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B5 fleet numbers

Discussion in 'Space Battles' started by Tiara, May 5, 2005.

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  1. Tiara

    Tiara ლ(◕‿‿◕ლ)

    Ok, I've heard people claim that the EA has thousands of ships. Now, in 'And now for a word' (season 2 ep), ISN states that the EA has 14 systems under it's control. So, if the claims of thousands of ships is correct, it would mean that each system would have up to a thousand ships in it. Unless they constantly have over half their fleet outside their systems, which still puts each system flooded with a few hundred ships.

    This makes no sense since we never see any such amount of ships anywhere. If this were actually the case, Sheridan and his friends wouldn't have even be able to dent the EA forces.

    Either the fleet numbers include fighters, support and repair ships, other small craft or it is simply wrong.

    Next issue;

    There also have been claims of thousands of ships in the assault fleet against the Narn Homeworld. Yet, when we hear Refa and Londo talk, Refa says;

    "We have a dozen of our largest battleships waiting in hyperspace, ready to strike." - Refa

    Now, unless I've landed in some sort of alternate dimension where math has become retarded, a dozen != thousands.

    Any reasonable explaination without resorting to books and other secondary canon (and thus discarding evidence we see and hear onscreen)?
     
  2. Nonite

    Nonite Perä-Amilaari

    I'm thinking those BB's are the ones with the mass drivers. I assume they count smaller destroyer sized ships, and fighters doing picket duty.

    As for Sherrypie & co faring well against Clark, I'm thinking plenty of ships sided against Clark/went neutral.
     
  3. Tiara

    Tiara ლ(◕‿‿◕ლ)

    Well, we barely saw any support ships for the larger BBs. Unless all smaller ships moved to the other side of the planet, thus leaving 5-6 of the BBs we see unprotected, I find it hard to believe that the fleets was even in the hundreds. I can see up to a hundred ships, of which 12 BBs and the rest smaller ships (not counting fighters). But to go any higher, as frequently claimed, is simply unsupported by onscreen evidence.

    As Sheridan going against Clark, you have a point. But even then, thousands of ships simply doesn't hold up if the EA only has 14 systems.
     
  4. Clerik

    Clerik Tetragrammaton

    From watching B5, I get the idea that 6-12 capital ships + support/fighters is a decent sized fleet for strikes during war-time, for example:
    - the narn attack which was ambushed by shadows.
    - the defence forces of proxima 3

    However, fleets can grow up to several dozens (~50) when its a very important battle, like:
    - the centauri assault on the narn homeworld
    - season 5, the narn/drazi assault on centauri prime
    - EA's second attack against the minbari which was meant to decisively end the conflict (they sent 40 ships to a base defended by 12 sharlins.. hahahah)

    However in peacetime, one capital ship is considered quite a presence. So we can see that Babylon 5 fleet sizes are pretty small... with fleets staying well under 100 ships (unless its some uber huge battle, like the conclusion of the shadow-war at Coriana 6)

    Considering such small fleet sizes, one would assume fleet sizes of thousands of capital ships is wrong. But then we have another good argument:

    http://www.b5tech.com/science/misc/fleetsize/earthfleetsize.html

    So basically yes they have ships in the thousands, but "ship" means anything that is not a fighter. So corvettes, support vessels, etc...
     
  5. Tiara

    Tiara ლ(◕‿‿◕ლ)

    B5Tech isn't exactly the best source for this kind of thing...

    Which is total bullshit. Registration numbers mean exactly dick when it comes to the total fleet numbers.

    For one, it could mean the number of ships that have been in service since the beginning of the Earth Alliance. Perhaps the first 10,000 ships have already been retired and scuttled for all we know.

    Second, we don't know if those numbers are limited to starships only. They could also include military transport ship, fighters and other support vessels.

    In short, that theory is bogus.
     
  6. Clerik

    Clerik Tetragrammaton

    Yeah... Personally JUST from mwatching the show I would say the EA has around 400 capital ships, with 200 of them being Omega class.

    Which means that we'll have to disregard the novel which said that 212 omegas were destroyed in ACTA. If it actually said that... because from watching the movie, the novel seems wrong.
     
  7. Zarathos

    Zarathos Coat of Arms: Jastrzebiec

    I was always under impression, that Earth has ~1000 warships (bigger then fighters) in this number also Omega/Nova/Warlock class. Why? Mostly because of A Call to Arms.

    ~200 destroyers were killed in tha battle against Drakh, but that was said by reporter in a novel.

    We can see, that quite big part of EA fleet were not destroyers (Omega/Warlocks), but smaller ships like Hyperion and Olympus.

