All-In One Battletech Thread, Revision 5.0 (Manei Domini rule, Frails drool)

LBX/5s don't suck... in the AA role?

No, they don't. Are they good? Yes. But they aren't better than everything.

Can they beat the sheer efficiency of an ER small laser?

No.

Can they kill infantry?

No.

Can they hit at 20 range for 10 damage and only 4 heat and 3 tons like LRM-10s?

No.

Can they be added with not heat worries on top of anything like the Gauss rifles?

No.

The reason they seem so good is that every mech NEEDS to have its 20 default heat sinks filled. That means you HAVE to either pick an ERLL, LPL, ERPPC, or medium lasers or a bunch of missiles. Anything else is wasteful.

So they seem more powerful than they really are. It's not that they're great, it's that they're mandatory.

Just because you can find situations where they are outclassed by an inferior weapon doesn't mean that they're not overpowered.

The ERSL has a long range of... 6. These weapons are still in short range when the ERSL is out of range. So you're still looking at a niche role.

LPL kills 3 infantry per shot, 6 if out of cover. This is quite solid.

The LRM-10, which uses explosive ammo, hits on the cluster table, averages 6 damage, and is also one of the most overpowered weapons in the game, being a Clan LRM system? Yeah. That's a really good comparison to make.

OH NO THEY GENERATE HEAT THIS IS SUCH AN AWFUL THING WHEN CLAN DHS ARE SO GOOD AND CLAN XLS EVEN BETTER. Tell me when you have a legitimate complaint. Especially when the gauss rifle is also one of the best weapons in the game, IS or Clan, and it is not an uncommon opinion that the gauss rifle is too good.

I mean, there is a reason the IS has things like the Thunder Hawk and the Clans have the Glass Spider. Sticking a bunch of gauss rifles on something can make almost anything super-effective. And the same goes for ERPPCs.

Errt! Wrong! The ERLL is one of the longest-ranged weapon in the entire game, and has no ammunition dependence and excellent brackets. This is important because long-range weapons will invariably be firing on bad TNs. It's the weakest of the trio, but seriously.

The LPL has an incredible effective range and is a compact, lightweight weapon which you can easily fit a pair of on a light, let alone a medium or heavy, and provides the punch of a PPC with longer range and incredible accuracy. It has consistently been noted as the most broken weapon in the game.

And the ERPPC is an infinite ammo non-explosive gauss rifle. With slightly better maximum range and far lower effective mass (CERPPC is 6 tons plus 7.5 for DHS for 13.5, CGauss is 12 tons plus 2 for ammo plus another 0.5 for DHS at 14.5).

You arguments are rediculous.

ERLL, LPL, ERPPC, Gauss Rifle, and CLRMs are the best weapons in the game?

No shit, that's MOST of the primary weapons right there!

"The ERSL has a long range of... 6."

That's because it isn't a primary weapon. It is there for support, and does its job well. It has a role that none of those other weapons CAN fill.

"No shit, that's most of the primary weapons right there!"

Except for the AC/10 and AC/20-and all their variants, the HAGs, the IS Plasma Rifle, the Heavy Large Laser and its improved version, the ATMs... massed Streak SRMs and standard SRMs... and the ERML battery, which is the primary weapon of many, many mechs. You know why they're 'primary weapons'? Because they're so overpowered every other weapon is relegated to a support role! That's literally the nuts and bolts of things. These weapons are broken. Other weapons are not broken. Complaining weapons don't match up to broken weapons is hilarious whining.

Do you know anything, at all, about Clan weapons and how goddamn overpowered they are? Because your argument is "they're overpowered because they're primary weapons" when in reality the truth is "they're primary weapons because they're overpowered". Your argument isn't just ridiculous, it flies in the face of the fact that literally everyone who knows something about Battletech will disagree with you.

Heavy Lasers are sawn off ERPPCs they and AC20's and SRMs aren't primaries for the same reason a shotgun isn't a primary weapon, they're short ranged. Long ranged weapons are ALWAYS the primary.

ERMLs and ATMs are good for versatility, but they sacrifice sheer force in any one area to get it. ERMLs aren't the most efficient, or the lightest, or the longest range, they're just good at all of them. That's why they aren't primaries.

