Anyone wanna calc this?

Laird · Jul 13th 2003, 5:30pm

This is the clip I was babbling about before I went away for a couple weeks that gave Voyager uber shields.

http://members.shaw.ca/dmz/thinktank.zip

What I got but this was before I got the actual clip.
Energy delivered: 2.84e7 GT
Voyager's distance: 300km
Planetoid size: 1000km
Energy distribution: Equal, at center of planetoid.
Voyager's presented shield area: .035km^2

making it 16.7gt with no visable shield damage.

Edit these were my calcs based on guessitmations from watching the ep,If someone wants to do "Real" calcs be my guest.

Also you'll need the Xvid codec to view the clip.

Howedar · Jul 13th 2003, 6:49pm

Do explain how you got these numbers.

**Chris O'Farrell** · Jul 13th 2003, 6:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howedar

Do explain how you got these numbers.

Main Entry: math·e·mat·ics
Pronunciation: "math-'ma-tiks, "ma-th&-
Function: noun plural but usually singular in construction
Date: 1581
1 : the science of numbers and their operations, interrelations, combinations, generalizations, and abstractions and of space configurations and their structure, measurement, transformations, and generalizations

*runs*

Howedar · Jul 13th 2003, 7:07pm

You're damn lucky you put that

in there, else I'd have to hunt you down and light your head on fire

Laird · Jul 13th 2003, 7:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris O'Farrell

Main Entry: math·e·mat·ics
Pronunciation: "math-'ma-tiks, "ma-th&-
Function: noun plural but usually singular in construction
Date: 1581
1 : the science of numbers and their operations, interrelations, combinations, generalizations, and abstractions and of space configurations and their structure, measurement, transformations, and generalizations

*runs*

Best post ever!

Howedar · Jul 13th 2003, 8:01pm

So, after watching the clip Laird's 1000km estimate seems *way* off (no offense to Laird). So I went ahead and took a few pictures for laughs.
Planetoid just prior to explosion
In this shot we can clearly see the planetoid beginning to fragment. The smallest pieces are about 1/20th the planetoid's diameter (I'm being intentionally generous here).
Evil Death Rock approaching
Here we can see an Evil Death Rock approaching Voyager.
Evil Death Rock pt2
And the Evil Death Rock flying by Voyager. It appears to be roughly as wide as Voyager's saucer. This makes it under 100m wide.

This means the planetoid is, being generous, a couple KM across.

Sorry.

Laird · Jul 13th 2003, 8:04pm

Considering that the planetoid is "atleast 60km to the mantle" your argument is Null.

Howedar · Jul 13th 2003, 8:37pm

Or some dumbfuck couldn't read their screen again

This is what we're left with. The dialog and visuals are mutually exclusive. They do not match. Therefore, we have two choices.

Dialog is right. Therefore, we can't tell how violently the planet exploded, how far Voyager was from it, etc. No calcs possible.

Visuals are right. Therefore, the planetoid is several KM across, and Voyager absorbed very little energy. Any numbers we get are very low.

Major Diarrhia · Jul 13th 2003, 9:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howedar

Or some dumbfuck couldn't read their screen again

This is what we're left with. The dialog and visuals are mutually exclusive. They do not match. Therefore, we have two choices.

Dialog is right. Therefore, we can't tell how violently the planet exploded, how far Voyager was from it, etc. No calcs possible.

Visuals are right. Therefore, the planetoid is several KM across, and Voyager absorbed very little energy. Any numbers we get are very low.

Third choice, determinning the size and distance of 3D objects on a 2D screen is very difficult. There for, the rock that swept past Voyager was either very close and very small as you think. Or it was very larg and far away. Another option remains actualy, that rock may not be the same rock we see several seconds earlier.

Howedar · Jul 13th 2003, 10:13pm

The path is the same, and if you actually watch the video its clear it is the same rock. It is also clear that it passes very close to Voyager (it does not appear to be going very fast until it gets close to Voyager, and the amount to which it appears to speed up demonstrates that it is very close to Voyager).

Monster104 · Jul 13th 2003, 10:15pm

Video doesn't play for me.