    Even more: after Sheridan arrived, there was a fleet visible. I've counted 35 ships, probably Omegas and/or Novas. 35 destroyers after mobilization. And after time that allowed Drazi, Brakiri, Vree and Minbari to gather their fleets and sent them to Earth.

    Sure, some ships were still arriving: some were at long range missions or in dock doing repairs etc. But the main fleet counted 35 destroyers and some light ships.

    That will agree with numbers of EA ship on Mars orbit to stop Sheridan combined fleet, ships blocking Proxima or sent to retake B5.

    Never more the 10 on small or more then 50 on big actions.

    Count to it cargo and repair ships plus small gunboats etc and you will have ~300 - 500 ships in EA totally. Not 500-1500 Omegas, but the size of EA force in full size without fighters.

    And it will be more the enough to control 14 systems. ~35 ships per system - just as many were protecting Earth against Sheridan.

    Other races:
    Centauri have 12 big battleships and probably ~50 smaller, plus support ships like Vorchans (2-5 per battleship) plus some cargo etc. That gives 100-300 warships plus support ship.

    About Minbari, we dont know how much, but if I good remember 600 Sharlins on the Line + some protecting Minbari worlds.

    In Into the Fire there was fleet from LONAW + WS + 2/3 of Minbari fleet (religious + worker cast).
    It counted 10.000 ships from over 2 dozen races (from 25 to 35 races - more then 2 less then 3 dozens).
    It means 280 to 400 ships per race. If those races have sent about 1/2 of their ships, it will mean, that each race has ~ 360 to 800 ships. Also fitting to EA numbers.

    So - I dont see any reason for those thousand ships. Even one thousand will be much for a race with 14 systems (70 ships per system).

    I'm not saying, that EA cannot build more - in wartime, when more ships are needed, yes, why not.
    One is destroyed, you need two or three to replace it (inexperienced crews etc).
    But in peace times? No, never thousands.
     
  8. Tiara

    Tiara ლ(◕‿‿◕ლ)

    Seems far more reasonable then the thousands that some people claim.

    I can also agree with this. It is simply an impossible task to have such a large standing army during years of peace time.
     
  9. Smugs

    Smugs Time Lord Incarnate

    Watching the first ep of Crusade where they jump in to Earth space after the battle has finished you can seen plenty of space debris to support the 200 ships lost theroy.
     
  10. Zarathos

    Zarathos Coat of Arms: Jastrzebiec

    There were ships from at least 4 LONAW races plus Drakh plus White Star fleet.
     
  11. Smugs

    Smugs Time Lord Incarnate

    The ITB novel states the Earth fleet at 50,000 capital ships, which would inc Novas, Hyperions and Olympus corvettes I am sure the ITB novel is considered cannon as said so by JMS which would mean EA DID have a massive fleet. Now that was just before the Minbari war where EF a lot of its ships but after rebuilding the 20,000 mark B5tech states is not far fetched.
     
  12. The Movie said we lost 200 Omegas. The Fleet that got to earth was only there for 5 hours.
     
  13. Spartan303

    Spartan303 In Captain America We Trust! Super Awesome Happy Fun Time

    after factoring Warlocks, Omegas, Hyperions, Novas and Olympuses Wasn't a good majority of the remaing fleet supposed to be tenders, mobile drydocks, troop transports, ect?
     
  14. Tiara

    Tiara ლ(◕‿‿◕ლ)

    That would seem to be the case. It is simply impossible to sustain such a large fleet of capital ships without ruining the economy or applying a militaristic regime and disallow free markets.

    The EA can't possible have enough materials and manpower to support a fleet of tens of thousands of large ships if they only control 14 systems.
     
  15. Capital-Sized Vessels of the Earth Alliance:
    Explorer-class Survey Ship
    Posiedon-class Supercarrier (Alpha-Gamma)
    Tantalus-class Assault Transport
    Victory-class Destroyer
    Warlock-class Destroyer
    Omega-class Destroyer (Alpha-Gamma, Epsilon)
    Nova-class Dreadnought (Alpha-Delta)
    Hyperion-class Heavy Cruiser (Alpha-Lambda)
    Hecate-class Testbed Cruiser (Alpha-Beta)
    Avenger-class Carrier (Gamma)
    Apollo-class Bombardment Cruiser
    Sagittarius-class Missile Cruiser
    Orestes-class System Monitor (Alpha-Epsilon)
    Cotton-class Fleet Tender
    Delphi-class Scout Cruiser
    Oracle-class Scout Cruiser (Alpha-Delta)

