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Borg vs. Atlantis

Discussion in 'Vs. Debates' started by Mith, Jun 11, 2009.

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  1. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

    The Borg discover Atlantis via a quantum singularity much like they did with 8472. They target Atlantis and arrive over it. The cube is able to scan the ship, but Atlantis puts up its shields before it can beam a drone down to investigate. If the borg are defeated, they decide to send more cubes, thus giving us these four scenarios

    1 cube vs. Atlantis
    10 cubes vs. Atlantis
    100 cubes Vs. Atlantis & Earth's fleet
    1,000 cubes vs. Atlantis, Earth, and fleet (ie, this is when Atlantis has returned home at the end of the last Season)

    After each battle, it's assumed there will be enough time for the SGA team to repair any damage.
     
  2. mackon

    mackon Missing & Presumed Dead Subscriber

    Should think that a fully stocked & competently crewed Atlantis could take any number of Borg Cubes in the first Attack. Certainly the 1,10 and 100 Cube scenarios. Ancient Drones are just that good and Ancient shield well up to the task.

    On the other hand they have no hope of surviving wave attacks or siege.

    The Borg will adapt and despite how uber advanced and alien Ancient tech is to them it shouldn't take them more than four or five encounters before the Borg get it together.

    Of course then the Replicators kill them all but that's another story.
     
  3. Minor WMD +2

    Minor WMD +2 SelfPreservingSuicideUnit

    Atlantis and Earth will run out of drones, ZPM, and asgard power sources before the borg even run out of ships. The number of Borg cubes makes the wraith's number seem tiny in comparison.
     
  4. Daniel2112

    Daniel2112 You Poor Fucking Humans

    You wanna make this really interesting, make it Rifts Atlantis. :drevil:
     
  5. SpartanElite

    SpartanElite Jot Coterie Abomination

    I don't see how the Borg can make it through Atlantis's shield, assuming this ZPM isn't severely depleted.

    Ignoring all the "planet destroying" and "solar system damaging" statements on ZPMs (because I said so), we know that a ZPM can push an Aurora-class Battleship so close to light speed that time dilation made only a few years pass relative to the crew of the Tria while over ten thousand years passed for outside observers.

    Taking McKay's initial speed guess of point-nine-nine-nine light speed (which doesn't work with the whole "only a few years passed for them" thing), we could calculate how much energy a ZPM can generate without depleting itself.

    First we'd need to find out the mass of an Aurora, which would also require us to find the volume. Unfortunately, there is no consistency on this matter; Auroras jump from twice the size of the Daedalus to about half the size of a Hive ship, and The Battle Of Asuras had Auroras being roughly the same size as a Hive ship and the D.

    So I'm just going to assume an Aurora is like a cylinder with a diameter of 400 meters and a height of 1800 meters (because the scale of 2:9 for the height/depth : length seems to fit) and a density of roughly half that of water or 500 kilograms per m^3.

    Anyway, figure comes out to ~2.26e8 cubic meters. Mass is thus ~1.13e11 kg.

    As for the relativistic KE formula for those who don't know; Atomic Rockets:

    KE = ((1/sqrt(1 - (V2/C2))) - 1) * M * C2

    I'm to lazy to write out me applying the numbers in the formula instead of on my calculator (so I'll probably do it tomorrow because rules probably require it) because I'm seriously confused of tired being right now but the joules the engines can generate are ~2.2e29J which is around 52 trillion megatons 52 exatons, enough energy to vaporize all the oceans of Earth fifty times over, etc. This is probably a terrible way to gauge ship energy/power generation (especially for a different thing like shielding) though but I'll go with it and take the "you're a stupid head" tomorrow or whenever I come back.

    Anyway, the Borg throw around megatons, right? Assuming 1000 Borg ships throwing around 500 MT/s (IIRC, this figure is generally excepted for the Borg) 3 years and 122 days of non-stop bombardment to take down Atlantis's shields.

    These figures are probably wrong. Not feeling correct as of the moment, you know?



    EDIT: Holy snap I just realized SD.net has a relativistic calculator on its tools sections. I'm right with the joules. I should probably get some sleep.
     
