And Subliming also make people indifferent to the wider universe. And no longer part of the Culture in any meaningful sense. That's not really a victory tactic, and we're utterly uninformed on what the capabilities and limitations of the Sublimed actually are. Not that they should need that, beyond nebulous notions of the Flood's eternal nature there hasn't been any indication of what they could actually do to impact the material world that would be competitive with the Culture.
That's not entirely accurate. The Chelgrian-Puen are Sublimed, yet still involved in the affairs of their non-sublimed kin, the Chelgrians.
I don't think anything was mentioned of them other than the fact that they exist, they are sublimed, and they don't like the Culture.
Again, what does all this have to do with anything? I specifically accepted that the gravemind/primordial may be some super divine/ascended and unkilable being, but it has nothing to with with the flood physical manifestation, other than being able to control it when it gets big enough. In other words, either show me an example where the gravemind wished the flood int existence or cut the bullshit. Ofcourse people seem stupid when they dont take the shit you make up at face value. The flood is the gravemind the same way a UAV is the guy remote controlling the UAV. Bullshit. Or at best fanon. There's nothing neither in what i've read/played in halo, nor in what you said to even imply that the gravemind/primordial can will the flood into existence rather than having to use relatively conventional methods. Otherwise what would've been the problem with just floodifying everyone in the galaxy by magic gravemind powers? For that matter, even if your theory was correct, its still irrelevant, since it only changes the floods origin from "magic zombies from somewhere" to "magic zombies? a wizard did it", while doing nothing to neither change, nor explain the various magical properties of the flood (other than an invisible magician is doing it, if one considers that an explanation). Also, since as you say the primordials supposedly defies physical reality (which is nonsense hype in itself, most of what we see defies our reality anyway, saying it defies theirs just means the person saying it isnt advanced enough), the flood being engineered to be magical is just as likely, probably more so, than some ghost consciousness creating magical effect over the entire galaxy, while, say, being unable to escape himself, by using his supposed "one with the flood" powers to floodify and control his captors.
Wasn't there somewhere in the books a mention of the peaceful animals on some gas giant or another? That were looked after by one or more sublimed and anyone threatening the animals would go away, on a species level?
And they're a record breaking anomaly specifically because of this. The Sublimed are almost never as involved as the Chelgrian-Puen are, and in this case I'll note it doesn't extend to physical aid or stopping the Culture from inciting a civil war among them. Beyond that, we know that individuals and small groups from within the Culture Subliming is a not uncommon thing, and none of those beings have stuck around to help or rendered assistance as far as we know, including the Idiran situation or the Excession. There's not reason to factor them into this debate, or indeed any vs debate with the Culture. No. Why should we? There's no real connection or line of assistance, and whatever the Sublimed are they appear to be in considerable discontinuity with their former selves. Unless it's a scenario involving the whole setting they're not involved.
Fair enough, though I'm wondering how the Flood would be able to harm the Culture even with the Gravemind's weird dimensional stuff.
same way they got pre-historic humanity... make them think that the flood is a nifty genetic novelty. ("Gives you some awesomely soft orgasm on contact hair!" don't tell me that wouldn't appeal to the ultra-hedonistic culture.)
No limits fallacy there bub. Remember, the flood were literally testing the ancient humans and forerunners, we've no idea what their max abilities are. Considering they are weapons of the precursors, who have demonstrated greater feats than the culture in the few areas we've seen them in, their max is probably much higher than you think. Since we don't really know enough about said max abilities, we should probably just call it quits and agree that the culture stomps the forerunners and the flood at the levels we've seen them.
Agreed. I didn't know there was an alternative type of evidence to judge vs debates on other than demonstrated feats.
Most vs. debates don't involve factions that almost literally come with canonical difficulty settings as the Flood apparently do. And there is some slight evidence supporting the theory that Non-Restrained Flood may be at or above Culture level. That evidence being their currently unclear relation to the precursors, who have demonstrated several feats superior to those of the Culture.
Never said they could Mr. Reading Comprehension. I said they MAY be capable of Culture-level feats due to: A: I said that we know they intentionally go easy on other species to "test" them, so we've never seen them at their max. B: They are related to the Precursors, a species that HAS demonstrated several feats above that of the Culture, in an unknown way. The Primordial claims that the Flood and Precursors are the same. So either the Flood REALLY, REALLY just don't give a damn or the Primordial left a few details out or was just BSing as is his usual MO. C: Thus, we have no idea if the Flood has access to more powerful Precursor tech that they could pull out if they actually decided to stop testing people. Tech that could reasonably put them at or perhaps even above Culture level due to the examples of Precursor tech seen thus far. Notice I said literally two posts above the one you refer to that we should just agree The Culture stomps the Flood that we've seen and leave it there. We don't know enough about the Precursor's themselves or the Flood's relationship to them for a definitive answer.