AC10's are AC10's and HAGs are HAGs.

The reason you say they're OP because you're comparing them to IS weapons. NO SHIT THEY'RE BETTER! They are supposed to be better! That's the entire point of Clan VS IS.

Compare them to just Clan and they're much more reasonable.

What a joke. King Crab. Hunchback. Atlas. Dire Wolf Widowmaker. Gladiator B. Kodiak. Kingfisher B. Hellbringer C. What's that? All of these mechs treat AC20s as primary weapons and don't suffer for it?

Oh right. That's because AC20s are primary weapons, despite your verbal diarrhea.

What about the fucking Nova and its ERML array? Or the Turkina, which uses ATMs as its primary weapon? No, ERMLs are overpowered, and are quite an effective primary weapon.

There is a reason the Nova is considered a really good mech despite its design shortcomings, and about 99% of them are some variation of "12 x ER Medium Laser".

Yes, both reasonably good primary weapons... outclassed by 3050s tech. Congrats for admitting it!

Um, what? When did I compare them to IS weapons? And in fact, you can compare them to Clan ballistics as well, or other non-overpowered Clan weapons (such as [improved] Heavy Lasers) and come to the same conclusion, that these weapons are ridiculously overpowered and that whining that (X) weapon isn't as awesome as they are is just whinging that Catalyst understands game balance a bit better than the guys who made the Clan original weapons list.

Possibly because they have several of those guys on-staff, and they have been quoted, repeatedly, as saying "if we did the Clans knowing what we do now, the weapons I just mentioned would no longer exist".

Apparently the Clanners are getting improved versions of Standard Lasers and Autocannons in Interstellar Operations. Late Gen versions of them before they gave up on them.

Did this once.

Clan Laser Family: Extended range adds 50% to the heat generated and adds range. The clans could easily remove the ER from their lasers for far better heat efficiency. Their reduced range lasers are still as long range as IS ER lasers. Also can be called un-ER Lasers. The Micro seems both incredibly useful and useless at the same time.

Large Laser
Heat:8
Damage:10
Range:0/6/14/20
Tonnage:4
Crits:1

Medium Laser
Heat:3
Damage:7
Range:0/4/8/12
Tonnage:1
Crits:1

Small Laser
Heat:1
Damage:5
Range:0/1/2/3
Tonnage:0.5
Crits:1

Micro Laser
Heat:0
Damage:2
Range:0/1/2/X
Tonnage:0.25
Crits:1

These are based off the ones in the first printing of the non-revised Technical Readout 3050. Yes, FIRST PRINTING. They were removed in later Reprintings, let alone 3050R/3050U.

Rook? I guess that you haven't seen the NH-2 version then:
Maxed armor, 4/6/6 movement, compact gyro, 4 Medium Lasers, 1 ER PPC, 1 Small Pulse Laser and 12 double heat sinks.

I was more talking about the NH-1A and 1B variants.

I agree about liking 'Mechs that aren't perfect in every way. Heck, one of my favorite designs ever is the Deimos. 6 Ultra AC/2s, two LRM-15s, and a laser or two. It only mounts Standard armor and the LRMs don't have enough ammo. And it has six of the worst Autocannon ever made. But I love it, dearly, because it looks great and it was fun in MW4. And who doesn't like the Charger?

And I was talking about the King Crab, right?

Anyways, in one campaign I was playing as the Wobbies (remember the hypothetical Jihad situation I gave back in the last thread, WoB versus Homeworlder Clans + Society? Yeah.) I had a Manei Domini pilot with Natural Aptitude: Gunnery and a VDNI.

So, I decided, since he managed Ace in one game (killed 5 mechs!) to give him a custom design.

He spent most of his time in Comminus (close-range combat) Omni variants, so he got a King Crab. The mother of all King Crabs. And with NA(Gunnery) he has like a 0.4% chance of jamming an autocannon on Ultra, so he can safely use twin UAC/20s for 80 points of fuck-you. The ERPPC is really just window dressing. And yes, it's a Clan ERPPC, but I had a pile of them due to salvage.

