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DnD 3.5 Wizards + Maquis vs the UFP

Discussion in 'Vs. Debates' started by SapphireFox, May 6, 2011.

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  1. SapphireFox

    SapphireFox Fuzzy Fuzzball of DOOM! Subscriber

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    100 Wizards manage to foresee the chaos of the 4th ed changeover, most of them escaping from the Forgotten Realms verse. For all of them their magic works perfectly in this new universe.

    After arriving on a world near the Cardassian DMZ and discovering the state of the universe from the Maquis and the other Fed colonists in the DMZ they are shocked to discover what kind of society they have found themselves in. Deciding to help the Maquis and expand their numbers, they begin recruiting new members from the abandoned colonists.

    The more good aligned are doing the recruiting and building/rebuilding within the DMZ. The more aggressive neutral and evil aligned wizards begin striking Cardassian targets.

    This combined with the more conventional strikes from the Maquis eventually causes the Cardassaians to at least temporarily withdraw from the DMZ. The Maqui and Wizards declare the former DMZ is now the Maquis Republic.

    The Federation declares this action of separation and sovereignty to be illegal and moves to bring the Maqius Republic worlds back under Federation control. A state of war is declared by the Maquis Republic.


    The Maquis Republic has at its disposal:
    Troops:
    72 Wizards ready for combat

    238,000 able bodied ground troopers

    125,000 able bodied ship crew

    Ships:
    336 Federation style fighters

    138 Peregrine-class Raiders

    58 large cargo vessels

    2 captured Galor-class cardassian cruisers

    5 Oberth-class ships refit for light combat/patrol duty

    3 Smaller shipyards; 1 recently purchased, 1 on loan from the Klingons, and one they already had.

    3 Independence class ships designed and built by the maqius, roughly equal to a Klingon bird-of-prey. two photon launchers, four Phaser cannons, shields as good as an excelsior-class.

    Through Ferengi intermediaries the Maquis have obtained from the federation mothball and salvage yards.

    8 Miranda-class

    15 Soyuz-class

    7 Constellation-class

    1 refit Constitution-class

    2 Excelsior-class kitbashed together from over a half a dozen hulls. (not overly reliable)

    17 various fuel and cargo ships

    The Maquis Republic is in negotiation with the various Klingon houses for ships and cloaking devises/technology. A working prototype magical invisibility device in under trial, it is expected to be paired with sensor jammers for maximum effect. The Highest level Wizard is 18th level, and there are more than 75 new apprentices being trained at the moment.


    The Federation due to the various commitments on other frontiers and fronts is unlikely to get more than 1/3 to 1/2 of their total forces in subjugating the Maquis Republic. More Federation ships and personnel can be brought to the fight but the frontier areas like the Romulan Neutal Zone will be stripped bare, practically inviting others to take advantage of the situation.
     
  2. Sayle

    Sayle Atalantë

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    Soooo...at low estimates the Federation can throw a few thousand ships at the Maquis?

    Also, the Peregrine IS the Fed attack fighter.
     
  3. John Lemon

    John Lemon

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    Greater Celerity. Time Stop. Locate City Bomb. Greater Teleport.

    Rinse repeat until everybody dies.
     
  4. SapphireFox

    SapphireFox Fuzzy Fuzzball of DOOM! Subscriber

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    I figure high hundreds to low thousands maybe 2000 to 3000 at the very most. Remember this is Mid-TNG/DS9 era not the dominion war when every hull is pulled out of mothballs.
    http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Peregrine_class

    http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_attack_fighter

    Its open to debate at least. If needed I will adjust the class numbers accordingly.
     
  5. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

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    You seem to have a rather rosy view, if not (ironically) fantasy view of how wizards in Realms work. The neutral and evil wizards would not give two shits about the Maquis. That's not how it works. They'd sooner ally themselves with the Federation or the Cardassians before they help the Maquis out.

    Sure, the good ones might stay to help, but it's sorta hard to claim moral high ground when the people fighting for 'their land' were told that when they settled there when it was 'UFP land' that it might become 'Cardassian land' and then decided to wage a war instead of just growing the fuck up and moving somewhere else on what would effectively be a luxury liner sailing the stars to a planet just as good...well, even good wizards would be rolling their eyes at the stupidity. An evil one might zap them for good measure.

