honorverse VS tyranid hive fleets

[FBH]

honorverse (IE all of the space described in honor books manticore, haven, ect) VS
hive fleet behemoth

hive fleet kraken

hive fleet leviathan

all three as the empire faced them (Ie one after another) but over a shorter time scale (say 10 years)

[CommissionerJan]

The HV is gonna suffer terrible losses, but they'll make it.
Why? Becasue the 'nids have nothing they could do against impeller wedge missiles tearing them apart.

And any planet that falls to the 'nids is gonna learn what 20,000 130 ton missiles at .99 c do if they hit a planet.

No Eridani Edict or Deneb Accords prohibits kinetic strikes against a planet dull of alien warrior creatures.

[Contemplator]

I would love to see what a pulser does to a 'nid. Explosives denser than uranium accelerated to hypersonic speeds.

[CommissionerJan]

by Contemplator
I would love to see what a pulser does to a 'nid. Explosives denser than uranium accelerated to hypersonic speeds.

I'll have to disappoint you, the HV pulser darts only move at about 2000 m/s, at least the hand-held variants. The bigger, pinnace mounted ones are around twice that, while the old PD autocannons were between 30 and 50 km/s.


The thing you mentioned is a 5thI grav gun . . .

Sorry for being a smartass

[Contemplator]

I wonder which 'nid unit would be the equal of a man in powerarmor

[CommissionerJan]

No single 'nid can stand up to a HV marine with a tribarrel, unless you count biotitans, assault spawn and suchlike as 'single 'nid'.
Those big ones have a chance, but they are easy targets for orbital strikes and airstrikes.

I guess the only weapon the 'normal' 'nids have that might be able to damage/penetrate power armour is a Venom cannon, and they don't have many of those, so the few they have will be primary targets.

If it gets into HtH, the marines are in trouble, especially against Hormagaunts and 'stealers.

But the Tyranids still don't have a chance, the HV is far too superior in space combat.

[Tatterdemalion]

Hmm... what FTL technology does the HV have and would the Shadow In The Warp affect it?

That aside, a bare minimum Tyranid force (two sqauds of Gaunts and one sqaud of Warriors) has one unit capable of weilding a venom cannon (Unless the hive mind decides to employ some creative mutation of course... then you can concievably cram about 5 in, but such a thing would be uncommon and two of the cannons would be pretty impractical.)

In addition to that remember the genestealer cults. Not only can these guys rip tanks apart but they can infiltrate other cultures and are fully capable of initiating planetwide insurrection.

[ggs]

Originally posted by Tatterdemalion
Hmm... what FTL technology does the HV have and would the Shadow In The Warp affect it?
Hyperspace. A different dimension were the gravitational constant is ridiculously high. High enough that gravity waves can force which have enough energy to total vaporise a multi million ton ship. The vaporiseation occurs at the sub-atomic level, due to the nature of what powerful gravity waves do to matter. That is only unbound quarks are left when a ship hits a hyperwave (gravity wave in hyperspace). To survive in hyperspace, they pull a chunk of realspace into hyperspace (their ship & stuff around it). Sidewalls & wedges are standing gravity waves with quadruple butt loads of energy in them. A pincer, has enough energy in its wedge to totally vaporise a multi million ton starship. So the wedge of the said starship would be vastly more powerful. If it is matter, and comes in contect with the wedge, you get strange matter. Which is quark plasma

No, the "Shadow In The Warp" wouldnt effect it.

That aside, a bare minimum Tyranid force (two sqauds of Gaunts and one sqaud of Warriors) has one unit capable of weilding a venom cannon (Unless the hive mind decides to employ some creative mutation of course... then you can concievably cram about 5 in, but such a thing would be uncommon and two of the cannons would be pretty impractical.)
There is no such thing as a boarding action in Honorverse, that what happens when you wrap gravity waves around you ship as defence. So the only time this would come into effect is when the 'nids landed. And then the honorverse people are quite willing to use kinetic strikes. And planet busting with HV tech is trivial.

In addition to that remember the genestealer cults. Not only can these guys rip tanks apart but they can infiltrate other cultures and are fully capable of initiating planetwide insurrection.
They have to get on land first. The Matties have thousands of ships, and have less than a dozen systems to protect.