How do you calculate how much energy is released in that explosion? It's relatively easy to calc much energy would be imparted to Voyager once you do that, and I'm not even that good at math.

Howedar · Jul 13th 2003, 10:29pm

Laird used Mike Wong's calculator, apparently.

We can also determine the speed at which the pieces flew by, as we can see how fast that one rock flew by Voyager. I'm a little tired to do that right now though.

Major Diarrhia · Jul 13th 2003, 10:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monster104

Video doesn't play for me.

How do you calculate how much energy is released in that explosion? It's relatively easy to calc much energy would be imparted to Voyager once you do that, and I'm not even that good at math.

You need this to play the video. http://www.divx-digest.com/software/xvid.html

Master of Ossus · Jul 13th 2003, 10:58pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howedar

So, after watching the clip Laird's 1000km estimate seems *way* off (no offense to Laird). So I went ahead and took a few pictures for laughs.
Planetoid just prior to explosion
In this shot we can clearly see the planetoid beginning to fragment. The smallest pieces are about 1/20th the planetoid's diameter (I'm being intentionally generous here).
Evil Death Rock approaching
Here we can see an Evil Death Rock approaching Voyager.
Evil Death Rock pt2
And the Evil Death Rock flying by Voyager. It appears to be roughly as wide as Voyager's saucer. This makes it under 100m wide.

This means the planetoid is, being generous, a couple KM across.

Sorry.

Howedar is obviously correctly interpreting the scene.

However, you may wish to forward this video to DarkStar so he can use it to support his MCR theory, seeing as how the planetoid's explosion creates fire rings.

Howedar · Jul 13th 2003, 11:04pm

Thank you

Major Diarrhia · Jul 14th 2003, 9:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master of Ossus

Howedar is obviously correctly interpreting the scene.

However, you may wish to forward this video to DarkStar so he can use it to support his MCR theory, seeing as how the planetoid's explosion creates fire rings.

Howedar is correct about the rock fly by but the scene is just weird because of it. I would like to here DarkStar's opinion because he'll do calcs, even if no one will like them.

singulr quartet · Jul 14th 2003, 9:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major Diarrhia

Howedar is correct about the rock fly by but the scene is just weird because of it. I would like to here DarkStar's opinion because he'll do calcs, even if no one will like them.

No, that'll give darkstar a reason to come back... It's been rather nice with him gone, thank you very much.

**E1701** · Jul 14th 2003, 9:57am

There's no way to guage how close to Voyager that rock passes, so no calculation can be made based on that visual.

However, with the stated depth to the mantle given, it should be possible, guesstimating using Earth's composition as a base, what the diameter of the planetoid was. It is worth noting that the planetoid is spherical, and in nature, that shape is only created under significant gravity. Even the asteroid Ceres, at 1,000 km in diameter, does not possess that distinctive roundness. In fact, the smallest objects in the solar system with a profile that round, are some of the smaller moons of Saturn, all of which, without exception, possess a diameter of 1,200 km or greater - and those are notably irregular even so. From the first few frames, I would say that either the planetoid is extraordinarily flat, or that its diamater must be slightly larger than that of our moon.

So in this case, if we take the visual, and ignore the dialogue, as Howedar and Ossus would clearly prefer, there is a contradiction - the rock passing by Voyager cannot be as small as claimed, or the planetoid is extremely dense, or it is somehow ignoring that mass requirement and assuming that round shape in defiance of basic physics.

On the other hand, if we take the dialogue, and most of the visuals, and chalk up only that one example as an FX glitch (or a misinterpretation - I've gone frame by frame, and I don't see that relative distance between it and Voyager), and there is no contradiction.

Namdoolb · Jul 14th 2003, 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laird

This is the clip I was babbling about before I went away for a couple weeks that gave Voyager uber shields.

http://members.shaw.ca/dmz/thinktank.zip

What I got but this was before I got the actual clip.
Energy delivered: 2.84e7 GT
Voyager's distance: 300km
Planetoid size: 1000km
Energy distribution: Equal, at center of planetoid.
Voyager's presented shield area: .035km^2

making it 16.7gt with no visable shield damage.

