Look. You want to know what kinetic kill weapons can do in real life? Just take a look at Berringer Crater, aka Meteor Crator, in Arizona. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_Crater That nice large, deep hole was made by a chunk of iron only 54 yards across. Estimated energy release when it hit? Ten megatons. Of course, throwing rocks THAT large probably violates the Ares Conventions, but it certainly doesn't violate the laws of physics. So yeah, KKW will likely kill mechs. The question is, do you have (or can you build) a railgun/coilgun big enough to give you that sort of yield... If you can (at least in the BT universe), you're going to suddenly have quite a few enemies - and more than a few "friends" who would like it if you shared with them. :drevil: Ed.
150 kilotons of NiFe at ~ 13 kps will give you that. Alternatively, a 1700 ton Leopard impacting at 125 kps should give you about the same level of kinetic energy release. DropShip kamikaze runs are not something to be taken lightly.
you could just as easily design a dropship as a pusher ship. Push a big rock on the right course, fire a couple counter thrusters, then start thrusting in another direction away. save yourself a dropship engine, use it to push a rock.
I will have to say that MJ12 is more or less right about the direction most of you guys are going. It's a typical symptom of any "hey, what if SB were involved in this verse" idea. That is to say, an excessive amount of "this will be cool" opinions all shaped for the explicit purpose of godmodding your views across the entire material regardless of the plausibility, practicality or effectiveness. All this talk about KKVs, planet crackers and all that? It's an attempt to turn your favourite side (CEarth in this case), into one giant Mary Sue. And in doing so, you all forget one critical criteria of storytelling. Suspense. It was long established that CEarth is a tiny fish, and that should have been the core of the story. But you sacrifice that with your big dreams of firepower and then wonder why people don't like it. Mary Sue Dansel was just the most obvious symptom of the larger problem.
You do know that most of the 'armor' on a mech is actually scaffolding right? 19 tons of armor spread over a 100 ton frame is not all that thick, especially given that BTech armor isn't particularly ultralight. The Mackie's armor is something like ~20mm, and that's using primitive armor, which is heavier for the same protection weight and not denser. By the time you're seeing holes in your armor, your armor is outright gone. So now prove that the armor was destroyed in one spot without the surrounding parts destroyed, when the Mackie's armor was less than an inch thick so you're not going to be able to see armor ablation. You're claiming the armor can be destroyed in one spot without the surrounding parts being destroyed, you have provided zero proof for the viewpoint. Statements about vaporization also don't seem uncommon. Are IS Small Lasers now gigajoule-range weapons? Fiction uses figurative language. That's how it works. When you are arguing from figurative language, and have, again, no actual reason for this to exist... why do you persist? Okay, sure, you can instant kill mechs with weapons. That was the entire point of the alterations to Capital weapons. Just not on anything that is reasonably convenient. When your railgun is as difficult to deploy surface-to-surface as a capital missile (which needs twenty+ seconds to accelerate to full velocity before it can dive down and hit something, and requires a 100+ ton launcher and 30+ ton missiles), then you might get it somewhere near acceptable. Until then, I will keep up the refrain of... why are you not just using gauss-rifle alikes? I mean, hell, switch the stats up a little. Maybe the railgun generates energy weapon like heat and has a chance of fusing the rails uselessly but masses only as much as a Clan weapon. Maybe it generates 10 heat for iHGR damage at LGR range, but masses the same. Maybe it uses half-weight ammo and has not-tiny heat generation. There are plenty of ways to include the railgun, you are just choosing the one way that makes it most ridiculous and is the least acceptable, because it goes 'fuck you universe combat paradigms, we know what's best for you'. My argument isn't specifically about its AP properties. My argument is that its AP properties are making it some kind of instant kill murder stick and that just shouldn't be fucking flying. Hell, if you made it the equivalent of a HVAC/10 firing AP ammo, that would be fine too. Reasonable weapons I will generally accept, such as VACs and improved rifles. You are not making reasonable weapons. The difference is that as Stackpole, Coleman, and most BTech authors write, until you've lost all your armor in the location the damage is literally just cosmetic. Now, obviously you can penetrate armor. Capital missiles do it, AC AP ammo and Tandem Charges do it. But their penetrations are neither guaranteed, reliable, nor do they magically destroy an entire mech section on an 80 ton machine. So really, that's the crux of the issue. Whether it's possible to get reliable, catastrophic penetration, not whether it's possible to penetrate Battletech armor without wearing it all away. And the answer to that is a pretty clear 'no'. Two hits to the side torso of a Scat are going to go internal, and again, gouges is amusingly vague and tells you very little. "crater" says nothing about depth, and you assume lucky ones can't be plural... why? Do I really need to find one of those Megamek reports where a single Warhawk ER PPCs 4 mechs to death with 4 headshots in one round or something to prove that in a large enough sample size, literally anything is possible?