[Dahak]

Originally posted by ggs

Hyperspace. A different dimension were the gravitational constant is ridiculously high. High enough that gravity waves can force which have enough energy to total vaporise a multi million ton ship. The vaporiseation occurs at the sub-atomic level, due to the nature of what powerful gravity waves do to matter. That is only unbound quarks are left when a ship hits a hyperwave (gravity wave in hyperspace). To survive in hyperspace, they pull a chunk of realspace into hyperspace (their ship & stuff around it). Sidewalls & wedges are standing gravity waves with quadruple butt loads of energy in them. A pincer, has enough energy in its wedge to totally vaporise a multi million ton starship. So the wedge of the said starship would be vastly more powerful. If it is matter, and comes in contect with the wedge, you get strange matter. Which is quark plasma
When a weaker Wegde comes in contact with a stronger one the ship gets killed because its Impeller rings completely blow.
If you get with a strong weak too near to a weaker wedge, the weaker ship's Impeller nodes simply burn out.

The pinnace you're talking about destryoed the Tepes because it was made to activate its Impeller *inside* the Tepes ship bay.
Which is a *bad* thing to happen when a Wedge cuts through your whole ship.
And when matter hits the wedge it just gets smeared across the Wedge, torn apart by gravitational forces. An example would be the Impeller missile cutting Honor's shuttle in two on Grayson.
I don't know where you get that whole quark idea. It's not in the books, that's for sure.

[SWPIGWANG]

So ram them until they give up really works in HV....

[Contemplator]

Some stuff about the wedge. When reading please remember that energy range in the honorverse is in excess of 400,000km. Also the white dot in the picture is a 3.2 kilometer SD.

Wedge geometry
Sidewalls & the Wedge. Between them, these constitute the third line of defense, although they are the primary passive defense. Sidewalls will resist burn-through by current generation laser heads at anything much above 20,000-30,000 km, which is why the critical engagement ranges are so short. The impeller wedge itself will resist penetration by any currently known weapon. Because of this, point defense ignores any incoming weapon which tracking predicts will be unable to achieve an effective firing angle against the sidewall from within 30,000 km. One thing you must bear in mind is that the geometry of the wedge/sidewall/warship equation actually makes this a relatively tiny target. Consider: an SD's impeller wedge is 300 km across, but the ship herself has a maximum beam of less than a kilometer. She therefore represents a very small (relatively speaking) aiming point at the middle of a very wide roof and floor of impenetrable "armor." The sidewall is normally generated at a range of less than 10,000 meters from the actual ship, which means that, in the case of our SD from the example above, the sidewall will be 143 kilometers inside the outer "edges" of the wedge. There is thus a very considerable "tunnel" effect, which requires an attacker (enemy warship or missile) to achieve an almost perfect firing angle before it can even engage the sidewall, much less the ship.

Against enemy warships, this means, in effect, that no one can shoot you (broadside to broadside, at any rate) with energy weapons unless you can shoot back at him. It also means that it is very difficult for missiles to attain a firing angle in the first place, which is why they tend to be fired in such large numbers.

The throat of the wedge for an SD is about 190 kilometers deep; the after aspect's opening is only about 40 kilometers deep. This is why the throat is the most vulnerable aspect, and why missiles are usually programmed to try to get around their targets in order to achieve a down-the-throat shot. Usually, however, the target of the missile attack will turn to present its heavier broadside point defense to the enemy fleet in order to engage missiles as they try to attain that sort of firing position. In addition, of course, an entire task force will be organized into one or more missile defense nets whose units protect one another.

In addition, a ship can shift position somewhat within the area of its wedge. One can predict exactly where a ship will be within the volume of its wedge if it is seeking to attain the maximum possible acceleration (assuming that one has solid, reliable numbers on its inertial compensator's performance envelope), but at lower accelerations, ships can move "off center" within their wedges.

"Rolling ship" is thus a maneuver which is intended to turn a very narrow zone of vulnerability away from threat. It is a complete defense against direct energy fire, and a major defense against missiles not simply because it intercepts their direct fire but because it prevents the missiles' sensors from attaining hard locks on the ships within the wedges. At the relative velocities resulting from most missile fire control solutions, the laser head is always going to have a snap shot, with very little time to compute and adjust firing angles, as it crosses the sidewall/throat/kilt of a wedge, and if it doesn't know exactly where to find its target in the instant that the shot is available, it will miss.

