without humanity to prey on, Blindsight vampires can, in this era.

And I think you are vastly underestimating the impact of superior intelligence on the scenario.

I may indeed.

[just_some_guy]

Let me put it this way:

Homo Sapiens Vampirus scared the shit out of me when I was reading about them. They are the combination of the serial killer, the CEO, and the savant. I can't imagine anything earthly that is more terrifying. They are to humans what humans are to the animals.

Twampires are supernaturally terrifying, true. But they are just humans with superpowers. They are human in mind. Humans who want to eat you, yeah, but they are human characters.

So the twampires might even kill every HSV they encounter, and still lose. The HSV's will simply KNOW, and bring the full force of human civilisation against the twampires, who will never know where the HSV's are, they will never again have a safe place to rest, never again have a easily accessed food supply, and they will lose.

[Memphet'ran]

Originally Posted by WyldCard4

Did anyone else see that we're on Peter Watts's blog now?

http://www.rifters.com/crawl/

Second one down from the top.

Kind of neat.

The Blindsight fanfic I posted here got a comment on that site too. At least I think it's the fanfic he was talking about; I couldn't find any other Blindsight fanfics on Google and he did mention it had some "interesting speculation on vampire reproductive strategies" (might not have been his exact words, I'm quoting from memory). Either Peter Watts periodically lurks on SB (or is a member) or we turn up on his Google searches for Blindsight.

There's some interesting speculation by the author himself on vampire nature in the comments.

Originally Posted by Peter Watts

Speaking of Blampire reproductive strategies (ah shit — now they’ve got me doing it), I notice that no one here has picked up on the teensy fact that the critical gene that cascades into the vampire complex is on the Y-chromosome. Which means either that a) there’s been some translocation of genes between now and the good ol’ days, or b) all prehistoric vampires were male. Which has unfortunate and violent implications for “race relations”, as it were; these guys would have to both eat their prey and mate with them, depending on the mood. (It also answers the question of how mating can occur in the first place if vamps are so territorial that attack each other on sight.)

Some of you may have noticed the appearance of a female vampire in the rough draft of Dumbspeech’s prolog. She’s easy enough to explain (we’ve been building artificial chromosomes for years), but she begs a question that comes up early in the sidequel: why would anyone give these creatures the means to reproduce independently? The facetious answer is, obviously, “Because it’s better than the traditional alternative”.

The real answer is something you’re going to have to wait for.

Personally I hope he doesn't go with that idea. The idea of ancient vampires as an all-male race just seems too hokey, and while I'm no biologist I'm pretty you'd probably need more than one altered development gene to create all the features by which vampires differ from humans; the critical gene might code for the flesh-eating but I think it'd be a lot more plausible for other genes to be involved as well. You also have to wonder how vampire children could have survived at all in such a situation as opposed to getting killed at birth or in early childhood by the humans when they start manifesting all the super-freaky vampire traits, although you could rationalize that as the vamps keeping their mates prisoner while they gestate (oh man there is so much potential nightmare fuel in that if you want to go there ).

I'll admit a bit of ulterior motive in disliking the idea though; it would invalidate some of the speculation in my fanfic.

[StarSpawn]

Originally Posted by just_some_guy

Let me put it this way:

Homo Sapiens Vampirus scared the shit out of me when I was reading about them. They are the combination of the serial killer, the CEO, and the savant. I can't imagine anything earthly that is more terrifying. They are to humans what humans are to the animals.

.

They are scary because they are both alien and believable all at the same time, admittedly the book could have been written better, but the ideas was truly original and well-thought out + the story was good overall and logical in its own way.