Star Wars ground forces vs. Star Trek ground forces

[Die Sloe]

Now I am almost sure of you all debating this one before, but since I am a bit new here, I just couldn't help myself.
Only one rule applies to this one.....ground forces only. No air support whatsoever.

Bloody it up.

[Kagh't]

is this all canon?

cause if it is, there is very little indeed to go by, and SW would win hands down cause of the AT series.

if it is canon and non-canon, then well, ST would just whip.

[Ted C]

This really has been a heavily covered topic, recently.

The most obvious problem for Star Trek is the total lack of personal protective gear. Any type of biological or chemical weapon will be able to devastate Federation troops. Shrapnel from nearby explosions will also be dangerous to Federation troops. Imperial Stormtroopers will be protected from these hazards by their armor.

Federation weapons consistently fail to live up to claims that they have anti-tank firepower. They also fail to live up to claims of tremendous range. At high power, phasers can blast holes in rock walls. The Federation hasn't ever shown much diversity in their weaponry; they have hand phasers, the hip-shooting phaser "rifle", and the First Contact-style phaser rifle. Star Wars small arms demonstrate firepower in the same range (including blasting large chunks out of landing bay walls), and they have squad support weapons like heavy, tripod-mounted repeating blasters.

Every Federation vehicle ever seen is some kind of flyer: they appear to have starships and shuttlecraft and nothing else. Take away the Empire's air support and they still have light vehicles like the AT-ST and heavy vehicles like the AT-AT.

Imperial tactics on the ground have ranged from the fairly professional (the Battle of Hoth) to the woefully inept (the Battle of Endor). Federation ground tactics, however, have been almost universally inept, and only similar incompetence on the part of their enemies has saved them.

In a ground battle, without air support, Federation troops would be ruthlessly slaughtered by Imperial Stormtroopers.

[Bastard]

Originally posted by Ted C
This really has been a heavily covered topic, recently.

The most obvious problem for Star Trek is the total lack of personal protective gear. Any type of biological or chemical weapon will be able to devastate Federation troops. Shrapnel from nearby explosions will also be dangerous to Federation troops. Imperial Stormtroopers will be protected from these hazards by their armor.

Federation weapons consistently fail to live up to claims that they have anti-tank firepower. They also fail to live up to claims of tremendous range. At high power, phasers can blast holes in rock walls. The Federation hasn't ever shown much diversity in their weaponry; they have hand phasers, the hip-shooting phaser "rifle", and the First Contact-style phaser rifle. Star Wars small arms demonstrate firepower in the same range (including blasting large chunks out of landing bay walls), and they have squad support weapons like heavy, tripod-mounted repeating blasters.

Every Federation vehicle ever seen is some kind of flyer: they appear to have starships and shuttlecraft and nothing else. Take away the Empire's air support and they still have light vehicles like the AT-ST and heavy vehicles like the AT-AT.

Imperial tactics on the ground have ranged from the fairly professional (the Battle of Hoth) to the woefully inept (the Battle of Endor). Federation ground tactics, however, have been almost universally inept, and only similar incompetence on the part of their enemies has saved them.

In a ground battle, without air support, Federation troops would be ruthlessly slaughtered by Imperial Stormtroopers.

A number of recent computer games though, have featured Federation ground units equipped wtih tanks, artillery, armor and such. However, I don't know if these are canon...

[Die Sloe]

I agree with Ted C on this one. The Imperial forces would devestate the Federation with little trouble whatsoever. That is not what concerns me. This is everything in one universe vs. everything in another. I am not a big fan of Star Trek, but I have heard of cloaked soliders (dont ask me what race, I honestly could not tell you) that would seriously even the odds in ground combat.

You have the Borg: Numbers alone make this fight a bit more interesting.

Species 8472: From what I have heard, they are the most dangerous race in Star Trek. They kicked the shit out of the Borg as if they didn't even matter.

Then you have the Klingons, who are a battle hardend species quiet capable of holding their own in a land based operation such as this.

Even with all of this, I still give my vote to SW. Throw in the Trade Federation with their dispensible droid army equipped with millions of battle droid and destroyers, and you have a recipe for success. That dosent even begin to throw what the New Republic has, or some of the newer war machines the Empire could throw at it (Tank Droids, anyone?). I think it is a safe bet that Star Wars would own Star Trek for these reasons alone, and I havent even put in the real powerful units yet.

[WarriorclanX]

as usual me the under dog i am going to say trek wins, for a couple of reasons:

1) cloaked troops- the jem ha dar can cloak their troops and have them apear out of no where the empire/TF/NR etc...
will be kinda shock i think

2) Sub space mines- they are undetactible (i think) and would wreak havoc against who ever.

