KMS Graf Spee sees the light of day

[Douglas Nicol]

Or a part of it at least.

From

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3489532.stm

Divers recover piece of Graf Spee

A team of divers has recovered a key piece of the German World War II battleship Graf Spee from the mouth of the River Plate in Uruguay.
Salvage experts managed to re-float the ship's range-finding equipment, which weighs 27 metric tons.

It is the first significant part of the ship to be recovered in the operation after several failed attempts.

The ship was sunk more than 60 years ago by its captain to keep it from falling into enemy hands.

The salvage team have positioned a floating crane 7 km (4 miles) out to sea from Montevideo.
The first attempt to raise the equipment - known as a telemeter - failed earlier in the day when the supporting cables snapped and the piece crashed back into the water.

But the team managed to overcome tricky currents and winds to raise it.

"I am looking at the range finder and it is just fabulous," project spokesman Alfredo Etchegaray told Reuters news agency.

Epic battle

The Graf Spee was once a symbol of German naval might. In the early days of World War II it roamed the South Atlantic, sinking as many as nine allied merchant ships.

But during the Battle of the River Plate it received several direct hits and took refuge in Montevideo harbour.

Uruguay, under diplomatic pressure from Britain, ordered the Graf Spee out to sea. And there she was scuttled by her captain, Hans Langsdorff.


Captain Langsdorff committed suicide in a Buenos Aires naval camp three days later.

The ship now lies in waters no deeper than 11 metres.

The project is being financed by private investors from the US and Europe, and has the backing of the Uruguayan Government.

Once restored, the vessel is eventually expected to become a tourist attraction in Montevideo.

[Lord Scotter of London]

What all of it? That would be cool.

I did see a photo of it after it had been scuttled but before it sank and it it did look a bit messy.

[BriDog]

Awsome!

I didn't know anyone was trying to recover her.

[Eleres]

Holy shit, they're actually trying to raise it? Won't that be like the only super battleship in the world after they do that?

[CommissionerJan]

Originally Posted by Eleres

Holy shit, they're actually trying to raise it? Won't that be like the only super battleship in the world after they do that?

Apart from the fact that it's a cruiser and that the US has something like 2 or 3 battleships (and the UK probably another pair) turned to museums, yes

[Seth]

Originally Posted by CommissionerJan

Apart from the fact that it's a cruiser and that the US has something like 2 or 3 battleships (and the UK probably another pair) turned to museums, yes

The US has eight battleships, six as museums, one as a kinda musuem, which is on inactive reserve with the last battleship, those two being the Iowa and the Wisconsin.

[Erinyes]

Originally Posted by Eleres

Holy shit, they're actually trying to raise it? Won't that be like the only super battleship in the world after they do that?

Um, it's merely a pocket battleship.

It's also one of history's little ironies. The British only had 3 smaller ships in the area (I for get if it was 2 crusiers and 1 destroyer, or the 2 destroyers and 1 cruiser). They tricked the Graf Spee into thinking there were more and larger ships by sending false radio messages. Had the Graf Spee tried, it could have cut through all three British ships.

[Big Steve]

Originally Posted by Erinyes

Um, it's merely a pocket battleship.

It's also one of history's little ironies. The British only had 3 smaller ships in the area (I for get if it was 2 crusiers and 1 destroyer, or the 2 destroyers and 1 cruiser). They tricked the Graf Spee into thinking there were more and larger ships by sending false radio messages. Had the Graf Spee tried, it could have cut through all three British ships.

IIRC, Graf Spee made an error in her attack on the British ships. You see, she thought they consisted of one CL and two DD, when in fact the British force was one CA and two CL. So she took more damage than expected.

[Erinyes]

Originally Posted by Big Steve

IIRC, Graf Spee made an error in her attack on the British ships. You see, she thought they consisted of one CL and two DD, when in fact the British force was one CA and two CL. So she took more damage than expected.

Know what, I think you're right. Still, though, the Graf Spee could've at the very least forced all three ships to withdraw, if not outright destroy them.

[Senmut]

Sounds really cool. If anyone's interested, here's some more on the ship.


http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmari...perations.html

[Bossman]

Ain't that something? I heard of this one or two weeks ago and had one of those 'Yeah, right.' moments. I got the impression that it was being salvaged for scrap like the Tirpitz, which would have been a shame as there are few pre war warships preserved. As for restoration, that is a lot of work. Any word on how it is going with that sub off Denmark?

[dacis2]

The thing is that the Graf Spee went to port to repair damage, its optical range finding system was damaged among with other miscel other external damage, and it was low on ammo.