Code:

King Crab Abrasax

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 13,552,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,165

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Composite
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  (CL) ER PPC
    2  (IS) Ultra AC/20s
    1  Improved C3 Computer
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

Battle History:


Additional: 


================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Composite               152 points                7.50
    Internal Locations: 3 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL, 2 RL
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0 
Heat Sinks:         (IS) Double Heat Sink        15(30)                    5.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 CT, 1 RT
Gyro:                                                                      0.00
Cockpit:            Interface                                              4.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 304                 19.00
    CASE II Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT                                          2.00

                                                      Internal       Armor      
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     31           46        
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  15        
                                           L/R Torso     21           32        
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  10        
                                             L/R Arm     17           34        
                                             L/R Leg     21           41        

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(IS) Ultra AC/20                             RT/RA     8         2/8      15.00
Improved C3 Computer                         RT        0         2         2.50
(IS) Ultra AC/20                             LT/LA     8         2/8      15.00
(CL) ER PPC                                  LT        15        2         6.00
@Ultra AC/20 (15)                            RT        -         3         3.00
@Ultra AC/20 (10)                            LT        -         2         2.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 3

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 32
3          5       5       1       0      4     3   Structure:  4
Special Abilities: C3I, CASEII, MHQ2, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

EDIT: Given that the Kraken is a King Crab IIC I suppose I could have used Clan Endo instead and I definitely had a bunch of Clan 300XLs, but that kind of defeats the point.

I think this would be a bit better.

Code:

Triad 
Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E
Production Year: 0
Cost: 10,657,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,500
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Patchwork
Armament:
    3  ER PPCs
    1  Guardian ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     152 points               10.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0 
Heat Sinks:         Double Heat Sink             21(42)                   11.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 3 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA    R: SH+UA+LA
Armor:              Patchwork                    AV - 307                 25.50
                                                      Internal       Armor      
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                   Head              (Hardened Armor)    3            9         
           Center Torso              (Hardened Armor)    31           46        
    Center Torso (rear)                                               16        
             Left Torso              (Standard Armor)    21           31        
      Left Torso (rear)                                               11        
            Right Torso              (Standard Armor)    21           31        
     Right Torso (rear)                                               11        
               Left Arm              (Standard Armor)    17           34        
              Right Arm              (Standard Armor)    17           34        
               Left Leg               (Ferro-Fibrous)    21           42        
              Right Leg               (Ferro-Fibrous)    21           42        
================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC                                       RA        15        3         7.00
ER PPC                                       LA        15        3         7.00
ER PPC                                       RT        15        3         7.00
Targeting Computer                           LT        -         6         6.00
Guardian ECM Suite                           CT        0         2         1.50
                                            Free Critical Slots: 1
BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 25
3          4       4       4       0      4     0   Structure:  8
Special Abilities: ECM, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

Going with the idea of hybridization, here's my attempt at a tough mech that can travel in groups to tear things apart.

Code:

Strike Mech V2

Mass: 55 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Era Specific
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X
Production Year: 0
Cost: 9,037,505 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,101

Construction Options: Fractional Accounting

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 275 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Lamellor
Armament:
    1  (CL) ER PPC
    1  (CL) ER Micro Laser
    1  (CL) Flamer
    1  (CL) Laser Anti-Missile System
    1  Nova CEWS
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure:  Hybrid
   Head:             Reinforced             3(6) points         0       0.55
   Center Torso:     Endo-Steel         17 points           0       1.375
   Left Torso:       Endo-Steel          13 points           0       0.825
   Right Torso:      Endo-Steel          13 points           0       0.825
   Left Arm:         Endo-Steel           9 points           0       0.275
   Right Arm:        Endo-Steel          9 points           0       0.275
   Left Leg:         Endo-Steel          13 points           0       0.275
   Right Leg:       Endo-Steel          13 points           0       0.275
Engine:             Fusion Engine                275                      15.500
    Walking MP: 5
    Running MP: 8
    Jumping MP: 0 
Heat Sinks:         (CL) Double Heat Sink        15(30)                    5.000
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.000
Cockpit:            Torso-Mounted                                          4.000
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA    R: SH+UA
Armor:              Ferro-Lamellor               AV - 185                 13.209
    Armor Locations: 5 LA, 5 RA, 1 LL, 1 RL