With 4 mechs as the command lance, add a company of vees with another 3 of infantry for a combined arms reinforced battalion. That seems more or less correst for Helm even if a bit light on infantry, I mean it is infantry, it should be ridiculously easy to raise compared to mechs and vehicles. Perhaps you should add some mechs owned by Helm´s landholders, private machines, no more than 12 not all that well maintained to boot.
Remember when D&D was "you enter the room, there is [monster] guarding a chest, roll initative"? That's what BT was designed as, the RPG version just gives continuity so if you lost your mech in yesterdays battle it won't be back in mint condition today. If you assume rules meant for a dungeon crawl game apply to everything outside combat you get problems, same for BT. For example, there is no rule that says you can't fire your lasers 24/7 for years if your mech just can handle the heat because the ambient heat degrading heatsink capacity, wear on components and the fusion plant running out of hydrogen aren't an issue in the minutes/hours long battles the rules were designed for. So no, BT armor probably cannot block 100% of gamma radiation. It simply is not an issue because any nuke that could kill your crew by radiation fast enough for it to matter during combat will already have vaped them. If they die 2 days later, that's because you forgot to get Radaway for your medic. As for ablation/penetration, use whatever makes better story and remember that, unlike in the boardgame, weapons do not really do exact same amount of damage regardless of shot range, angle and hit location. The snippet about Beastslayer was nicely written, now about the thing itself... You know, if combat mechs are one of the stupidest ideas ever, what about a dedicated mechkiller? OK, it makes little more sense in BT, but I figure this makes a great side story how CEarth wasted about billion credits to relearn why the Maus tank was a bad idea. That should silence screams of "Earthwank". Sure, it can oneshot any heavy mech that pokes its head over the horizon and then stays still long enough. Likevise, few people will make the mistake of landing their dropship into it's field of fire twice. However, any idiots who would try to attack it head-on with nothing but slowest and biggest mechs around will easily be killed off by other units. If it actually is the only unit around, even those plodders can outmaneuver it. Unfortunatley CSN already taught IS that lesson with artillery and missiles... This could be used to explain why SL didn't field similiar units, not outside Terra at least: Let's start with the humongous railgun, how many of these vehicles can you fit in whatever dropship SLDF regularly used? Compare that to normal arty, tanks and mechs and remember that a siege cannon has very few uses you cannot use your other units for. Also, normal units need ammo, fuel and some spares. This thing needs replacement barrels the size of a capital missile, plus the regular ammo and spares. As was pointed out, it would be good for defence but it's not heavy enough to really shoot down dropships. It's also unlikely to ever get fast enough to run away or join an attack against a maneuvering enemy. Biggest problem is the fact this is very overspecialised vehicle, as the gun is too big to shoot at anything smaller or faster than an assaultmech. With luck, in a battle agaist pirates or other forces with very limited tech base and dropship capacity you could take out all the enemy's heavy hitters early and have an easy battle. Against a more realistic invasion you draw enough attention to your big gun that you'll get swarmed or bombed or bypassed and it becomes a giant waste of resources. Not just building it, you need other units to support it that might be more useful in some other role. Like I said, it would make a good story about how CEarth doesn't always win at everything and why theories do not always apply IRL.