3) borg- they will most likely adapt to te blaster fire and cause some havok if only by blocking incoming shots

4) S8472- ok they would do some thing

5) technobable- if it is trek they will think of something to destroy their blasters or something (note last resort on my behalf)

6) holo graphic troops- just set up some emiters program in some kind of species give em phasers and let em fly

[Cyber]

Ted C- have you watched Insurrection where we see the Isomagnetic disintigrator basically a rocket launcher- phaser set on level 16 are gonna do something to Stormtrooper armour esp if a blaster can. As well as tetryon pulse launchers and type three phaser rifles which are more accurate than blasters will help

IIRC they had armour in one of the earlier movies 2 or 3 IIRC. Also isolation suits could be an asset.

[Tyrannus]

Yes, and remember that 5 foot wide hole and the enemy soldiers flying 2 to 3 feet in the air?

[shenlong_mizuno]

Yeah, that was some rocketlauncher. Looked more like a gernade launcher to me, and a damn weak one to boot

-shenlong

[Cyber]

ohh sarcasm the highest form of wit

Anyway I know it wasn't shown to be too powerful but it shows they have larger weapons

[Mr_Swirly]

hmm...if it was entire universes...I think SW has it...Clone wars anybody? hmm...Imagine a cloned army of Vaders, or Palpatines...I dont think the borg could adapt to having several tons of rock dropped on them, and besides, look how slow they are...unless they use transporters...
SW trooper "Borg drones approaching outter defences"
SW Commander "Good we still have 3 hours to prepare..."


Also on a side note to whoever mentioned games...trust me you dont want games brought into a debate...cause it would criple trek... IE Aramda with a Soverign with 1 phaser and 1 QT launcher...and a soverign=a borg cube=a Romulan Warbird=the Klingon ship.

While Klingons might have it in hand to hand combat against regular troops, Jedis would cut them down. More then liekly the lightsaber would cut through their bat'leth, and we now have roasted klingon.

also SW has the Vong kinda intresting people there.

All in all, it'll be a hard fought battle with many billions if not trillions dead on both sides....

[Meester Bond]

Hmmmm...

Well, I do hate to bring this up, but don't you think transporters would kind of make the need for a vehicle war effort kind of useless? Sure, you can set up 'fields' which disrupt it, but theres always a way past them.

Also, if anyone brings up problems with transporters, I'll bring up the fact that the only Imperial Elite Guard we've ever seen lost to an army of teddy bears, and showed all the strategic sense of a sperm whale. "Send three squads to help! - without checking for ID of message sender!"

[Mr_Swirly]

Hasn't the whole endor screw up been debated over and over and over? besides we could claim ST stupidity atleast Jem Hadar...in that episode in the chintoka system where the feds were defending, and the Jem Ha Dar walked through a mine field, and just kept walking through it....instead of going around....

[Meester Bond]

Originally posted by SW_Master
Hasn't the whole endor screw up been debated over and over and over? besides we could claim ST stupidity atleast Jem Hadar...in that episode in the chintoka system where the feds were defending, and the Jem Ha Dar walked through a mine field, and just kept walking through it....instead of going around....

Mines are explosive and probably hidden. Plus, Jem'Hadar are hardly important. They mature in days and are easily bred.

The Stormies were beaten by teddy bears. Live with it. Stormtroopers are just as big a set of useless idiots as are the Federation "soldiers".

[Ted C]

Originally posted by Cyber
Ted C- have you watched Insurrection where we see the Isomagnetic disintigrator basically a rocket launcher- phaser set on level 16 are gonna do something to Stormtrooper armour esp if a blaster can. As well as tetryon pulse launchers and type three phaser rifles which are more accurate than blasters will help

I have seen Insurrection, and Worf's prompt switch from his phaser to the "isomagnetic disintegrator" (if that's really what it was) is ample proof that phaser range isn't that impressive, since the weapon's effect was not substantially greater than that of a phaser blast: it cause rock to explode with about the effect of a concussion grenade.

I never said Stormtrooper armor would survive a direct hit from a phaser; I said it would survive shrapnel from proximity explosions.

Which phaser rifle are you describing as more accurate than a blaster, since no phaser has ever demonstrated greater accuracy than a blaster? Unless I'm mistaken, the Type III is the model which is routinely fired from the hip, which mean's it can't possibly be very accurate.

IIRC they had armour in one of the earlier movies 2 or 3 IIRC. Also isolation suits could be an asset.

We saw one or two security people in unsealed armor in the background in ST3: The Search for Spock. Such protection disappeared again by ST4 and hasn't been seen since, so it couldn't have been that much good.

In ST5 (ugh!) we saw the landing party wearing suits that might be optimistically described as ballistic cloth, but again it disappears without a trace by ST6.

And we've never seen a trace of armor of any kind since TNG.