    Second, what level? A wizard's power is determined by what spells they know and how many times they can cast them. Sixty second level wizards are not going to make a difference.

    The level of stupidity in this quote is rather astonishing. It's one thing to say that a wizard could turn the tide in battle or even on a planetary basis--but to take on the entire United Federation of Planets? No. Just no.

    The Maquis lasted as long as they did because the UFP and the CU having a strict treaty that limited any warship from entering the DMZ. That was the whole point. The Maquis took advantage of this to use small raiders and fighters to perform terrorist attacks upon the Maquis. The Maquis were an annoyance to the Cardassian government. They were never a match.

    It was only when the Klingons invaded the CU under the influence of the Dominion that the Maquis became a real threat not only due to the strained military of the Cardassians, but due to the assistance given to them by the Klingons (we already know they gave them cloaking technology for their ships).

    Guess what happened the moment a real power, not a diminished one, such as the Dominion came along? It took them I think it was what, three days to reclaim all their territory? And keep in mind the Dominion wasn't entirely focused on them either. They were also beating the Klingons back as well.

    So let's take a look at what you actually gave them, shall we?

    Highest is level 18, right? 75 of them are low-level as you seem to indicate. That leaves 25 high level wizards. Most are probably 10-14 (15), 9 are likely 15-17, and the last is level 18, right?

    Fucked. Utterly and truly fucked. Yeah, they might be able to perform assassinations, infiltrations, and that sort of thing, but at the end of the day, there's only going to be one thing that matters; starships. An 18th level wizard isn't going to be a match for a ship armed with modern day tactical nukes, let alone the firepower Starfleet is going to be packing.

    An epic level wizard, a particularly powerful and clever one might, but to be honest, any wizard of that power isn't going to give two shits about the Maquis for a variety of reasons.

    You do realize that the Cardassian Eleventh Order was a reserve division that composed of old men and walking wounded had over twice this many troops, right (500,000)? Not to mention that when Damar started his little rebellion against Dominion rule over his government, he at one point risked it to bring Gul Revok and Legate Goris to join them since their troops consisted of over half a million men, as well as someone else who had another hundred thousand soldiers.

    Late in the war, after heavy casualties on the Cardassian side (which is why Damar broke away to begin with).

    Oh and Sisko mentioned that millions of men and women were putting their lives on the line against the Dominion every day.

    In short, the Federation is going to crush them troop-wise, even if it ever came down to that (it won't).

    Still horribly small.

    A decent number, but utterly worthless.

    Okay. But again, worthless,

    Kay...

    You do realize how amusingly easy it is for a single Defiant class starship to bitch slap them into next week, right?

    Oberth's, even with military upgrades, were never designed to be warships. They're only slightly more useful than the raiders on the account that they're larger. But that's it.

    Easy pickings for Starfleet.

    [/QUOTE[3 Independence class ships designed and built by the maqius, roughly equal to a Klingon bird-of-prey. two photon launchers, four Phaser cannons, shields as good as an excelsior-class.[/QUOTE]

    Now if only that logic followed that a Klingon BoP was equal to an Excelsior class starship...

    That aside, it'd still get swatted.

    Yeah, because somehow, the Ferengi stole dozens of capital grade warships? Don't give logic for this, you just make it sound stupider.

    [/QUOTE]8 Miranda-class[/QUOTE]

    Even the Galors bitch slapped these ships. And they're still better than the Oberths.

    Which, while not as bad as the Oberths are still worse than the Mirandas.

    Which are again, horribly old and not going to do anything.

    You do realize that the Constitution class was retired because it was too incapable of keeping up with the now nearly century old Excelsior and Miranda class, right?

    The fuck did the Maquis do to you? So not only are the rest of their fleet so laughably old and crippled in terms of weapon design, firepower capabilities, and so forth, but the only ships that would be large enough and powerful enough to put up a fight that wouldn't take less than five seconds for a modern day warship to pimp slap, but you give it two ships that even on a good day, would get its asshole violated, but you made them less than effective in that regard as well.