Note that most of the above applies to single-ship duels or engagements with relatively low numbers of ships and relatively unencumbered maneuverability on either side. In formal wall-of-battle engagements, the defensive fleet's situation is both less flexible and less vulnerable. Because contact between wedges is lethal, ships must maintain a safe separation (usually the width of the widest wedge involved) from one another. A really well drilled fleet, however, with a CO who's willing to (a) trust his people's abilities and (b) take a few risks, can cut that separation in half, which has two major effects in defending against an opponent's missile fire. (1) The relative positions of the units in a vertically-stacked wall which has turned "up on its side" relative to the enemy mean that those ships at the center of the wall are almost entirely protected from any missiles more than a couple of hundred kilometers from them by the interposed wedges/sidewalls/hulls of the ships "above" and "below" them; and (2) simply turning the wall's units on its side builds a "road block" of wedges which the missiles must penetrate before they can engage at all. If a wall of SDs stacked four high with an impeller-roof-to--floor separation of 500 kilometers, a broadside separation of 150 kilometers and an ahead-and-astern separation of 200 kilometers turns up on its side, any missile which wants to attack will have to achieve a down-the-throat/up-the-kilt attack position or thread its way through a suddenly much constricted series of "holes in the wall" to get at the sidewalls. The traditional formation for a wall which has rolled ship is for the ships of the wall to do so at slightly offset angles. This increases the number of firing aspects from which missiles could expect to hit something, but it also makes the broadside point defense capability of ships in other tiers of the wall available to protect the exposed units at its "top" and "bottom." In addition, light screening units hidden on the far side of the wall from the enemy but taking missile intercept data from ships in the wall and/or recon drones deployed to see around the wall can also supply indirect defensive fire (counter-missiles) from a position in which they are relatively invisible (and so invulnerable to) the seekers of incoming missiles.


**
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/wedge.gif
**


Note: That white dot-like line in the center represents a superdreadnaught, bow (and acceleration vector) toward the left.
Image by Russ Isler.

**Damn thing won't link.

[Tatterdemalion]

Yeah, your right Tyranids are screwed. Best bet for them would be to charge with all their scout vessels and hope enough Genestalers, if any, land to start a good infestation.

[ggs]

Originally posted by Dahak

When a weaker Wegde comes in contact with a stronger one the ship gets killed because its Impeller rings completely blow.
If you get with a strong weak too near to a weaker wedge, the weaker ship's Impeller nodes simply burn out.

The pinnace you're talking about destryoed the Tepes because it was made to activate its Impeller *inside* the Tepes ship bay.
Which is a *bad* thing to happen when a Wedge cuts through your whole ship.
And when matter hits the wedge it just gets smeared across the Wedge, torn apart by gravitational forces. An example would be the Impeller missile cutting Honor's shuttle in two on Grayson.
I don't know where you get that whole quark idea. It's not in the books, that's for sure.
A Gravitational wave is traveling distortion in spacetime. When a gravity wave intersects with matter, inside that matter the distance between atoms increases, if the gravtaitional wave is large enough the resulting distortion is enough to move the sub-atomic components apart (protons, neutrons etc). This act of increase the distance between two points generates a force, which does work.

If you wrench appart a molecule, you will break bonds betwen atoms(electro static). If you wrench appart a atom (nuclear fussion), the bonds (strong nuclear force) will be broken. Then the electro static repulsion between protons will kick in, and futhure disperse the stuff.

However if you have sufficiently powerful gravity wave it can break the bonds(strong nuclear force) between quarks. It is generally believed that quarks -- the elementary particles that combine to form hadrons such as protons and neutrons -- are liberated when matter is compressed to very high densities
Neutron star possesses surface gravitational field about 300,000 times that of Earth.
Whats the strenght of the wedge again?

IIRC The wedge does : 50,000km/s/s = ~5 102 000 gees
So the gravitaional force of a wedge is much strong (by a factor of 17) than the surface of a neutron star.

I dont thing matter is going to behave as normal in those extreme conditions.