  6. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

    Wait, what? Just because it can pump that much into something that's meant to push the ship at FTL speeds, doesn't mean that the shields can hold out that long.



    High megatons at least. Possibly gigatons. As in they can drain the shield of the E-D with four shots in their first encounter. Their ships are literally seen taking down most ships in about that range too, about 2-5 shots varying on the ship.


    Wait, what? No. The ZPM might be able to generate a ton of power, but it can't do that into its shields all at once. Otherwise a fleet of Wraith would have been laughable. 100 cubes firing at it at once is going to be a mixture of lasers, anti-shield weapons, and possibly even Borg torpedoes. Of course, if Borg torpedoes are capable of being able to damage other cubes, then that would suggest they'd at least need GT level firepower, as the beam tossed at the cube in BoBW was at least about 85.4 gigatons and they actually laughed that off before rushing off to rape 39 more starships.

    Chances are, the Borg weapons can probably reach up into the low gigatons, probably likely to be in the double gigatons in all likelyhood.

    Yeah...I really doubt the ZPMs can toss that much energy into shielding. If they did, they could literally bounce off a planet.
     
  7. I can't remember where I read this, but it was mentioned somewhere on Spacebattles that when Ancient shields have full power, they're essentially invulnerable. Essentially they can't be worn down.
     
  8. l33telboi

    l33telboi Local Rocket Surgeon

    Spartan, I'm getting 2e32J when using the SDN calculator, it's going to be a little off due to using 3e8m/s for lightspeed, but I'm wondering what fraction of c you were using and what mass for the ship.

    EDIT: Nevermind, didn't see the figures in your post at first.
     
  9. Leo1

    Leo1 Vicious Attack Dog Subscriber

    Well, in a rational universe the limiting factor would be the capacity of the shield system to dump heat, as opposed to some nonsensical "our ZPM is getting drained by being fired upon" - for some reason sci-fi writers all think that a shield needs to perform work when it's struck by a weapon, just because.
     
  10. Major Diarrhia

    Major Diarrhia Concept Philosopher

    With a magnet, if something is strong enough to overcome its force more energy would be needed for a stronger repelling force. But by that analogy a shield should drain most of its power when on, with hits just being spikes in wattage.
     
  11. Sayle

    Sayle Atalantë

    There was quite a good comparison with Atlantis and Asgard shields I read a while back. Atlantis and Asgard shields both raise at full power. As Asgard shields are depleted they are recharged at a set rate - like one gallon of water from the generators into a thousand gallon container every second/minute or whatever.

    On the other hand the shield on Atlantis is like a million gallon container being instantly filled from the ZPM when it falls below 'full'. That was how it was for the whole series, except the finale, which, lets be honest, was an embarassment. I mean, honestly, they couldn't even finish the CGI in time.
     
  12. zzz

    zzz Fuckin' Lurker

    Remember how throughout the entire series the shields only directly defend against one wraith ship at a time? Even fully powered they sunk the city and abandoned it even though they still had drones left to fire.

    One Cube; they'll fuck up it's day. Ten or more; not likely.

    Drones are amazing weapons, swiss-cheese a ship. Great, but everything's decentralized in a Cube. Poking holes in a ship and blowing up does fuck all when you have to hit so many targets to bring it down, multiply that by ten or more before they adapt when we've only really seen the Atlantis crew show meaningful control of 5 drones at a time; they wouldn't be able to keep up.
     
  13. Sayle

    Sayle Atalantë

    No, Atlantis' shields held against...what, five hives and a crapload of cuisers all firing during the start of the second season. They said the ZPM had enough power to maintain the shield for three days under that kind of bombardment.
     
  14. Perhaps the shields do work to reflect the offending energy, so they have to provide enough to get it out of the way. So it isn't about dumping heat because it never holds it in the first place.

    Or something, trying to rationalise writer stupidity is hard.
     
  15. l33telboi

    l33telboi Local Rocket Surgeon

    "Writer stupidity"?

    No. They call the genre science fiction for a reason, and inventing strange tech in science fiction is part of the game. Stupid would be when someone tunes in to a show that says it's all about science fiction and then being surprised when they encounter fiction.
     