[Skelron]

You know whats odd, the evil Empire that considers it's troops to be expendable, So much that so they didn't view the idea of giving their Tie-Fighter's shields isn't viewed as important, offers more protection to it's soldiers than the Federation!!!

Transporters would be an aid to the fereation BUT they do not replace the need for Armour. An AT-AT proves this, I would rather have an AT-AT backing me up than a Transporter since when the Battle begins it's Got the Firepower while the Transporter's use becomes obsolete. The Transporter could help the Federation launch raids into the heart of the Imperial line, but all the Empire needs to do is posistion a troops behind their lines backed up by an AT-AT,

Meanwhile main Imperial assult presses on decimating the Trek Defender's as they go. (Oh and against Klingon's who needs Jedi, just send the Wookies in... HEHEHEHEHe Save the Jedi for something special, like the commander of the Trek forces.)

[areoborg]

Originally posted by SW_Master
Hasn't the whole endor screw up been debated over and over and over? besides we could claim ST stupidity atleast Jem Hadar...in that episode in the chintoka system where the feds were defending, and the Jem Ha Dar walked through a mine field, and just kept walking through it....instead of going around....

According to Sisco, the only way to the comm array was through the narrow canyon. That canyon was where the mine field was. It seemed closer to Picket's Charge than to the Endor disaster. They were ordered to go through the minefield, and they went through without scattering, letting their vehicals get captured, etc.

[M.A.R.S.]

Actually we do see Trek armor in one of the DS9 episodes where Jake is running around on a battlefield (is there more then one?). The soldiers were wearing what looked like an umpire's chest and groin protector. This of course does jack against chemical or bio weaponry.

Huge armies of canon fodder driods and clones, walkers, tanks, area shields, and Ewoks, can't forget them, they'll bite your kneecaps off. I think the day goes to SW.

As for the Klingon threat... What 'til they pick up their Bat'leths and charge, then gun them down like the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.

[E1701]

As far as Trek goes, each of it's races has it's own potential ground troops (though keep in mind that we have NEVER seen a full blown ground battle save ST:5).


UFP - They can bring plenty of advantages into the fray, but mostly technological. First and foremost, their transporters, inhibitors, and isolinear tags. Transporting people off the ground en masse is a valid tactic that has been used before (Insurrection). They also have full complements of marines which we have never seen. We know this through inference, because Damar reports that Federation forces on Chintoka had crushed the Cardassian divisions, and that Cardassian losses to that fighting had topped 7 million soldiers. Furthermore, we can estimate some numbers. During the Dominion War, many ships were lightly manned, and an average crew per ship number would hit somewhere less than 400. But assuming 400 per ship, we have an estimated 3-5 thousand ships engaged on the front. In "Statistical Probabilities", we learn that Starfleet forces on the front lines number around 2 billion. This means that the actual spacefleet accounted for less than .1% of all Starfleet combantants on the front. Assuming the rest include support personnel, perhaps 70%, we are still looking at some 600 million ground troops. Their arms seem to include (but are not limited to) isomagnetic disintigrators (in the Insurrection novel, Worf uses a double-barreled disintigrator, and it causes a full scale mountainslide), ultritium explosives, tetryon pulse launchers (perhaps what Worf used in the movie), and phasers of all styles. There is also the Sniper Rifle, which utilizing transporter tech, has a range of at least a kilometer, and can shoot through obstacles. Not only that, but many of their starships could be used in tactical roles on ground forces, including the Defiant, Prometheus, and Intrepid classes of starship, as well as runabouts, tac-fighters, and shuttles of varying descriptions.

Dominion - Nasty sonsabitches. Jem'Hadar soldiers can be grown from fetus to combat-ready in three days, so the Dominion supply of ground troops is essentially unlimited, assuming they can continue supplying them with ketracel white. They don't eat, sleep, play, or have sex, so they do not need to regroup and rest after a major engagement, as human soldiers would have to. Many are equipped with combat cloaking devices, which also seems to boost their physical movement speeds tremendously. They are armed with weapons designed to cause hemorraging on impact, and they are resistent to most known forms of poison and infectious agents. They also appear to have fairly heavy ground weapons that we never saw. In "What You Leave Behind", a Jem'Hadar garrison force butchered over 800 million Cardassian civilians in under an hour. In the opening move of the events leading up to that, Weyoun told the Cardassian public that Jem'Hadar troops had just levelled Lokarian City, and that in under 2 minutes, some two million Cardassian civilians were killed. They also have subspace land mines, that while tactically useless, are of great strategic value, forcing the enemy to expend lives merely to hold ground.

