This has probably been done a zillion times...

Vanquisher221 · Sep 7th 2004, 9:52pm

...but it must've been before I got here. Anyway, a friend and I were having a discussion and I was just wondering.

At some point the IoM decides to invade the galaxy far far away at the height of the Galactic Empire's power. For the purposes of the debate assume that anyone else in the galaxy won't bother the Imperium while their armies are away. How would they do:

1) in space
2) in planetary assaults

For an added twist, how would the IoM do pre-heresy?

Xort · Sep 7th 2004, 10:11pm

On the ground the IoM wins, just beats the hell out of the GE.

In space, the IoM inflicts massive damage on the GE but in the end can't beat them.

**E1701** · Sep 7th 2004, 10:14pm

Which Galactic Empire are we talking about?

PainRack · Sep 7th 2004, 10:19pm

Name how the IOM gets to the Empire first.

The problem with any IOM invasion of the Empire always boils down to one thing. The Empire can inflict more damage to the IOM, faster than the IOM can inflict damage to the Empire.

Hyperdrive gives the Empire superior mobility, the use of super-weapons means that by the time the IOM captures or destroy two planets, the Empire could had wiped out entire regions.

senor_kickass · Sep 8th 2004, 2:19pm

Are you forgetting that the standard IOM cruiser is 3km long and has more than enough firepower to waste an ISD?

Vizzi · Sep 8th 2004, 2:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by senor_kickass

Are you forgetting that the standard IOM cruiser is 3km long and has more than enough firepower to waste an ISD?

Long it is firepower it is not.

hrogge · Sep 8th 2004, 2:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by senor_kickass

Are you forgetting that the standard IOM cruiser is 3km long and has more than enough firepower to waste an ISD?

In this case you should listen to Yoda: "Size matters not."

SW ships simply have more firepower per volume... combined with the advantages of instant communication and reliable FTL engines they can beat the IoM in space.

Captain Orsai · Sep 8th 2004, 2:42pm

Given that (as per the OP), nobody's bothering the Imperium, it can bring its massive strategic reserves to bear, as they won't be needed against its typical foes.

hrogge · Sep 8th 2004, 2:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Orsai

Given that (as per the OP), nobody's bothering the Imperium, it can bring its massive strategic reserves to bear, as they won't be needed against its typical foes.

Which doesn't really help them a lot... it just make the war a little bit longer.

Captain Orsai · Sep 8th 2004, 2:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrogge

Which doesn't really help them a lot... it just make the war a little bit longer.

Those reserves consist of (at least) ten thousand ships, including four hundred battleships and "thousands" of heavy battlecruisers.

And besides, its not like an ISD's heavy guns can hit an IoM battleship strafing it at upwards of .75-cee (the captain who gave tht number explicitly stated that was his lowest estimate for it).

Grand_Admiral · Sep 8th 2004, 3:03pm

Couple things here:

1. How many ships does the IoM have in all, including reserves?

2. What era Empire?

3. What are the firepower calcs for an IoM ship?

Some other things:

1. An ISD won't be by itself, so the likely hood of just one ISD trying to hit an IoM ship is minimal.

2. The Empire has at least 10 millions ships to fight, note that those are very conservative. Mid ranges are 300 million ships, and the way high end are 1+ billion.

Captain Orsai · Sep 8th 2004, 3:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grand_Admiral

Couple things here:

1. How many ships does the IoM have in all, including reserves?

Dunno. Likely a large amount, since the ones lost in Eye of Terror (300+ Retribution-class BBs and most of their escorting ships) weren't considered crippling losses.

Quote:

3. What are the firepower calcs for an IoM ship?

High gigaton to low teraton range, with some weapons reaching into the petaton-range (Nova cannon shells' KE).

hrogge · Sep 8th 2004, 3:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Orsai

Those reserves consist of (at least) ten thousand ships, including four hundred battleships and "thousands" of heavy battlecruisers.

Not enough for the GE... even to local sector fleets have a total minimum of 25000 ISDs... we don't even know how many millions of smaller ships ( and a lot of larger ones, Vaders SSD is not a very uncommon ship for the GE ).

Quote:

And besides, its not like an ISD's heavy guns can hit an IoM battleship strafing it at upwards of .75-cee (the captain who gave tht number explicitly stated that was his lowest estimate for it).

Speed doesn't matter in space, it's acceleration what's important... and the acceleration of SW ships is pretty good.

Captain Orsai · Sep 8th 2004, 3:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrogge

Not enough for the GE... even to local sector fleets have a total minimum of 25000 ISDs... we don't even know how many millions of smaller ships ( and a lot of larger ones, Vaders SSD is not a very uncommon ship for the GE ).