  16. So science fiction is a way of saying "totally ignores all the most simple and fundamental laws of physics, like conservation of energy"? That IS what you are saying.

    The fact the the ship is using energy against incoming energy means the ship ends up holding twice the original attack, probably in heat. That will cause problems, the writers clearly did not think that one through, otherwise they would have come up with a more intelligent solution.

    Things like FTL I can get, their kind of important, but forgetting the second law of thermodynamics and then claiming it is just a story is simply stupid, it is EASY to fix if you actually think about it for two or maybe three seconds. Shield depletion is a variation on the ticking timer trope, nothing else.
     
  17. l33telboi

    l33telboi Local Rocket Surgeon

    Yes, sometimes science fiction ignores things like the limits of the speed of light (you can't get any more basic then this, and yet, it's viloated in almost all science fiction), sometimes they ignore conservation of energy and sometimes you're faced with a verse that's all about steamships sailing through space.

    And guess what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Because it's science fiction. There's no arbitrary line that goes "oh well, that's acceptable but this isn't". There's nothing that says 'these rules have to be obayed in Sci-Fi and these don't'. Quite frankly I'm glad for it, because hard sci-fi is just about as fucking boring as you can get.

    That's also probably where there really isn't any hard sci-fi around.

    Or they thought it through, decided they couldn't care less, and handwaved the problem away.

    Yeah, because that whole speed of light thing isn't all that important when it comes to science. You can totally handwave it away. No biggie at all. But the laws of thermodynamics OHMYGODWE'REABOUTODIE!!1
     
  18. The speed of light might need to be breached for plot reasons, this is acceptable. Ignoring physics simply for the sake of having a contrived ticking timer is stupid, nothing more, nothing less.

    It takes basically zero effort to pay attention to physics when you don't specifically need to break it. Using such a system that is so clearly and so obviously in breach of the laws of physics because of did not do the research/did not care is just lazy, or stupid.

    Things should try to do the least amount of physics rape possible, its just good manners. If you need to break physics for the benefit of the story, go ahead. If your breaking physics simply because your a lazy twat who wants to have some twisted form of ticking timer drama, then your just that. A lazy twat.

    There is a lot you can get away with using reasonable extrapolations of the laws of physics, matter annihilation power sources and kinetic kill vehicles make for plenty of explody. There is no need to offend ole' lord Kelvin.

    Which is, as I already pointed out, lazy.

    You seem to be advocating that Sci-Fi is better if it disregards physics, which doesn't make much sense. I'm saying Sci-Fi should pay attention to physics when it doesn't get in the way of the story, which makes sense, or at least, more sense.
     
  19. Q99

    Q99

    Honestly much easier to tackle- while they are on the ground incredibly deadly, they are not so able to deal with a foe in space. Rifts ground capabilities don't scale up well to space combat.

    Good point.
     
  20. SpartanElite

    SpartanElite Jot Coterie Abomination

    Those are its sub-light engines. It's hyper drive was heavily damaged then burnt out.

    It wouldn't have to generate 2.2e29w; it'd just need to generate something in the e19-e22 range to keep Atlantis safe (assuming GT/s and adjusting for the ship numbers).

    Which all things considering, this isn't unreasonable in the slightest; even when Earth had multiple Mk. IXs they needed to consult with the Atlantis team to figure out the best way to get a nuke inside the shield when the Replicators took it over, presumably because the shield was so powerful.

    I also didn't mean they'd generate ET/s, which is also why I said energy a ZPM can generate before being depleted, conservatively, instead of energy per second. Admittedly, the ZPM wasn't depleted in the slightest and was later used on either Atlantis, The Odyssey or the Ancient outpost in Antarctica.

    We also know that Atlantis can take roughly 2% of a ZPM's energy per second from the episode with the universe destroying infinite energy reactor with alt McKay.

    It's generally excepted that the Wraith have two firing modes; fast moving shield draining technobabble and slow giant bolts that are more DET in nature. The Wraith only use the small fast moving technobabble bolts on Atlantis, and even then it was something like 11 Hive ships and the Cruiser escorts of fifteen Hive ships (or just over fifty ships), IIRC.