    At this point, just put really long polls on them and pray that they can ram into the ships and detonate themselves, because that's the best chance they have against a small armada of starships.

    And of course, since Starfleet has, as per WoG, 30,000 ships to begin with and your number is roughly 1/3rd, that's roughly 10,000 ships.

    It's not a really big deal either way since that Maquis "fleet" (a term I use in the widest sense possible) is only going to require a handful of ships. Like four.

    Fuck, I'd bet you that 1 Akira and 2 Defiant would rip apart that entire fleet's asshole without breaking a sweat. This is pretty much like ST XI, except with three Naradas.
     
  6. SotF

    SotF Apocalypse How

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    With the aggressive ones, greater teleport and the Ice Age/Global Warming spells can ruin inhabitable planets...
     
  7. Imperator Pax

    Imperator Pax Talon Master

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    Levels of the wizards?
     
  8. SapphireFox

    SapphireFox Fuzzy Fuzzball of DOOM! Subscriber

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    So getting in on a fledgeling star-faring nation and molding it to their desires would mean nothing to a powerful mage? Are you sure we are talking about the same kind of wizard?

    :wtf: Highest level was mentioned at 18, and they all would have to be at a level strong enough to cast "Plane Shift" to even get to the ST verse and that needs a 13th level wizard to cast at minimum. Obviously there are scrolls and the like but those would be limited in access.


    The spread is a little different but have the right idea about the power curve.

    10-13 (53) 14-15 (22) 15-16 (17) 17 (5) 18 (3)

    I addition to this I did mention the 75 1st level apprentices.

    And those 72 combat ready wizards are just that combat ready, not a reference to their level just ones serving on the front line not in government or teaching the new apprentices.
    Scroll of teleport and the like while carrying a warhead from a photon torpedo, drop it off on an enemy ship teleport back, and boom. Photon through the shields. Invisibility spells while doing this will likely prevent even the most alert crews from stopping a wizard.

    Creative infiltration may net you more explosive goodness at an enemies forward operating areas. A well planed Op might even net the Maquis Republic a ship or two.

    How many colonists do you think they would have in the DMZ let alone one who would be joining the military?
    See above

    And where would starfleet be getting this Defiant class ship? You do remember I posted this.
    The Defiant hasn't even been built yet, heck if memory serves it might not even be on the drawing boards yet.
    And what would you expect a bunch of former civilian colonists to have hmmn?
    Why would you expect a shipyard to fight?
    I did say roughly did I not? The shields are obviously off the decommissioned excelsior hulls mentioned elsewhere

    Where are you getting stole from? Its Ferengi, they would buy a decommissioned hull for salvage and scrap and obviously turn around and sell the hull intact for a far greater profit.
    What the hell are you expecting to be in a federation mothball yard? From the sound of it you were expecting top of the line, fresh, front line warships.

    Seriously... wtf, the excelsior is only just being removed from it's front line spot by this point in the timeline and even then the class seems to make up a substantial portion of starfleet ships.

    Are you serious or just trolling me? 'Cause the only way that works is the Maquis remote control the fighters and turn them into kamikaze kinetic kill vehicles... On second thought considering how effective the Dominion ships were in that role, kinetic strikes may work.
    It is mid-TNG. It isn't the dominion war yet, there hasn't been the post borg attack / pre-dominion war fleet buildup yet let alone the mothball yard raids or hulls. Try cutting that resultant number in half, and maybe half again to count only the ships being within a reasonable range. Remember that this is the point in time where loosing 40 some odd ships took at least a year to recover from.
    Where are you getting these Akiras and Defiants from, they haven't even been designed yet. The biggest and baddest ship in the federation arsenal is the galaxy class and it hasn't even gotten its combat upgrade yet.
     
  9. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca

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    That's what shields are for. Also, there is no way in hell a human can teleport himself onto a ship moving at combat acceleration without the aid of a computer and FTL sensors. The ship would be miles away and he'd pop out in empty space.
     
  10. SotF

    SotF Apocalypse How

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    There was spelljammer stuff published for 3.5...they can do it.

