[DAC] Federation planetary defences.

[Peregrine]

Following on from the agreement to start a Debating Argument Compendium (DAC) as agreed in this thread (http://forum.spacebattles.com/showth...18#post2135118), here is the first debate.

The debate will last a maximum of three days. Once it is over, I will compile the findings and submit it for approval from the group. Try to keep things civil. No insulting comments will be included in the DAC anyway, so there's no point.

So, for the first debate, something simple.....

What evidence is there for planetary defences in the Federation? If they do exist, what do they consist of? This should include shields, planet based weapons, orbital platforms etc.

[vivftp]

Well I assume we're talking about TNG+ here? I've heard TOS had full planetary shields (source unknown), so maybe someone can dig up that reference.

As for TNG+, they definately have theatre shields. In TNG's Gambit, we learn that a lowely outpost on some random planet is equipted with a shield around the entire facility.

We also have episodes like TNG's We'll Always Have Paris, in which the reclusive scientist Manheim has a shield on the planetoid Vandor IV, around the entire facility.

Then we have DS9's Nor the Battle to the Strong, where the colonists of Agilon Prime had set up a shield around the hospital to hold off the Klingons.

So these examples, plus numerous ones for other Federation-equivelant races tell us that theatre shields are quite common for the Federation during TNG+.

On the topic of weaponry, we know other races like the Cardassians have planetary weapons, which would give us a hint that the Federation would have them too. In DS9's Return to Grace, we see that an outpost has "System 5 disruptors". One of these is loaded into Dukats cargo ship inside a large cargo bay, and it was able to destroy an asteroid (of unknown size) from about 150,000km away. It was also able to severly cripple an unshielded Klingon BOP from close range in 2 shots. The only thing here, is that we don't know if the disruptor was operating at full power, since it had to draw power from the tiny cargo ship, rather than its normal power source.

But as for the Federation, we know in DS9's In the Pale Moonlight, that during the briefing talking about the Dominions invasion of Betazed, Sisko mentioned that Betazeds own defense systems were obsolete, and undermanned. And since he had just mentioned that the fleet assigned to protect Betazed was caught out of position, it's very likely he was talking about some form of planetary defenses.

We also know from the recent ENT episodes that Mars was home to the Verteron Array - a teraforming tool (used to redirect comets), but it could be used to target and destroy any facility or ship in the solar system - and was VERY powerful. Now we don't know if this facility still exists on Mars (since Mars would have long since been teraformed by TNG+ time), there IS a possibility. In TNG's Best of Both Worlds, we hear that the Borg cube had passed the Mars Defense Perimeter. Now all we got to see were 3 tiny ships that were easily swatted by the cube, but it's kinda stupid to think that those ships comprised the ENTIRE MDP. If the Verteron Array (or something like it) was still operational on Mars as part of this MDP, then it's likely the Borg had to go through that as well.

Then there's the whole issue with the Breen fleet that attacked Earth - but we don't really know HOW Starfleet destroyed them (by ship, or by ground defenses, or orbital defenses). But there is some possible evidence of theatre shields being in operation, due to the lack of severe damage in the brief shot we see.

Unfortunately though, we really don't get to see much of Federation planetary defenses... there are hints here and there, and a couple of small examples, but we just don't get to see anything, really.

AFAIK, we've never heard of the Federation using orbital weapons platforms (the Cardassians obviously did) - but at the very least you have to think that any of the larger facilities in orbit of a planet (ie. spacedock, and other starbases) have some weapons of their own - but we don't really know the strength of those. We know in DS9's Valiant that a wing of Jem Hadar ships attacked a small starbase and took it out, but if the larger ones are armed like DS9, then they can each take on entire fleets on their own.

[The General]

Their is evidence for a planitery defence on all the major worlds in the federation. I would think they would be at least on par with chintoka(Boarderworld<<<<Capital world, or at least you would think). The most discriptive example is the Batazed battle, but as with nearly all exmples, this is only in dialoge.




**You could ask an admin to make a new forum for this DAC. It would let you set and enforce the rules of the DAC without having to explain them and lets you carry out your theats more better**

[Peregrine]

Originally Posted by The General

**You could ask an admin to make a new forum for this DAC. It would let you set and enforce the rules of the DAC without having to explain them and lets you carry out your theats more better**

The power!!

Not such a bad idea though. Any idea who is responsible for new forums?

[The General]

I have never tryed this.

Just pick an admin (coolguy, reaperman, tron) and PM.

You could also try and post on the site feedback forum.

[Tiara]

In 'Paradise Lost' (IIRC), they mentioned a planetary defence grid for Earth after the power went down.

They also mentioned that Betazed had outdated planetary defence installations when the Dominion invaded the planet.

[vivftp]

Originally Posted by Tiara

In 'Paradise Lost' (IIRC), they mentioned a planetary defence grid for Earth after the power went down.