    Heavy Combat Vessels of the Earth Alliance
    Hermes-class Priority Transport
    Artemis-class Heavy Frigate (Alpha-Zeta)
    Olympus-class Corvette (Alpha-Delta)

    Medium Combat Vessels of the Earth Alliance
    Tethys-class Cutter (Alpha-Kappa)
    Laertes-class Police Corvette (Alpha-Epsilon)
    Condor-class Troop Transport (Alpha-Gamma)
    Perseus-class Minesweeper (Alpha-Beta)

    Light Combat Vessels of the Earth Alliance
    Myrmidon-class Light Combat Vessel



    The simple answer is that the scope changed durring production. Originally, B5 was about 3 miles. Originally, the scope involved only a very small part of the spiral arm. But in season three and onward, we have fleets in the thousands+, the Centauri being promised 1/5th of the Galaxy, the Whitestar searching the galaxy for the First Ones, etc. Newer canon overrides older canon. It was a budget issue.
     
  16. The Earth Alliance has 14 Colonies. Meaning full voting rights. They have tons of bases and undeveloped systems. I refer you to this short list of known systems. The Earth Alliance also has a number of other inhospitable planets within it's domanin. http://www.b5tech.com/earthalliance/earthxenohistory/earthhistory/earthcolonies.htm

    You also overestimate the inefficiencies inherent in Starship construction. There is more than enough raw material to build such fleets.
     
  17. Tiara

    Tiara ლ(◕‿‿◕ლ)

    Hmm, do you have any links to where I can see all those ships? Because if there are also smaller ships in the capital sized ships list, I can see hwere the thousands of ships are coming from. If that list is organized on size and strength and the Hyperion is pretty high up there, it is very reasonable to have thousands of ships actually.

    I always had the impression that the ships used were Omegas, Novas, Hyperions and Olympus mainly. But if it is the case that there are also many more smaller ship classes, I can cxertainly see where you are coming from with that number.

    Interesting :)
     
  18. Sorry, its all in print. If you want detail on any class in particular, ask. The Parenthesis represent known, published Class Variants (like the difference between the normal Omega-Alpha and the Gamma Command Destroyer, or the huge number of Hyperion variants).
     
  19. Jim3001

    Jim3001 Master Of Hammer Space

    If the 20,000 is what they had then it would be safe to assume that 1000-5000 of those could have been Omega's. Given what it take to run a fleet you could say that 10,000 of those ships were support ships of various kinds and the renaming 5,000 to be Hyperions cruisers, Nova Dreadnaughts and Olympus corvettes.

    And some of these ship have been around for 20 years (Olympus class). Its not inconceivable theat they had more at on point.
     
  20. Tiara

    Tiara ლ(◕‿‿◕ლ)

    I'm particularly interested in the Hecate to Oracle class ships. But I guess thats a bit much. Could you give some rough numbers such as size and weaponry? I don't need detailed specs, just some rough info. If possible.
     
  21. Nonite

    Nonite Perä-Amilaari

    Question, how long after the Dilgar war did the Minbari war start? Was the EA still in war strength?
     
  22. Jim3001

    Jim3001 Master Of Hammer Space

    The Diglar were defeated in 2232 and the Mimbari war started in 2245.
     
  23. The EA's generally always been in war strength. The Dilgar War started in February 15, 2228, with the invasion of Alaca IV. The EA intervened with the Earth Expeditionary Force under Admiral Hamato in early 2232, after the Dilgar invasion of Markab. At the end of that year, Earth had liberated the entirety of the League and rolled the Dilgar back to Omelos, where their sun went supernova in 2235.

    The Earth-Minbari War started in 2242.
     
  24. Zarathos

    Zarathos Coat of Arms: Jastrzebiec

    Well, if one counts books and RPG to it, then there is no need to speculate I think.

    But they are contradicting series and movies, so we must decide which one we use. I never (at least in my ff's) were using books (even if I knew this or that from them) and used movie numbers: ~500-1000 ships (warships + cargo support that can be used durring long battles) per race (exception are FO's).

    But with books, we have 20.000 ships for EA, sure, why not. Not to logical or economic, but I 'm not creator or owner of B5
     
  25. Sayorin

    Sayorin Have you seen my marbles?


    That list seems not to be organized by strength but instead by size. The explorer is the largest ship in the EA fleet but they only have six of them. They were deemed too expensive to produce more of. Explorers also aren't warships. The Posseidon Supercarrier would be bigger than a Victory or Omega but it's lightly armed relative to it's size as it's a carrier, not a front line ship. So yeah, that list is apparently in order of largest to smallest.
     
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