Regradless, the object is torn appart at the sub-atomic level (protons, neutrons). If a hyperwave hit a ship, then they will get turned to their consituent quarks

[Dahak]

Originally posted by ggs

A Gravitational wave is traveling distortion in spacetime. When a gravity wave intersects with matter, inside that matter the distance between atoms increases, if the gravtaitional wave is large enough the resulting distortion is enough to move the sub-atomic components apart (protons, neutrons etc). This act of increase the distance between two points generates a force, which does work.

If you wrench appart a molecule, you will break bonds betwen atoms(electro static). If you wrench appart a atom (nuclear fussion), the bonds (strong nuclear force) will be broken. Then the electro static repulsion between protons will kick in, and futhure disperse the stuff.

However if you have sufficiently powerful gravity wave it can break the bonds(strong nuclear force) between quarks.

Whats the strenght of the wedge again?

IIRC The wedge does : 50,000km/s/s = ~5 102 000 gees
So the gravitaional force of a wedge is much strong (by a factor of 17) than the surface of a neutron star.

I dont thing matter is going to behave as normal in those extreme conditions.

Regradless, the object is torn appart at the sub-atomic level (protons, neutrons). If a hyperwave hit a ship, then they will get turned to their consituent quarks
An Impeller Wedge has an force of "several hundred thousand g", not millions.
When the pinnace was torn apart by a Wedge, it was just that: torn apart, cut in half. No plasma, no explosion, no vaping, just cut through like a hot knife through butter.

[ggs]

Originally posted by Dahak

An Impeller Wedge has an force of "several hundred thousand g", not millions.

Ok, so I was off by a lot.

However that force is still enough to rip apart an object at the atomic level.

When the pinnace was torn apart by a Wedge, it was just that: torn apart, cut in half. No plasma, no explosion, no vaping, just cut through like a hot knife through butter.

Just the resulting energy from the cross-sectional being(E=m*c^2) 'vaped' would a double butt load of energy.

I was refering to when they raise a wedge(a pinnace version) inside a ship. The description states that it(the ship) was vaperised, as it should considering the area the wedge would intersect would effectively be converted to enegy.

Come to think of it having a wedge raised inside an object is worse than colliding with a wedge.

Hitting a wedge will cause a volent reaction from the object in question. It will at the very least be turned to atomic vapour (singular atoms). And plasma is a type of charged matter, so duh it deosnt fit that.

Also a ship would not survive being hit by that type of thing. Go take a look at what a 16" cannon would do if it hit your hand.

[CommissionerJan]

by ggs
Hitting a wedge will cause a volent reaction from the object in question. It will at the very least be turned to atomic vapour (singular atoms). And plasma is a type of charged matter, so duh it deosnt fit that.

Tepes was said to blown to splinters, not single atoms. It wasn't physically hit by the pinnace's wedge, the wedgejust appeared around Tepes, and the gravitational shear that suddenly affected the ship tore it apart.

[ggs]

Originally posted by CommissionerJan


Tepes was said to blown to splinters, not single atoms. It wasn't physically hit by the pinnace's wedge, the wedgejust appeared around Tepes, and the gravitational shear that suddenly affected the ship tore it apart.
Gravtiational shear of that magnatude isnt going to leave very much around. Matter exposed to the wedge is going to be distergrated, it just a question of how much of the ship is exposed to the wedge.

The gravitational shear is going to violently destroy what ever it comes in contect with. The question is will an object that hit the wedge survive long enough to be thrown clear of the wedge?

[Dahak]

Originally posted by ggs

Gravtiational shear of that magnatude isnt going to leave very much around. Matter exposed to the wedge is going to be distergrated, it just a question of how much of the ship is exposed to the wedge.

The gravitational shear is going to violently destroy what ever it comes in contect with. The question is will an object that hit the wedge survive long enough to be thrown clear of the wedge?
Quote fro "In Enemy Hands", just after the pinnace activated its Wedge in the boat bay.
"MY God."
Shannon Foraker's hushed whisper seemed to echo and re-echo aross Count Tilly's flag deck as PNS Tepes blew apart.
No, Lester Tourville thought shakenly. No, she didn't blow apart; she simply came apart. She...disintegrated.
And that, he realized, was precisely the right word. the battlecruiser's fusion plants blew as their mag bottles failed, spewing white-hot fury amid the wreckage, but it didn't really matter. Nothing could have survived that dreadful, wrenching blow from inside her hull. All the fusion plants did was vaporize a few score tons of wreckage..."