They also mentioned that Betazed had outdated planetary defence installations when the Dominion invaded the planet.

Ahh, I knew I was missing something... it was actually in Homefront when they made that statement:

ODO
Take down the power relays, and
you neutralize sensors,
transporters, surface-based
defense installations.

SISKO
In other words, Earth's
defenseless.

[Drifter]

I not sure but in TNG, when the klingon civil war was going on, the Klingon captial city was being bomb from orbit, their seem to be a planetary shield grid.

[MonsterMagnet]

Given the size of UFP starbases and SpaceDock compared to DS9, and the improvements which the UFP placed on DS9 (ie. enough to hold off large Dominon and Klingon fleets) it is highly likely the defences of both are quite substantially higher than DS9.

Given this, it's likely that either SpaceDock or the Starbase near earth could have took out the Breen fleet on their own.

Edit:

As a logical extension, the fact that the Cardies could build a formidable defence grid based on satelites implies that the UFP could do the same or better given the UFP is considerably more advanced than the Cardies (and the Dominion in some areas). When prompted to be so, the UFP is a beast in the Star Trek galaxy, easily outmatching the other powers in the local area and possibly them combined after the dominion war.

MM.

[Torvus]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Following on from the agreement to start a Debating Argument Compendium (DAC) as agreed in this thread (http://forum.spacebattles.com/showth...18#post2135118), here is the first debate.

The debate will last a maximum of three days. Once it is over, I will compile the findings and submit it for approval from the group. Try to keep things civil. No insulting comments will be included in the DAC anyway, so there's no point.

Just to further clarify - everyone participating here (or in future such debates) is working to make the argument as strong as the facts will allow, while acknowledging any weaknesses. The idea is to get objective arguments that can stand up to scrutiny.

[Major Diarrhia]

This sub-forum covers this kind of debate. http://forum.spacebattles.com/forumdisplay.php?f=30

Originally Posted by vivftp

Ahh, I knew I was missing something... it was actually in Homefront when they made that statement:

ODO
Take down the power relays, and
you neutralize sensors,
transporters, surface-based
defense installations.

SISKO
In other words, Earth's
defenseless.

The specific mention of surface-based defenses, in combination with the Cardasian orbital defenses, indicates that Earth may have had orbital defenses in addition to ground based ones.

[Q99]

Hmm... another interesting thing about the quote is the specific mention of sensors and transporters when talking about the defense of Earth.

One way to take it is these are actively used against opponents by the Federation in military conflicts.

[Major Diarrhia]

Transporters are definatly important to planetary defense but all of that is really mentioned in regard to the power relays. Then again, Sisko groups it all as defense and it seems more likely that he isn't ignoring the statement of transporters.

[Ladiesman]

Originally Posted by Major Diarrhia

Transporters are definatly important to planetary defense but all of that is really mentioned in regard to the power relays. Then again, Sisko groups it all as defense and it seems more likely that he isn't ignoring the statement of transporters.

I'm thinking transporters are just a way to move around troops to places they need to be. MOST transport on Earth by that time is likely done by transporters, so if you take them off line, it's going to take some time before they can organize shuttles to pick up troops and move them around. With transporters, you can have every troop on the planet to any location in seconds.

[Major Diarrhia]

That's pretty much it, troop movement. Didn't an admiral say he could mobilise Starfleet security in just a few hours world wide on Earth?

[vivftp]

Originally Posted by Major Diarrhia

That's pretty much it, troop movement. Didn't an admiral say he could mobilise Starfleet security in just a few hours world wide on Earth?

LEYTON
Mister President, we can use the
Lakota's transporters and
communications system to mobilize
every Starfleet officer on Earth
in less than twelve hours.

So utilizing the resources of only ONE starship (refit Excelsioir), they can mobilize possibly hundreds of thousands of officers in just 12 hours.

How can we roughly guess the figure? Well look at the rough officer density outside Siskos fathers resteraunt in New Orleans - when the officers were beaming onto the streets, we only saw a VERY small cross-section, and there were already 5 out there. And anytime we saw a shot of the street (a brief door opening), we saw at least 2 officers patrolling out there). Now imagine that sort of officer density in every city on Earth... and considering the development of Earth over the next 300 years (as opposed to today), you're looking at a LOT more cities cropping up.

So my guess based off of this data is at LEAST hundreds of thousands of officers - most likely multiple millions.

[Yamarus]

Originally Posted by vivftp

LEYTON
Mister President, we can use the
Lakota's transporters and
communications system to mobilize
every Starfleet officer on Earth
in less than twelve hours

Note how dialogue refers to "Lakota's transporters and communication systems". The Lakota may just have warned all Starfleet officers on duty on Earth by acting as a communication relay, while actually beaming a very tiny amount of officers itself.

[vivftp]

Originally Posted by Yamarus

Note how dialogue refers to "Lakota's transporters and communication systems". The Lakota may just have warned all Starfleet officers on duty on Earth by acting as a communication relay, while actually beaming a very tiny amount of officers itself.