Unfortunately, it put into a neutral port, and secured an extension to how long it could stay. Also, the British, who were bringing in carriers and other heavy forces, forced the Graf Spee to delay its exit because of some convention or other that you have to wait x no. of hours after a merchant ship leaves before you can leave or something. By then, the brit fleet was already waiting. Seeing no chance of escape, the captain scuttled and later shot himself

[DarkReaper]

Bastards, didn't they learn to honour the dead instead of building a fricking amusement park out of it.

[Hamblin]

Of the three ships chasing her, only Exeter's 8 inch guns could actually do any damage, and subsequently, she recieved the most damage from the battle. The Ajax and the New Zealand Cruiser Achilles, with their 6 inch guns, were insufficient to seriously injure Graf Spee. The only nearby reinforcement was HMS Cumberland, a Heavy Cruiser, at the Falkland Islands.

According to Stephen Roskill:

A good deal of uncertainty still surrounds the question of how much damage the Graf Spee had actually sustained upon entering harbour. We did not believe that the cruisers' gunfire could have injured her appreciably; but the Germans told the Uruguayan authorities that she recieved some 70 hits, and they sort and recieved permission to extend her stay in port for 72 hours beyond the one day permitted by International Law in order to effect repairs.

[Lord Furioso]

Originally Posted by dacis2

The thing is that the Graf Spee went to port to repair damage, its optical range finding system was damaged among with other miscel other external damage, and it was low on ammo.

Unfortunately, it put into a neutral port, and secured an extension to how long it could stay. Also, the British, who were bringing in carriers and other heavy forces, forced the Graf Spee to delay its exit because of some convention or other that you have to wait x no. of hours after a merchant ship leaves before you can leave or something. By then, the brit fleet was already waiting. Seeing no chance of escape, the captain scuttled and later shot himself

I was under the Impression that the British tricked Graf Spee into thinking HMS Repulse and HMS Ark Royal were waiting when infact they wouldnt be around for a few more days.

[Bossman]

Originally Posted by DarkReaper

Bastards, didn't they learn to honour the dead instead of building a fricking amusement park out of it.

As far as I know no one went down with the ship so it is not considered a war cemetary.

[Bester]

All crew were offloaded before sailing. The captain and a few men took her out and sunk her, then hoped on a lifeboat back to shore.

[Douglas Nicol]

Originally Posted by CommissionerJan

Apart from the fact that it's a cruiser and that the US has something like 2 or 3 battleships (and the UK probably another pair) turned to museums, yes

As far as I know, the only World War II era vessel that has been preserved is HMS Belfast on the Thames. Somewhere on the THames is also an old Flower class Corvette which has been turned into a night club or pub. Most of the preserved vessels in the UK are older.

[Vendetta]

Originally Posted by Douglas Nicol

As far as I know, the only World War II era vessel that has been preserved is HMS Belfast on the Thames. Somewhere on the THames is also an old Flower class Corvette which has been turned into a night club or pub. Most of the preserved vessels in the UK are older.

There's a U-Boat in Birkenhead and a landing craft. Some Anti-Aircraft weapons from WW2. Torpedo's too etc.

We dont seem to keep stuff like that. I suppose if we did, Britain would be full of hardware from all the wars weve been in

Still quite a few bomb sites in Manchester that have never been cleared.

[Douglas Nicol]

Originally Posted by Vendetta

There's a U-Boat in Birkenhead and a landing craft. Some Anti-Aircraft weapons from WW2. Torpedo's too etc.

We dont seem to keep stuff like that. I suppose if we did, Britain would be full of hardware from all the wars weve been in

Still quite a few bomb sites in Manchester that have never been cleared.

There's a museum in Irvine in Scotland, the Scottish Maritime Museum, like the Imperial War Museum, its not a place that's confined to one location, its got bits in Dumbarton etc.

One of the curators there said that she didn't want military related craft because she didn't approve of the military.

What was there at the time was a small boat in RAF colours for use at a seaplane base and one of those floating emergency stations that used to be moored in the middle of the ocean. I got the impression she couldn't wait to get rid of them...typical.

There might be quite a few smaller vessels like the Flower class Corvette, but I think HMS Belfast is the only capital class vessel we have preserved.

[Hamblin]

From British Warships & Auxiliaries 2002/2003 by Mike Critchley:

At the end of the line...