Holes in the armor without armor around it? I would like to see a picture. Mind providing? I, BTW, usually find references to the plates being sliced off or sliced through (which doesn't require as much energy). The plates falling to the ground after that are not figurative language. LB-X shrapnel getting through holes to the inner structure (and hits elsewhere not capable of that, indicating intact armor) is not figurative language. It is actual description of results. A hole through the armor is "just cosmetic"? The answer is always "yes". It's just a question of how much you need to concentrate the damage. It's possible the surrounding armor will be cracked by the shockwave, of course. I heard some museum has a Soviet and a German WWII tanks which were both shot with a battleship gun as an experiment. The Soviet tank was left repairable with a neat hole in the middle, the German with meter wide cracks all over. But both were blasted through. You are saying that the IS goes with the second option in armor quality? Whatever. Actually, the Orion was the one hit on the side. Them being "craters" is your own invention. The book merely says that they are deep and that shrapnel can get through them all the way to the inner structure.
Your statement is canonly demonstrated as false by the Gauss Rifle. Despite BT armor's extreme resistance to isolated impacts, a single round from the Gauss rifle inflicts 50% more damage than a burst from an AC/10. If a gauss rifle can reach the armor's failure point, then so can a Railgun.
Omeganian, you forgot about the canon fluff for LB-X rounds when used against ASFs. And in fact, is the whole point they're so deadly against ASFs (or anything that flies that isn't a dropship). The cluster round's fragmentation shrapnel chews the hell out of the control surfaces of anything they hit, which are all myomer based btw (if we go by MJ12). It also gets beneath the armor plates in subsequent hits to compound the issue even further. There's a reason it's referred to, both in and outside the universe, as 'sandblasting' a target, because it pretty much acts and looks like what would happen if you took a sandblaster and ramped it up a couple hundred times larger. ======= And then there's the Heavy Gauss in both versions... I'd mention the HAGs but those are more like Gauss Shotguns, rather then firing a single large projectile. On that note, can someone please explain to me how the hell the Silver Bullet Gauss failed? Or have they forgotten how a sabot/cannister round works? In that the US Army had field deployed 'beehive' rounds you could fire from a normal, unmodified, tank cannon, back in the 1970s. Or, more to the point, why they couldn't put SBGauss rounds into a normal Gauss and/or vice-versa. I can at least see a 'normal' Gauss Rifle not being able to do it, due to perhaps having a difference in round length (sort of how some rifles can use both short & long cartridges, but other rifles can't), while a SBGauss is setup to fire both types. Could likely handwave it that the real SBGauss is more bulky (9 crits?) due to needing a change in the magnetic coils in order to safely fire either solid or fragmentation shot due to the differences in how the two round types are shaped. *shrugs*
I think it may be better to think of BTech armor protection as a bell curve. Relatively low-velocity impacts, such as a fall or Punch/club attack, do a fair bit of damage. Higher-velocity impacts like a modern-day tank shell (HEAT for example) don't fare as well, but even that has a limit. When you get to Sabots, BTech autocannons, and Gauss Rifles, they can get past even the increased protection against high-velocity kinetic energy. Or something like that. I think I may need to rephrase that. But really that's not the issue. I don't come through here often, but I swear this is the THIRD time I've seen that same wanky little Railgun vehicle come up, and the THIRD time you've had this argument. Seriously man, take the hint. This story does not need a vehicle-mounted platform that can one-shot an assault mech. How realistic it is doesn't enter into it one bit. Look, I know a lot of you guys want to come with real cool, kick-ass-awesome designs, but damnit, this is like those guys on MUGEN who keep trying to top Nightmare Geese. Guys, the point is not to make the most awesome, unstoppable force the Inner Sphere has ever seen. The point of the story is not about how much cooler, more sensible stuff can be made in real life over Battletech's stuff. It's not about Motherlode tech being the most strongest, most toughest, most and realistic. The Point is not that the CSN does things better, but that they do things differently. That they change society and technology because they are looking at things from a different direction than the Inner Sphere does.
Same people each time, or different ones? Remember the original ATV thread? I read trough the whole thing and every few pages there was another new guy who hadn't going "Hey, I have this brilliant idea NOBODY has had before: Starfuries with Fed tech! What do you think?" Sadly, those weren't the worst ideas or even stupidest posters...