    I do wonder if most larger starships would have enough crew to count as cities for the find city nuke. Something a level 5 wizard can pull off, a level 7 one can do it and get away without a scratch...and leave several hundred miles of ruined terrain.

    And the best part, it's a Diviner who can do it best...
     
  11. SapphireFox

    SapphireFox Fuzzy Fuzzball of DOOM! Subscriber

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    If magic worked that way then people would likely find themselves teleported high into the atmosphere or deep into the earth every time they teleported as planets like ours do move at around 107278.87 km/h or 66,660mph.

    As for the "But they have shields" argument there was an episode in TNG where there were a group of terrorists who kidnapped doctor crusher and then later captain picard who used a dimensional teleporter device to transport through or rather around the shields of the enterprise. One of the most common teleporting methods is through the astral plane which is another dimention parallel to the main material one. The same would apply to shadow teleporting as well.

    As for the find city nuke thing I think that even the largest starships in ST only carry about 1000 crewmen and in dnd terms that should only be a small town. I don't know enough about the spell combo to tell if that works or not.

    I am curious what the books the "spelljammer stuff" is in as I don't think I have the books that refer to it.
     
  12. John Lemon

    John Lemon

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    I think you don't understand the magnitude of wizard power in DnD 3.5.
    Locate city bomb at level 18 affects 407,150 square miles of area, at minimum level to cast, it affects 15,393 square miles of area. A 50Mt nuke affects a 5,026 square miles of area (taking first degree burns on exposure to light as maximum distance affected).
    Greater celerity allows you to perform 6 seconds worth of actions when someone so much as twitches at you.
    Time stop is a personal increase in speed to the tune of 1d4+1 (2~5 spells) while everyone else does nothing.
    Greater teleport allows you to go to anywhere you like after looking at a picture of that place.
    Let's not bring alignment into this, shall we? Hard to quantify and I'm relatively certain there's a few ways around it. Pay the neutral guys, promise to let the evil guys have a planet to play around with etc.
     
  13. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

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    In general? No.

    Most mages are happy enough to be left alone. It is possible to have someone who is power hungry and a mage, but simply being a mage does not make one desire a kingdom. In fact, those who do run a kingdom only do so for the sake of gathering spell components and rare artifacts. Given that the Maquis aren't going to have rare artifacts and given that Starfleet's resources are a) free and b) much greater than that of the Maquis, I'm willing to bet that most the wizards are going to jump ship.

    Especially when they learn the disparity of te fleet sizes.

    Entirely sure.

    Yeah, you might have a few who want to stay, but to be honest, they're usually not the brightest or the most honest ones. And even putting these issues aside, they're not going to make a lick of difference.

    Even still. This falls under 'annoying' not 'WTF?! WHAT JUST HAPPENED?' sort of thing. In Trek, beings with these sort of powers while incredibly rare, are not unheard of.

    Even still, it's not going to be that large of a threat. And those 75 1st level apprentices might as well not even count. Your average phaser is more lethal, more or less as accurate, and can become the easy equal to the 7th level spell disintegrate.

    Okay...

    Yeah, because that'll learn them.

    Or maybe, after the first time that happens and they detect the active matter-antimatter warhead next time, they'll just beam it back into space. Even if you take out a few ships, it's not going to deter Starfleet. It's just going to make them angry.

    And if it starts to get costly, they might consider letting Section 31 take a whack at it.

    Yeah, because it's not like those things have security codes or anything. Or self destruct sequences. Nor is it like Starfleet has codes that will deactivate their shields and weapons in the event that someone actually did manage to steal their ship.

    Not many, that's my point. They lack the manpower to fight any war with the Federation. In fact, I highly doubt there are 100,000 colonists in the DMZ, let alone 200,000+ to fight in their army.

    The Defiant was built and tested before Deep Space Nine proper even started. That was Sisko's position before he was transferred to DS9, or did you forget? And it was by the way, during the beginning of season 3 (as in the first fucking episode) where the Defiant was taken out of storage and assigned to DS9.