Edit these were my calcs based on guessitmations from watching the ep,If someone wants to do "Real" calcs be my guest.

Also you'll need the Xvid codec to view the clip.

Laird, where did you get the 300km distance from? Did you calculate it, or is it directly from dialogue?

Because, If it's directly from dialogue, I believe I may be able to approximate the planets diameter based upon it.
but anything I get from that won't be meaningful if the 300km was calced.

Laird · Jul 14th 2003, 11:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namdoolb

Laird, where did you get the 300km distance from? Did you calculate it, or is it directly from dialogue?

Because, If it's directly from dialogue, I believe I may be able to approximate the planets diameter based upon it.
but anything I get from that won't be meaningful if the 300km was calced.

As I said in my original post,All calcs were based off of memory of seeing the ep on tv,So nothing is concrete....thats why I posted this thread to get proper numbers.

the only solid number is "dilithum deposits are 60km into the mantle,We'll need phasers to cut them out."

So anyone who wants to calc/destroy/measure etc...this clip can be my guest...I was hoping it would spark a debate of intellgent debating.(Something this place has been lacking for a long long long time.)

Infact these calcs were based on the shockwave and planet exploding,I completley forgot about the huge rock till I watched the clip that was provided to me.

Denix Linelli · Jul 14th 2003, 12:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howedar

So, after watching the clip Laird's 1000km estimate seems *way* off (no offense to Laird). So I went ahead and took a few pictures for laughs.
Planetoid just prior to explosion
In this shot we can clearly see the planetoid beginning to fragment. The smallest pieces are about 1/20th the planetoid's diameter (I'm being intentionally generous here).
Evil Death Rock approaching
Here we can see an Evil Death Rock approaching Voyager.
Evil Death Rock pt2
And the Evil Death Rock flying by Voyager. It appears to be roughly as wide as Voyager's saucer. This makes it under 100m wide.

This means the planetoid is, being generous, a couple KM across.

Sorry.

Wrong. The "evil death rock" explodes an gets vaporized before reaching voyager.

This is the last frame its visible in before it disappears in the white flash (like the planetoid).

The brown blot in your last screenshot is a burst of gas from the explosion. Good choice of shots though, looks alot like the trailing edge of a rock with motion blur. In the 2 frames before it, it is obvious its a gas cloud and not a rock.

Major Diarrhia · Jul 14th 2003, 1:08pm

If you move that last image forward a few frames you see that the brown blob isn't part of the brown gas and it moves significantly faster than the brown gas.

Denix Linelli · Jul 14th 2003, 2:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major Diarrhia

If you move that last image forward a few frames you see that the brown blob isn't part of the brown gas and it moves significantly faster than the brown gas.

The next frame after those is the one Howedar posted. Its the same blob, only dimmer and larger (as expected since the gas is expanding and becoming thinner). In the frame after that the brown blob has left the screen entirely.

The other brown gas on the right side of Voyager is different and moves slower, yes. It could be some gas that was deflected off the shield and has thus lost most of its speed, or it could be part of the planetoid explosion, or its from a different fragment.

DarkStar · Jul 14th 2003, 2:51pm

Come now, Howedar and Ossus . . . you can't possibly be serious. The planetoid blew itself to smithereens. You're picking one piece out of the numerous pieces of rubble that come out of the conflagration, claiming that it could only be part of the crust, and claiming that when the planetoid explodes, the crust neatly comes apart like a jigsaw puzzle.

I mean, sure, this is a Voyager episode, but that doesn't mean you can throw out common sense as readily as the writers did.

Look at the shape of the planetoid. It is quite nicely round. Listen to what they said . . . 60km down equals within the upper mantle, below the crust. That means the planetoid has a differentiated core, mantle, and crust. Look at the planetoid's surface . . . areas of heavy cratering beside areas which are smooth. That is indicative of geologic activity. And last but not least, just look at the debris that was floating around after the clip above (link). There's plenty of small stuff . . . how could this be if the only debris possible is large (relatively-speaking) pieces of crust?