Are we reading the same subforum? 'Cos that is not the point of all this rigamarole. Like, at all. It hasn't been the point of the BTRR since day two, maybe sooner. Don't get me wrong, I like your point. Your point makes for a more interesting and dare I say it compelling story. But the BTRR isn't about story anymore, it's not even about worldbuilding, it's about endless rounds of techwank and argument that goes absolutely nowhere.
The gauss rifle uses slugs with significantly higher velocity AND mass. An AC/10 burst masses 100 kg, ~30 of which is casing and of the remaining 70 kg some is propellant. The gauss rifle slug masses more than twice as much and if AT2 ranges are to be believed has anywhere from 50 to 100% higher velocity. To do 50% more damage, it has around 4-8 times the KE. It's the poster child of showing how bigger single whacks absolutely suck against BT armor, for all that it's an incredible weapon. And it doesn't really overcome armor. It just does damage, it has no special TAC chance or anything. I'll address Barricade's inaccuracies when I get off work.
Hrm, looking at possible Pirate Mechs, and came across the Whitworth, whose only claim to fame in my book is that I had never heard of it before today. Also planning on having them field a Triumph class DropShip escorted by AeroSpace assets, but that's something I want to run by you guys first. The following snippit assumes those forces though, so I'll feel free to change them if you guys suggest otherwise. Now taking requests for cameo appearances as Pirates, Helm Garrison or Irian combatants. You guys, not which fictional character you'd like to see. *ahem* I think I'm rushing a bit, but that's what re-writes are for. Control Center, Helmdown Starport 23 September 3025 “Sir?” The young aide approached his boss carefully. “I did those checks on the arrivals these past two weeks, and I think we have a pirate.” Triumph DropShip “Semper Fi” En route to Helm, Freeworlds League 24 September 3025 Major Fi strode back and forth beside the tactical table. Her bald and scarred head spoke of many combat campaigns, and this one was just the wrong kind of stink for her liking. It was a simple demonstration raid for her company's employers, a show of force by landing, shooting up the target, then withdrawing. It was promised to be easy. Too easy, and that was the problem. They were on standby back at Stewart when the message came in two days previously. The raid was a go, and so they had jumped in, her heavily modified Triumph more equipped to handle military resources than cargo now headed towards the target. She looked over at her XO, a former direct employee with Irian who was allowed to 'retire' to her command after injuries defending Irian interests from Combine based competitors. Fi never regretted having him aboard. “Your plan?” It was the way of the two of them. They would both examine a situation at the same time and come up with their own plans. Then they would compare notes and refine the plan from there. That they came from two different schools of combat only helped as they could see weaknesses in each others plans and fix them. It worked, and kept them in business. “Our employers have stated that they have secured the non-participation of the local garrison, but we will need to remind our boys and girls who they can play with. Other than that, the hardest part will be getting out of the port itself. It's a mess with the increased traffic, and there's no place to land closer to the target than that that we can use. I'd recommend keeping the heavier 'Mechs back to cover us and intimidate the locals into inaction. Our recon Lance can make the run up to the target for the hit-and-run. Use one of our AeroSpace fighters for a recon run first.” “I agree.” Li glared at the map tacked to the table. “The worst part is we don't know what the defences are like. There's no records of a raid made against this facility before, being an IndustrialMech facility without Fusion generators made it such a low value target...” “Which means the defenders are untested as well. What do you think our forces will face?” “If I were them, militia guards against infantry, plus some static defences. These hills here, here, here and here” she pointed to them on the map, “all give good coverage of the approaching road and area if they had LRMs on them. The clear-cutting to both sides would make for one hell of a kill box. Best give orders to avoid it entirely.” “I agree. I think we should keep the vehicles along the approach in and out of town. The Garrison might do something to keep up appearances for the locals though, even though they have their orders to.” The conversation continued for long hours. Freidman Manor House Outside Helmdown, Helm Jacob Freidman was a middle aged man with two things of importance attached to him. First was that his family owned a large chunk of land that the city was built on, though not enough to make him the equal of the Landholder, and second was his Orion. The venerable BattleMech had been in his family since the fall of the Star League, and together the Mech and family had defended Helm from the occasional Lyran raid, or responding to attacks on nearby worlds. As such, his official title was Head of Helm Militia, and it was in this capacity, not as the friendly neighbourhood landlord that he sat down in his office with a representative from the Spaceport. The nervous young man had explained about his checks and revelation about the identity of a certain DropShip that had arrived in the past week. Freidman carefully quizzed the youngster about the activities of the crew of the ship, and found that they were looking for shipping contracts, as well as taking some of the offered educational courses from the Factory. “I think you have a point. But they haven't done anything wrong on this side of the border, so we can't just arrest them. I think, then, I'll arrange to do a couple patrols of the Spaceport myself, just to let them know to keep their noses clean. They start anything, we'll finish it. Thank you.”