Thus your comment is completely useless since we do not have definitive proof. There is no evidence that they can scale up to Culture levels at this point. And how was my comment a no-limits-fallacy? It would be pretty simple for a Mind to notice a spreading infection from some unknown dust and put a stop to the Flood's plans. And we have almost no Precursor feats, apart from them apparently building 'bridges between stars' (engineering feats which the Culture can easily match in Orbital construction etc.), and the fact that their building material is supposedly indestructible (whereas it's also specifically stated that, short of plunging itself into a black hole or white hole, there is no natural force that can harm a Culture ship).
This is the 3rd damn time I've stated it was nothing more than speculation and we can't prove anything definitively and should put it to rest. Stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Uh huh, as I've stated multiple times. What are the specs for the most impressive Orbital we've seen? I've never heard of one that literally connects star systems, correct me if I'm wrong. There is no force, natural or artificial, period, that can harm Precursor structures, except for the Halo's fire, which itself is based on Precursor tech, and thus presumably the Precursor's own weapons which run on technobabble as opposed to firepower. Out of curiosity does this immunity to "natural" damage extend to all Culture structures or only their ships? So.... those feats put the Precursors on par with the Culture at least, above the Culture by an unknown amount at best. In other words IF (MY OWN SPECULATION HERE, don't you dare make the Nth comment about how useless it is!) the Flood have access to such Precursor tech, and decided to use it, they MAY be on par with or above the Culture, since they are screwed otherwise. In other words you just helped me reaffirm everything I've said for the last three posts. This is without a doubt the most circular argument I've ever been in. EDIT: The culture can't travel intergalactically can they?
Fixed for accuracy. Something may come along in the future that renders this statement incorrect in the Haloverse itself, and I guaranfuckingtee you that it's incorrect for other 'verses. Living Tribunal decides Precursor structures don't exist, they don't and never did, got me? More on-topic, we have no idea how the infinite energy output of Gridfire would interact with Precursor structures, but I'm sure you'll say it won't do a thing and Culture fans will argue otherwise.
10 million kilometers in diameter, 10,000km wide. And that is just one orbital, the Culture has countless Orbitals since they use them in replacement of planets. Also, 'connecting star systems' is pretty vague: how distant are the star systems? No force that the Forerunners know of. So then you can provide quotes of the Presursors fighting entire battle in microseconds across dozens of lightyears while moving at trillions of c? Or casually destroying planets with bombs smaller than you can see? How about Precursor AIs simulating entire universes for fun? You get the idea, but you can check out post 28 for more. They can travel at above 200,000c under normal conditions, so they most certainly can travel intergalactically.
I assumed I wouldn't need to explain that I was only referring to other forces in the Haloverse, as opposed to me including all forces in fiction for no reason. Sorry I wasn't precise enough for ya. Seeing as how we have no idea how Precursor structures are created, we don't know and have no way of knowing how Gridfire or any other omnipotent/infinite whatever would react with them. That includes Living Tribunal. For all we know they may be to Halo what he is to Marvel, that being the Multiverse managing gods. He may be able to snap them out of existence, they may be able to do that to him, they may be incapable of affecting each other, we just DO NOT KNOW. Mother of God, I thought I wouldn't have to micromanage every thought that I communicate for you to get my point. Seems not. 1. We don't have any specific numbers for the distances, but we have no reason to believe they're super close stars just for teh lulz either. Even assuming 1 light year distances between the stars, that's still more than that orbital. 2. No really? I suppose I did miscommunicate this somewhat, I apologize. There is no known force in the Haloverse besides the Precursor's own tech that can harm their structures. 3. For the 50th time, we don't know enough about the precursors for that kind of info. When I said those feats "put them on par or above the culture" I thought it was obvious I only referred to those areas (in this case material strength/construction capability). We know nothing about Precursor combat ability, although I see no reason why it wouldn't be equally impressive. Culture may stomp them, they may stomp Culture, they may be even, they may not be able to interact. We. Do. Not. Know. 4. Mmmkay. Precursor can too to an unknown extent. I honestly don't understand why you're still trying to argue here. I've said over and over that we have no definite way of knowing who would win in a match between Culture and Precursors. You turned a single post containing personal speculation on my part in an already horribly derailed thread into Uber Empire of Pure Wanktonium vs Uber Empire of Infinite Vagueness. What else must I say?
Except the Culture isn't that vague or wanked, they actually do this sort of shit canonically all the time. They don't build massive structures because it isn't interesting. They have access to a literally infinite energy source, stupidly powerful AI, stupidly fast FTL, the biggest things holding them back are the no time travel clause, and their own motivations. Add time travel + competent usage of it to the Culture and they should be up in the same league as Xeelee/Timelord type races.