If that were little more than a tiny asteroid of a size of just a handful of kilometers as you claim, the chances of it being spherical would be ridiculously small. Small bodies of a few kilometers in size don't have the self-gravity necessary to arrange themselves in such a shape. The 900+km asteroid Ceres appears to, whereas the largest irregular object in the solar system, Saturn's moon Hyperion, does not. It'll depend on density, of course, but this places a lower limit on the size of the planetoid of at least a few hundred kilometers in size.

It also couldn't be just a handful of kilometers in size because of the differentiation. To get differentiation, you need heat and gravity. The heat can occur due to gravitational stresses (i.e. from a larger body), or radioactivity (as is thought to have happened on Vesta, the irregularly-shaped 525km asteroid with a differentiated core), or just the heat of formation (EDIT: i.e. the heat which exists at the time of formation, i.e. that it is formed from molten bits). According to this, you need a body at least 50-200 kilometers in size (that's the only general estimate I've found, but fits the other bodies I've looked at). This places another lower limit on the planetoid size, though the shape plus this would agree that it must be at least a few hundred kilometers in size.

The apparent geologic activity . . . the appearance of lunar-style maria on the surface . . . argues for an asteroid of at least Vesta size, though the idea of such a small body as Vesta being capable of having molten rock flows to the surface is considered surprising. Once again, that suggests a body no less than 500km in size.

The small size of even the largest impact craters suggests, assuming a system even remotely like ours, that the body is quite large, also.

Finally, there's the act of calling it a planetoid. That suggests it is smaller than what might commonly be called a planet, despite its general appearance as a moon-sized body. Our smallest planet is Pluto, though some have argued that it is too small and should be stricken from the ranks. Pluto's size is 2300 kilometers.

The general appearance, and the evidence, suggest a body on the order of 1,000-2,000 kilometers in size . . . not two, as the stalwart opponents of anything Trek argue.

Howedar · Jul 14th 2003, 5:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Come now, Howedar and Ossus . . . you can't possibly be serious. The planetoid blew itself to smithereens. You're picking one piece out of the numerous pieces of rubble that come out of the conflagration, claiming that it could only be part of the crust, and claiming that when the planetoid explodes, the crust neatly comes apart like a jigsaw puzzle.

What you see is what you get. I didn't say it made sense.

In addition, we can get a very rough idea of the speed of the flying rock of doom, as it passes about the length of Voyager in a frame. That means its going some 7km/sec. The explosion lasts certianly less than 10sec. Therefore, the planetoid is certainly well under 70km from Voyager. Because of the width of the planetoid when viewed from Voyager, we can tell that it is most certainly smaller than this 70km; more likely 7km. Therefore, the visuals are contradicted anyway.

Oh, and if you insist that the rock of doom becomes a cloud of doom when interacting with Voyager's shields, then you admit that it passed very close to Voyager, making the speed calc above very accurate. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Quote:

I mean, sure, this is a Voyager episode, but that doesn't mean you can throw out common sense as readily as the writers did.

Okay, we can throw out the visuals, then. But then you have no idea how far away from the explosion Voyager was, or how powerful the explosion was. Therefore, you cannot derive any calcs from this.

Quote:

Look at the shape of the planetoid. It is quite nicely round.

Could have been molten in the past, or could have formed while molten.

Quote:

Listen to what they said . . . 60km down equals within the upper mantle, below the crust. That means the planetoid has a differentiated core, mantle, and crust.

If thats how you want to interpret it. But then you must admit that the visuals are wrong. Therefore, you cannot derive calcs.

Quote:

Look at the planetoid's surface . . . areas of heavy cratering beside areas which are smooth. That is indicative of geologic activity.

You base this part of the argument on visuals which clearly show a planetoid much much smaller than 60km, let alone 1000km. We either take visuals over dialog, or dialog over visuals. You can't pick and choose.

Quote:

And last but not least, just look at the debris that was floating around after the clip above (link). There's plenty of small stuff . . . how could this be if the only debris possible is large (relatively-speaking) pieces of crust?

It is at the forefront of the debris field. Furthermore, if the planet has a molten core as you claim, then we wouldn't see a *solid* rock fly out of it!

Quote:

If that were little more than a tiny asteroid of a size of just a handful of kilometers as you claim, the chances of it being spherical would be ridiculously small.