The thing is, those were the forces tht two commanders could pull together for a quiet (relatively speaking) incursion into the Eye that they didn't want the High Lords to know about. Now, moving large chunks of the fleet about isn't conductive to that goal, is it?

Quote:

Speed doesn't matter in space, it's acceleration what's important... and the acceleration of SW ships is pretty good.

Not much compared to mere fighters in 40K, since Lightnings (converted air-breathing fighters, basically) can accelerate up to .75-cee within IIRC 750km. Sabbat Martyr gives their distance from the inbound Chaos ships, I'll have to check that.

MJ12 Commando · Sep 8th 2004, 4:18pm

WHAT THE FUCK? Accelerate to .75 c in 750 km? Again, why do they even bother with weapons? The sheer energies the drive must be putting out should be enough to destroy planets...

Captain Orsai · Sep 8th 2004, 4:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mj_12commando

WHAT THE FUCK? Accelerate to .75 c in 750 km? Again, why do they even bother with weapons? The sheer energies the drive must be putting out should be enough to destroy planets...

Remember, this IS 40K we're dealing with. It may not make sense, but its there.

MJ12 Commando · Sep 8th 2004, 4:28pm

Ah. Yes. In 40K, painting something red makes it go faster. Why should it make any sense?

hrogge · Sep 8th 2004, 4:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mj_12commando

Ah. Yes. In 40K, painting something red makes it go faster. Why should it make any sense?

It's the psionic powers of the Ork people that make the stuff go faster... so it makes sense.

Just "stupid green mind over matter"...

Vanquisher221 · Sep 9th 2004, 2:50pm

As per the OP, this happens during the height of the GEs power. Whenever that might be.

Wicked · Sep 9th 2004, 3:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Orsai

High gigaton to low teraton range, with some weapons reaching into the petaton-range (Nova cannon shells' KE).

WTF? The estimates *I've* seen were mid-gigaton at most.

hrogge · Sep 9th 2004, 3:26pm

I remember 600 Gigaton shells...

Havock · Sep 9th 2004, 3:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wicked

WTF? The estimates *I've* seen were mid-gigaton at most.

then that was not wh40k

Captain Orsai · Sep 9th 2004, 3:34pm

610GT per torpedo low end, and scaled from there, plus the KE of a shell the size of a WWII destroyer being fired at damn-near lightspeed.

hrogge · Sep 9th 2004, 3:38pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Orsai

610GT per torpedo low end, and scaled from there, plus the KE of a shell the size of a WWII destroyer being fired at damn-near lightspeed.

I remember that 610 gigatons WAS inclusive KE... and the speed was .3 c

Captain Orsai · Sep 9th 2004, 3:39pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrogge

I remember that 610 gigatons WAS inclusive KE... and the speed was .3 c

You're misremembering things. Necronlord came up with the calcs, but he 614 TTs low end, using the velocity of the much less powerful bombardment cannon.

Sep 7th 2004, 9:52pm	#1
Vanquisher221 Pimp Marine Join Date: 24 May 2004 Location: Lurking Posts: 1,880	This has probably been done a zillion times... ...but it must've been before I got here. Anyway, a friend and I were having a discussion and I was just wondering. At some point the IoM decides to invade the galaxy far far away at the height of the Galactic Empire's power. For the purposes of the debate assume that anyone else in the galaxy won't bother the Imperium while their armies are away. How would they do: 1) in space 2) in planetary assaults For an added twist, how would the IoM do pre-heresy?

Sep 7th 2004, 10:11pm	#2
Xort Mahō Shōjo Rear Admiral Otaku Join Date: 8 Feb 2001 Location: Svartalfheim Posts: 33,012	On the ground the IoM wins, just beats the hell out of the GE. In space, the IoM inflicts massive damage on the GE but in the end can't beat them. __________________ It offered 12 graphs, 11 of them based on the most sophisticated climate models... Yet there was that odd graph out... could it be that this was a tainted model - with its assumptions "tweaked" to fit prejudices by climate-change "deniers" funded by the oil industry? No - the graph that contradicted all the others was the one based not on a model but on satellite measurements.