No, Earths power grid was still offline when they were beaming the officers around the planet.

Now of course there's the possibility that other ships/facilities became involved in this process, but we really don't have any proof of that. It would appear they just used the Lakota, from all available data we have.


And I was looking through the episode Paradise Lost, and took note of some data when Sisko and Odo are skimming through the list of reassigned officers Leyton had ordered. Among the assignment titles were "PLANETARY DEFENSE SYSTEMS", "TACTICAL OPERATIONS, EARTH", and "COMBAT INFORMATION CENTRE", "PLANETARY DEFENSE SYSTEMS, EARTH", "COMBAT INFORMATION CENTRE, EARTH".

All of these officers had either been assigned to key positions on Earth, or commanding ships somewhere in that sector.

Heh, one thing I found funny from the list, there were some people assigned to, "HYGENIST, STARFLEET DENTAL" - and there were several people transferred there... Could it be Leyton was planning to overthrow the Federation using their dentists?

[Tiara]

Heh, one thing I found funny from the list, there were some people assigned to, "HYGENIST, STARFLEET DENTAL" - and there were several people transferred there... Could it be Leyton was planning to overthrow the Federation using their dentists?

To rule by forced root-canals, is to rule absolutely.

[Scrubula]

When the crew encountered the planetary shield in 'When the Bough Breaks" they seemed to understand how it functioned but at the same time they were impressed at it's size and power. There weren't any good definte quotes that I could find from that episode, but it gave that impression that, while such tech wasn't beyond Federation capabilities, it was at least rare and difficult to build/maintain. At best I'd think that such shields would be very rare in the federation.

Wasn't there a Voyager episode with the 'think tank' where they(the think tank) mentioned how they had managed to create a planetary shield and saved some planet?

Again, nothing definite unfortuanatly, but we are left with the impression that the Federation does not have this capability or uses it very rarely for whatever reason.

[krinsbez]

Originally Posted by Scrubula

When the crew encountered the planetary shield in 'When the Bough Breaks" they seemed to understand how it functioned but at the same time they were impressed at it's size and power. There weren't any good definte quotes that I could find from that episode, but it gave that impression that, while such tech wasn't beyond Federation capabilities, it was at least rare and difficult to build/maintain. At best I'd think that such shields would be very rare in the federation.

Wasn't there a Voyager episode with the 'think tank' where they(the think tank) mentioned how they had managed to create a planetary shield and saved some planet?

Again, nothing definite unfortuanatly, but we are left with the impression that the Federation does not have this capability or uses it very rarely for whatever reason.

I think they were more impressed by the phase cloak aspect of it.

[Major Diarrhia]

I think that a complete encompassing planetary shield is probably considered a waste when you can build shields over specific areas instead. Or perhaps a complete planetary shield that is ground based is simply easier. A real planetary shield like the one in "When the Bough Breaks" would need to be at an orbital level, in order to cover the atmposhere as well, which would make it take significantly more power.

[BobDL]

Off the top of my head as an old fan, in the old series there were I believe two episodes where planetary shields were used. In both cases they were around prison / mental ward planets.

The first case was the episode "Dagger of the Mind" where various characters suffer the mind wiping machine.

The second case is the episode with a green painted Yvonne Craig (Batgirl) and the insane shape shifting character of Fleet Captain Garth if Izar.

I believe the comments regarding the shields from the Enterprise's crew were that transporters could not beam through them and it would take a sustained bombardment from the ship to weaken the shields weakest point to even attempt a beam through.

The prison planets had relatively small staffs so maintenance must not have been an issue.

I'm sure a bit of googling will find the proper synopses of these episodes.

BobDL

[krinsbez]

Originally Posted by BobDL

Off the top of my head as an old fan, in the old series there were I believe two episodes where planetary shields were used. In both cases they were around prison / mental ward planets.

The first case was the episode "Dagger of the Mind" where various characters suffer the mind wiping machine.

The second case is the episode with a green painted Yvonne Craig (Batgirl) and the insane shape shifting character of Fleet Captain Garth if Izar.

I believe the comments regarding the shields from the Enterprise's crew were that transporters could not beam through them and it would take a sustained bombardment from the ship to weaken the shields weakest point to even attempt a beam through.

The prison planets had relatively small staffs so maintenance must not have been an issue.

I'm sure a bit of googling will find the proper synopses of these episodes.

BobDL

The facility from "Whom Gods Destroy" wasn't on a planet, it was on a planetoid.

[Peregrine]

Okay, the three days are up, the debate is over. I will summarise the thread and post the conclusions here as an example of the kind of thing the DAC will include. Everyone will then have an opportunity to comment of the final document.

My only comment on this debate was that there didn't seem to be a lot of disagreement. Perhaps I should have picked a more contraversial subject