    Ignoring that, Wraith Hive ships, when powered up, have reactors powerful enough to completely vaporize themselves (which are 11 kilometers in length) and everything within 15 miles of the ship, whilst their hulls are shown to be undamaged by nukes that are quite possibly in the gigaton range (going off of stated yields for other nukes and ignoring Mk IXs(which are the high GT/double digit TT nukes) on the basis that they weren't used). The only times these explosions are shown are when Hives are either fighting, powering weapons or hyper drive; we've seen Hives that are underpowered/unpowered not undergo these effects as well as Hives who get surprise attacks on them not have the same effects either when destroyed (and Hives in the same episode, when being destroyed while powered up having the same "vaporize ship" effects (though admittedly one of them have another ship slam into it).

    At least as far as I can remember. If someone had a situation where they weren't powered / powering down / powering up and still did the bright blue flashing explosion, though, it'd probably help to point it out.

    All-righty then.

    Whilst not a planet, a fully powered Atlantis, in the past, was able to take a planet destroying CME whilst stretching its shields far past its usual limit, thinning the shield(from a few kilometers to nearly an entire half of a planet). Every part of the planet that wasn't protected had a mass-extinction level event.

    The Daedalus with a ZPM also deflected a planet CME in that episode; unfortunately the dialog and visuals are hilariously inconsistent, with the visuals showing a sun with a diameter roughly a dozen or so kilometers, based off of the plasma streaming hitting the Daedalus and how big of a spot on the sun it is and assuming that the stream didn't expand (which would make the sun smaller), where as the dialog pretty accurately described a CME and them having to basically go inside of the sun for their plan of deflecting it to work (due to how a CME works).
     
  21. l33telboi

    l33telboi Local Rocket Surgeon

    No, it's exactly the same. The speed of light is breached because that's required by the plot, it's part of the fiction, part of the story, and part of the setting. Exact same thing holds true for how the shields work, it's part of the fiction, part of the story, and part of the setting.

    The only difference between the two is that you like one, but not the other, and now you're trying to peg one as 'stupid' because you want your opinion to be more then just an opinion. Fact of the matter is that in terms of which is a bigger problem when it comes to science, breaking the speed of light is just about the biggest crime there is. Having a shield work by draining the power source behind it is peanuts compared to it, and this whole mega-problem you seem to have made out of it is quite frankly a little unreal.

    Bottom line: Stargate never claimed to be hard sci-fi. Thus, when you encounter something that’s not hard sci-fi, it’d be stupid to act so surprised. I bet you're the kind of guy that calls a milk carton 'stupid' because it contains milk rather then coffee and then tries to come up with some reason why milk cartons should contain coffee.

    That’s a completely arbitrary rule. Science fiction should strive to make good stories, and the setting they build is entirely in their own hands, there are no ‘rules’, that’s just shit you’ve made up. And if the plot requires physics rape then that's a-ok.

    “If you’re breaking physics simply because you’re a lazy twat who wants to have a spaceship go from one star system to another in five minutes, then you’re just that.”

    To me it kinda does, because I find hard sci-fi to be pretty damn boring in comparison to the standard space opera settings. And the best thing is – I don’t have a problem with stating that this is my opinion.

    In this case it kinda would get in the way of the story. Ever noticed that the more you define something, the less you can actually do with it?

    In any case, that's enough of that, this thread isn't about how hard sci-fi should be.
     
  22. Do the Borg have to Brute force Atlantis shields? Didn't they use a Tractor Beam or something to overcome the Enterprise's shields in the first and second encounter?
     
  23. Nighthawk19

    Nighthawk19 Bemlayze is pleased

    Then in "Q Who?" used a "Laser-like device" to cut a hole in her hull, and sucked like 3 decks out into space.

    Honestly, I have no damn idea what kind of shields they used, but I'm open to hear it.

    All I remember seeing about Borg shields are that their personal ones...have some issues because I'm not going to start another "Bullets vs. Phasors on Borg" flame war.
     
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