There was clearly wreckage left.

[ggs]

Originally posted by Dahak

Quote fro "In Enemy Hands", just after the pinnace activated its Wedge in the boat bay.
"MY God."
Shannon Foraker's hushed whisper seemed to echo and re-echo aross Count Tilly's flag deck as PNS Tepes blew apart.
No, Lester Tourville thought shakenly. No, she didn't blow apart; she simply came apart. She...disintegrated.
And that, he realized, was precisely the right word. the battlecruiser's fusion plants blew as their mag bottles failed, spewing white-hot fury amid the wreckage, but it didn't really matter. Nothing could have survived that dreadful, wrenching blow from inside her hull. All the fusion plants did was vaporize a few score tons of wreckage..."

There was clearly wreckage left.
Thanks for that, does help clear it up. The problems of having your books packed for moving

The pinnace wedge wouldnt intersect that much of the ship, but of what it did intersect it would disintegrate.

Also wasnt the Tepes a multi-million ton ship? So having a less than 50 tons of ship 'left' to be scorched by the fusion plants blowing up, does say somthing about the effect of a wedge being raised in the ship.

Sitn the reactors a fair distance from the hanger bays anyway?

[Dahak]

Originally posted by ggs

Thanks for that, does help clear it up. The problems of having your books packed for moving

The pinnace wedge wouldnt intersect that much of the ship, but of what it did intersect it would disintegrate.

Also wasnt the Tepes a multi-million ton ship? So having a less than 50 tons of ship 'left' to be scorched by the fusion plants blowing up, does say somthing about the effect of a wedge being raised in the ship.

Sitn the reactors a fair distance from the hanger bays anyway?
All the fusion plants did was vape some tons of the wreckage. There are no numbers given.
And in that qoute you can clearly see that the ship was completely wrecked, not vaped.

[Contemplator]

There are no numbers given.

Yes there were.

All the fusion plants did was vaporize a few score tons of wreckage..."

few generally denotes 3-5
score denotes 20
so a 3-5 20s of tons means 60-100 tons.

[Earl of Bronze]

Something funny came to me a few hours ago. The Tyranids are going to have more trouble finding inhabited worlds in the HV due to it being thousands of times less populated than 40k. But it occured to me that to the Hive mind the fact that their is one and only one psi race in the HV is going to be a like a magnet drawing them there. From where they can find the rest of human space. Of course this means that the Nids will most likely be called Manticores in the HV.

But the funny part is why they are going, because they "Need to eat the Treecats!" This of course is shown as a commercial with a Hive Tyrant in a Dunking Dounut's uniform!

[Contemplator]

Like a Tyranid could catch a Treecat.

And even if they caught one it would be quite a handfull. And if a 'nid squad got caught by a clan...

[ggs]

Originally posted by Contemplator

few generally denotes 3-5
score denotes 20
so a 3-5 20s of tons means 60-100 tons.
Oops, I put it a score as 10, silly me.

But only have 60-100 tons of wreakage to be damage by a fusion reactor blowing up, on a 3.2 Km long ship which mass a a few million tons, implies that most of the ship was vaporised.

And even if they caught one it would be quite a handfull. And if a 'nid squad got caught by a clan...
LOL,
The 'nids would get slaughtered, that just no fair. I wonder is the 'cats can use HV weapons?

[HappyTarget]

I wonder is the 'cats can use HV weapons

I see no reason why not other than most are to big for them to use effectively. They do have hands afterall, so give em a light pulser or down scale and modify a power armor suit so they can carry heavy weapons and voilla, what you get is a really nasty new troop for the Manticoran Marines!

The main reason this didn't happen is that most people, even most people on Manticore and Sphinx didn't realize just how intelligent treecats are, so now in a post AOV Honorverse, things like this are quit possible, perhaps even a miniaturized starship build for treecats to use? But I digress from the topic.

How exactly does the genstealer work? I ask because since Sphinx is gonna be a prime target, I wonder if a treecat could sense that something was not right with certain individuals like they did with that assassin trying to take out IIRC then Princess Elizabeth at the Sphinx Forrestry Service building?