                                                      Internal       Armor      
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     18           27        
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  9         
                                           L/R Torso     13           20        
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  6         
                                             L/R Arm     9            18        
                                             L/R Leg     13           26        

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(CL) ER PPC                                  RT        15        2         6.000
(CL) Targeting Computer                      RT        -         2         2.000
Nova CEWS                                    LT        2         1         1.500
(CL) Flamer                                  LT        3         1         0.500
(CL) ER Micro Laser                          LT        1         1         0.250
(CL) Laser Anti-Missile System               HD        5         1         1.000
Chameleon LPS                                *         6         6         0.000
                                            Free Critical Slots: 9

* The Chameleon LPS occupies 1 slot in every location except the HD and CT.

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      7    Points: 21
5          3       2       2       0      2     0   Structure:  5
Special Abilities: ECM, STL, AMS, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

Positive
Accurate Weapon (CERPPC): +3 points
Low Profile: +3 Points
Improved Targeting (Long): +5 Points
Extended Torso Twist: +3 Points
Modular Weapons: +1 Point

Negative
Weak Head Armor: -2 points
No Ejection System: -2 Points
Poor Life Support: -1 Point
Bad Reputation: -1 Point
No Arms: -3 Points
No Cooling Jacket (Flamer): -2 Points
Poor Cooling Jacket (ER Micro): -1 Point
Difficult to Maintain: -1 Point
Poor Targeting (Short): -2 Points

It's meant to be as hard to hit as possible, while still having large amounts of armor, and enough secondary weapons to not be afraid of infantry or BA. It focuses on fighting at long range, but can get closer if it needs to.

Hmm...

How about a close range version?

Code:

Triad  V2

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Era Specific
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-F
Production Year: 0
Cost: 12,303,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,421

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
    Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Patchwork
Armament:
    1  (IS) ER PPC
    3  (IS) Snub-Nose PPCs
    1  (IS) Small X-Pulse Laser
    1  Angel ECM
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                     152 points               10.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                300                      19.00
    Walking MP: 3
    Running MP: 5
    Jumping MP: 0 
Heat Sinks:         (IS) Double Heat Sink        22(44)                   12.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 4 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA
Gyro:               Standard                                               3.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Patchwork                    AV - 305                 25.00

                                                      Internal       Armor      
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                   Head              (Hardened Armor)    3            9         
           Center Torso              (Hardened Armor)    31           44        
    Center Torso (rear)                                               16        
             Left Torso              (Standard Armor)    21           31        
      Left Torso (rear)                                               11        
            Right Torso              (Standard Armor)    21           31        
     Right Torso (rear)                                               11        
               Left Arm              (Standard Armor)    17           34        
              Right Arm              (Standard Armor)    17           34        
               Left Leg         (Light Ferro-Fibrous)    21           42        
              Right Leg               (Ferro-Fibrous)    21           42        

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(IS) Snub-Nose PPC                           RA        10        2         6.00
(IS) Snub-Nose PPC                           LA        10        2         6.00
(IS) ER PPC                                  LT        15        3         7.00
Angel ECM                                    LT        0         2         2.00
(IS) Snub-Nose PPC                           CT        10        2         6.00
(IS) Small X-Pulse Laser                     HD        3         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 2

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:     10    Points: 24
3          5       4       1       0      4     0   Structure:  8
Special Abilities: AECM, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

FFS...

Stop with the abuse of quirks and mixed tech... shesh.

Where did I use mixed tech?

Well... alot of your designs are labeled as such... which usually means I just glance over...

Stop commenting on them and comment on the King Crab Abrasax!

Probably could do with an extra DHS to fire off both Ultra/20s at double-tap? But other then that... a ride fit for a Manei Domini.

Normally I don't like to skimp on the long-range weapons for anything that goes 3-5.

But then you don't get to use ridiculously big guns.

Actually, I do kinda agree. I prefer my Assaults to mount heavy long range weapons batteries... and a C3 Slave to link them in with lighter units who get closer.