Sep 7th 2004, 10:14pm	#3
E1701 Core High Commander Retired Join Date: 24 Jan 2000 Location: USS Enterprise, in high orbit over Core Prime Posts: 24,205	Which Galactic Empire are we talking about? __________________ Chris Sapiano for admin! Cool Guy for administrative assistant! First lackey of the Tremors for Big 4 Campaign. ALL HAIL BURT! Proud to be an American Total Annihilation vs. BTech is sort of like spraying Agent Orange over the Valley of the Cute Little Bunnies and then firebombing them. - CommissionerJan The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. - Mark Twain

Sep 7th 2004, 10:19pm	#4
PainRack Hebephile Join Date: 29 Jun 2000 Location: Singapore Posts: 11,955	Name how the IOM gets to the Empire first. The problem with any IOM invasion of the Empire always boils down to one thing. The Empire can inflict more damage to the IOM, faster than the IOM can inflict damage to the Empire. Hyperdrive gives the Empire superior mobility, the use of super-weapons means that by the time the IOM captures or destroy two planets, the Empire could had wiped out entire regions. __________________ Me:"Life is cheap.Mechs aren't." Friend:"I'll hate to be in your platoon.""Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts." Katrina Steiner.

Sep 8th 2004, 2:19pm	#5
senor_kickass ATOMIC ROCKET CRUISER Join Date: 1 May 2004 Posts: 5,379	Are you forgetting that the standard IOM cruiser is 3km long and has more than enough firepower to waste an ISD? __________________ The People's Strategic Bomber Forces- We put the "Kill" in Kiloton.

Sep 8th 2004, 2:42pm	#8
Captain Orsai 40K Quote Monkey Join Date: 9 Dec 2002 Location: Northwest England Posts: 11,042	Given that (as per the OP), nobody's bothering the Imperium, it can bring its massive strategic reserves to bear, as they won't be needed against its typical foes. __________________ "These English are a strange people, and their General a wonderful man. They came here in the morning, looked at the pettah wall, walked over it, killed all the garrison, and returned to breakfast! What can withstand them?" - Goklah, Mahratta chieftain, on the escalade of Ahmednuggur, India, by Gen. the Hon. Arthur Wellesley's army, 8 Aug. 1803 "Show me a general who has made no mistakes and you speak of a general who has seldom waged war." - Marshal Turenne, 1641

Sep 8th 2004, 4:18pm	#15
MJ12 Commando Technocrat Join Date: 18 Mar 2004 Location: Everywhere and nowhere. Posts: 31,503	WHAT THE FUCK? Accelerate to .75 c in 750 km? Again, why do they even bother with weapons? The sheer energies the drive must be putting out should be enough to destroy planets... __________________ <Ralson> SB Combines: 1) Obsessive-compulsive focus on how realistic things are 2) Having absolutely no earthly idea what they're talking about because they are dumb as a bag of rocks. "I cannot deny that there are certain advantages to a nova President. For example, if a giant fire-breathing monster threatens Congress, he can jump into Air Force One and rush to the rescue."

Sep 8th 2004, 4:28pm	#17
MJ12 Commando Technocrat Join Date: 18 Mar 2004 Location: Everywhere and nowhere. Posts: 31,503	Ah. Yes. In 40K, painting something red makes it go faster. Why should it make any sense? __________________ <Ralson> SB Combines: 1) Obsessive-compulsive focus on how realistic things are 2) Having absolutely no earthly idea what they're talking about because they are dumb as a bag of rocks. "I cannot deny that there are certain advantages to a nova President. For example, if a giant fire-breathing monster threatens Congress, he can jump into Air Force One and rush to the rescue."

Sep 9th 2004, 2:50pm	#19
Vanquisher221 Pimp Marine Join Date: 24 May 2004 Location: Lurking Posts: 1,880	As per the OP, this happens during the height of the GEs power. Whenever that might be.

Sep 9th 2004, 3:26pm	#21
hrogge Registered Join Date: 30 May 2000 Posts: 5,746	I remember 600 Gigaton shells... __________________ Darth Wang in the Anti-Q debate: No, I conceded this debate. Honorary member of the Rhodanites “Hi.” Mitchell grinned. “Say, look behind you, it’s a diversion!” “A what?” Carlos snapped around, realising half a second too late that it was a very stupid trick to fall for. He grimaced and prepared the inevitable painful strike that was going to render him unconscious. He was not disappointed. --- from "Chronicles of the Crusade"

Sep 9th 2004, 3:34pm	#23
Captain Orsai 40K Quote Monkey Join Date: 9 Dec 2002 Location: Northwest England Posts: 11,042	610GT per torpedo low end, and scaled from there, plus the KE of a shell the size of a WWII destroyer being fired at damn-near lightspeed. __________________ "These English are a strange people, and their General a wonderful man. They came here in the morning, looked at the pettah wall, walked over it, killed all the garrison, and returned to breakfast! What can withstand them?" - Goklah, Mahratta chieftain, on the escalade of Ahmednuggur, India, by Gen. the Hon. Arthur Wellesley's army, 8 Aug. 1803 "Show me a general who has made no mistakes and you speak of a general who has seldom waged war." - Marshal Turenne, 1641

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