Readers may well find other warships afloat which are not mentioned in this book. The majority have fulfilled a long and useful life and are now relegated to non-seagoing duties. The following list gives details of their current duties:

Pennant No/Ship/Remarks

• None/Britannia/Ex Royal Yacht at Leith. Open to the public.
• A134/Rame Head/Escort Maintenance Vessel - Royal Marines Training Ship in Fareham Creek (Portsmouth)
• C35/Belfast/World War II Cruiser Museum ship - Pool of London. Open to the public daily. Tel: 020 7940 6300
• D23/Bristol/Type 82 Destroyer - Sea Cadet Training Ship at Portsmouth.
• D73/Cavalier
  S17/Ocelot
  World War II Destroyer & Oberon class Submarine. Museum ships at Chatham. Partially open to the public. Tel: 01634 823800
• F126/Plymouth/
  S21/Onyx/Type 12 Frigate & Oberon class Submarine. Museum ships at Birkenhead, Wirral. Open to the public daily. Tel: 0151 650 1573.
• M1115/Bronington/Ton class Minesweeper at Manchester. Limited Opening to the Public. Tel 0161 877 7778.
• S67/Alliance/Submarine - Museum Ship at Gosport. Open to the public daily. Tel: 023 92 511349.
• M1151/Iveston/(Thurrock)
  M1154/Kellington/(Stockton upon Tees)
  Static Sea Cadet Training Vessels

At the time of publishing (December 2001) the following ships were laid up in long term storage or awaiting sale.

Portsmouth
Intrepid
Boxer
Brave
Coventry
London
Scylla
Cromer

Plymouth
Courageous
Conqueror
Valiant
Warspite

Rosyth
Churchill
Dreadnought
Revenge
Swiftsure
Resolution
Renown
Repulse

I can tell you now that Scylla will be sunk as an artificial coral reef and that Courageous has been turned into a museum in Plymouth. Er, and before anyone says anything: any ship you see there with a Battleship name is actually a submarine (Dreadnought, Warspite, et al). The United States is the only nation to have preserved any Dreadnought Battleships as museums, and is the only nation to have two (Iowa and Wisconsin) preserved in what they call "Maintenance Category B", that is, the highest level of maintenance that a ship in OCIR, or Out-of-Commission-In-Reserve, status, can recieve. "Ships selected for this category are the most urgently needed to augment the Active Fleet in an emergency". Japan is the only nation to have a pre-Dreadnought Battleship preserved; the Mikasa.

If anyone wants a list of United States naval vessels preserved as museums, those vessels about which attempts are being made to preserve as vessels, and vessels which are no longer preserved (there are too many for me to type out here), please visit this page.

[SilentWasteland]

U-505 is available for touring in Chicago. Been through it a couple times, its part of a display on U-boats and the Museum for Science and Industry.

[Senmut]

Originally Posted by Hamblin

Japan is the only nation to have a pre-Dreadnought Battleship preserved; the Mikasa.

Doesn't Russia still preserve the Battleship Potempkin in St. Petersburg? It was commissioned a few years before the H.M.S. Dreadnought, since it took place in the abortive revolution of 1905.

Also, the article didn't make it clear, are they planning on actually making her seaworty again? That sure seems like one hell of an effort. Under international maritime law, all sunken warships remain the property of their respective nations in perpituity, so technically Germany still owns her. Won't that complicate things a bit?

[Vendetta]

Originally Posted by Senmut

Doesn't Russia still preserve the Battleship Potempkin in St. Petersburg? It was commissioned a few years before the H.M.S. Dreadnought, since it took place in the abortive revolution of 1905.

Also, the article didn't make it clear, are they planning on actually making her seaworty again? That sure seems like one hell of an effort. Under international maritime law, all sunken warships remain the property of their respective nations in perpituity, so technically Germany still owns her. Won't that complicate things a bit?

Does that only apply to Warships?

[Bossman]

Originally Posted by Senmut

Also, the article didn't make it clear, are they planning on actually making her seaworty again? That sure seems like one hell of an effort. Under international maritime law, all sunken warships remain the property of their respective nations in perpituity, so technically Germany still owns her. Won't that complicate things a bit?

Seaworty would be cool/insane/troublesome. I have heard from one source, whose validity I can not evaluate, that she was been cut up for scrap down to the waterline. That would go against them salvaging a rangefinder now as such equipment genearlly is mounted fairly high, behind the gun turrets and/or on top of the bridge. I seem to recall there are different issues on ownership and salvage pay depending on if a civilian or private ship was abandoned or not. From recent happenings around here I can say that a downed aircraft is property of the airforce/government untill they say otherwise. I would assume the same goes for warships. The Graf Spee articles mentioned germans being involved in the effort. Tecnicallly, the government that commissioned the GS is no longer around so it may be property of the Uruguayan government, as it is in Uruguayan waters but that is pure speculation on my part.


OOOh!!new pics! new pics!


And on the issue of ownership:

"In 1946, Uruguay extended their territorial waters out to 12 miles, later 200 miles, and Germany relinquished ownership of all wrecks inside territorial waters as part of the surrender agreement, so today the wreck is the property of the Government of Uruguay."
http://www.bobhenneman.info/bhbrp.htm