Klingons - Extremely proud warriors, Klingons have some tactical issues (namely throwing down weapons in close-quarters battle to use hand to hand techniques) that costs them more troops than necessary. However, Klingon warriors should not be underestimated. Klingons have an extremely thick skull designed to absorb blunt impacts, while making effective ramming instruments. Their vital organs are generally redundent and well-protected, so killing them is not easy without doing a lot of extra internal damage, as Worf did to Gowron with two blades at once. Additionally, they are very strong, far moreso than humans, and while usually lacking in the agility department, can cause a lot of damage if a blow does connect. We've never yet met a Klingon that WASN'T armed with blades of various types and uses, so they excel in melee combat. At long range, they use disruptors with two simple settings; kill and vaporize. They contributed heavily to ground combat against the Dominion and Cardassians, so clearly, they too must have effective ground weapons we have not seen. Also too, Bird of Prey's are known to be fully functional in an atmosphere.

Romulans - total unknowns in the ground warfare department, since we have seen almost nothing of even their starship security forces.

Borg - drones ain't too hot, admittadely. But they aren't terrible either. The only time we ever saw them in surface combat was in Unimatrix Zero, where their personal shielding did not operate. In that episode, they operated in roving packs of three or four drones, and sometimes actually ran to persue escapees. They are extremely strong, and shrug off blows from humans with ease. Only the strength of Worf and Data was of any use in melee combat in First Contact. Against energy weapons, they can adapt to just about anything that we've ever seen. There appear to be different varieties of drones outfitted for specific tasks. We know that drones can be equipped with disruptors, and at close range, all drones have nanotubles, that are supposed to be able to punch through anything up to and including shuttlecraft shielding; this of course allows them to rebuild their forces even as they deplete the enemy. Additionally, for large scale operations, orbiting cubes can scoop up entire cities, bases, or troop formations, and assimilate the lot.


Operating together, I don't see that the Empire has a prayer in hell...

That said, a Core or Arm brigade could smack around just about anything BOTH sides could throw at it...

[Ami]

the UFP troops can pull out there TR-116's. they can then kill most of a stormtroopper attack before the stormies get into blaster range

[Alyeska]

ST ground forces mostly rely on orbital support. Take that away and you took away their big advantage. Its not that their ground forces suck, rather they have tailored their forces for their needs, and heavy armor has not been a big need. Take away what appears to be a critical element to their assaults on planets, and you weaken them. I am not complaining that the fight is unfair, both sides have the same restrictions. The only thing is the ST forces have a different operating premis.

Though both DS9 and VGR have made references to armored assault vehicles used by both Klingon and Romulan ground troops.

[Alyeska]

Originally posted by Steve
the UFP troops can pull out there TR-116's. they can then kill most of a stormtroopper attack before the stormies get into blaster range

That is a valid tactic so long as BOTH sides are willing to except that both the SW and ST ground forces are actually run by competent soldiers.

[Tyrannus]

Originally posted by Steve
the UFP troops can pull out there TR-116's. they can then kill most of a stormtroopper attack before the stormies get into blaster range

If you're referring to bullets, wasn't there an arguement about bullets bouncing off stormtrooper armour?

[Alyeska]

Originally posted by Tyrannus


If you're referring to bullets, wasn't there an arguement about bullets punching off stormtrooper armour?

This ain't no ordinary bullet. It was powerful enough to punch a hole right through the outer hull of DS9.

[Kittyburger]

Steve:

The TR-116 suffers from the following problems:

1) Limited non-transporting range
2) Over-dependency on transporting as a gimmick
3) Questionable armor-penetrating ability
4) Extremely small clip

The TR-116 fires handgun-calibur ammunition, which means its ability to penetrate armor will be EXTREMELY limited. We don't know how close it can beam its bullet to the target and we don't know what kind of effect Imperial battlefield ECM will have on its targeting ability.

Additionally, it was a limited-run weapon, so we don't know how many exist, and it's a fair guess that only snipers will be issued it - regular battlefield troops would be issued standard weaponry, which means for each five man fireteam you're going to have:

5 phaser pistols (sidearms)
4 pulse-phaser rifles or type-III phaser SMGs (probably a mix of both)
1 "isomagnetic disintegrator" grenade launcher thingie.

Federation tactical incompetence was adequately demonstrated at the Siege of AR-558.

Here's what a Confederation (Wing Commander) team would have done:

0) Find out the border of the minefield and STAY THE FUCK OUT OF IT.
1) Set up a tripwire at the chokepoint.
2) Set up machine gunners to bracket the chokepoint
3) Connect the tripwire to a claymore mine at the chokepoint.

The second the claymore goes off, the machine gunners open up and turn the fucking valley into a killing field. No more Jem'Hadar (or Kilrathi, or whatever was attacking).

This isn't any particular flash of military genius (I am not a military genius. I came up with this strategy. Therefore it is not a flash of military genius. Q.E.D.). Just common sense.