So, Helm Militia Forces: ON1-K Orion JVN-10N Javelin (probable, possibly a Fire Javelin variant) LCT-1V Locust (probable) a VERY well worn FLE-15 Flea about 8 light / medium armored vehicles and maybe 4-5 platoons of standard infantry Pirate/Irian forces (Triumph class DropShip transport) Probably 2 lances of 'Mechs (including the aforementioned Whitworth), 2-4 ASF's, 8-10 armor units and let's say 4 platoons worth of support personnel. The combat stats for a 3025 WTH-1 Whitworth: 4/6/4 movement, 2 LRM-10s, 1 ton ammo each (RT, LT) 3 Med Lasers (H, RA, LA), 10 heat sinks and 8 tons armor. No hand actuators. Fluff from the 3025 Tech readout says they're common in Davion and Kurita forces. That just leaves whatever surprises John Deere has waiting in the wings... Edit - Question? Captain Carlson's group, the one on shore leave and taking advantage of the free metalworking shop offer John Deere's giving? Is that supposed to be Grayson Carlyle?
*waves* I'll be in the garrison if you want. Every good garrison, even on a backwater, needs a tech-head (And my Battletech RPG GM would tell you, that's probably me, since he's given up checking the rules most of the time when he can simply ask and I can probably quote either the rule or the page number. Thanks MJ and co for that ability )
Hmm, JD's not going to have much at the factory in terms of defense, unless they've secreted a few units from the Cache, no more than two or three though. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a Highlander in John Deere Green pull a surprise Burial at a suitably epic moment.
Your Mech component was already answered. And from this, I can customize the 'real' Pirate forces, as a counter balance to the Irian Mercs and Garrison. ;7 Don't worry, I'll have all the players in play at their proper times.
And I said I was going to deal with Barricade spreading falsehoods when I got back from work, so I will. THAT'S MORE THAN TEN LIES. LB-X rounds are not magically capable of teleporting past ferro-aluminium to chew up control surfaces. They are used as AA weapons because they get flak bonuses to hit and for basically no other reason, and with ASFs failing pilot rolls from taking fire on a strafing run are very dangerous. Also, because they have extra TAC chances against anything. Good job at missing the point. The (improved) Heavy Gauss is the single most inefficient weapons system in existence. Doubling the gauss rifle's projectile mass with roughly the same velocity for a ~50% increase in damage. It failed because it wasn't a terribly good weapon idea, taking away the advantage of the gauss rifle (an extremely long-range headcapper) to allow it to perform like 1.5 LBX-10s. Which you could get, quite easily, for the weight of a SBGauss, since gauss rifles mass more than standard AC/20s.
From glancing over the latest bout of 'discussion' between MJ and everyone else: Shouldn't this be useless clutter in the tech topic thread ? OTOH it's not like any discussion involving MJ will ever reach an agreement except "Oh screw this, I'm outta here" so maybe there should just be new thread labeled "Endless rants by MJ" just for him and whoever feels like argueing with a particular hostile wall. --------------------------- Jon Berry: Good looking. Don't see a mention of the Helm militia being aware that they're bought off (or maybe no one told the Orion driver). Intentional to further stir the clusterfuck ?
It's MJ. He ignores anything that he doesn't like. He the one that be stopping any progress on the story for most of the time I've been a member of the Forums.