    The Defiant was designed in 2366. To give you an idea, this was Season 3 of TNG. In 2369, Benjamin Sisko was assigned to DS9 by Starfleet. This would be Season 6 of TNG and Season 1 of DS9. The Defiant was assigned to Deep Space nine in late 2370 in response to the emerging threat of the Dominion to bolster DS9's defenses. It’s also worth mentioning that the organized and dangerous Maquis, would most likely be under Lieutenant Michael Eddington, who defected in late 2372. In less than a year he had made himself a rather high ranked leader, if I remember. 2372 by the by, would be Season 4 of DS9.


    According to WoG, after the incident with Thomas Riker and the Maquis stealing the USS Defiant in 2371 and taking it on a run against the Cardassian border, was so impressive to Starfleet that they began pumping them out as quickly as possible (also worth mentioning that in an alternate universe, after obtaining the schematics of the Defiant class from the Core Trekverse, a rebel group built their own in like 6-8 months with their limited resources).

    So yeah, not only is it very, very likely that the UFP has the NX Defiant (since after all, it was built before the Maquis ever existed in the fucking DMZ to begin with), but it’s also likely that they have one or two more ready. And even so, while the Defiant is pretty heavily armed, they can have other ships take its place if you want to be that picky. A Nebula or a Galaxy is more than capable of fitting that role.

    Nothing much at all. That's the point; they're so horribly outmatched in technology, weapons capabilities, size, and industry that unless your lead wizard is named "Larloch" it's not going to matter what the fuck those wizards do because a) as good as their spells might be, their not much better than changelings b) the wizards are not powerful or numerous enough to cause serious damage c) no wizard is going to stay and fight for a nation that is composed of a dozen worlds against a nation with thousand(s)...you know, it comes from being able to do basic math and d) there's not enough incentive for anyone to back up this republic.

    You realize the first thing Starfleet did when they knew war was coming with the Dominion was to hit the Cardassian/Dominion shipyards in order to cripple their ship production, right?

    It's still shit. Keep in mind that the upgrades for the Excelsiors to make the competitive warships against things like the Defiant was in mid 2372 (Homefront/Paradise Lost). And the Defiant was suggested to be the first to be capable of finishing the fight. Commander Worf however, did not see it as an acceptable solution.


    Because Starfleet would not sell their old hulls for any reason. Especially to be use for warships.

    Yeah, because Starfleet has a great business relationship with the Ferengi Alliance, right? :rolleyes:

    First off, let's get this straight. Starfleet has a strong dislike for the Ferengi and for very good reason. The Ferengi's first encounter with Starfleet ended with a battle, costing them the Stargazer (which they later returned, though it turned out to be a trap). Their official meeting was in like 2361, where they had stolen Federation property.

    Follow through with seven years of rather poor relations with the Ferengi. Such things including dishonest dealings with the Federation flagship, as well as kidnapping their crews, attempting to take over the flagship for personal gain (after stealing a BoP from the allies of the UFP), and so forth.

    Business relations only improved with the UFP during later DS9 era. And even then, there were Ferengi who were more than happy to try and take advantage of the stranded ship Voyager in order to get their hands on foreign technology that they could spin for a profit.

    There's absolutely no reason for Starfleet to sell them anything remotely relate to warships. Especially when there are known and hated arms dealers. So hated are said arms dealers that when Quark joined his cousin in the business, no Starfleet officer was allowed to visit his bar.

    So why in God's name would they sell them old ship hulls to sell to less advanced races or governments? Answer: they wouldn't.

    No, I'm not expecting them to get anything from Starfleet. At all. Ever.


    The only Excelsior that they would likely get their hands on is one of the older four digit models or an early five digit model, not one of the later ones. And even if they somehow managed to, they're still vastly underpowered compared to the newer ships like the Akira, Defiant, Nebula, and Galaxy.


    Those Dominion ships were also pretty large and had some fair amount of shielding. It would take multiple ships ramming into them to get that done. It takes Cardassian phasers one or two hits to punch through UFP bomber shields.

    My guess is that's not going to be a reassuring thing when Starfleet ships have shown that even splitting their beam power between shots via their arrays, their GCSs can still penetrate Galor class shielding in single shots.

    And good luck ramming the Defiant.

    Either you've forgotten your ST history or your stupidity is truly staggering. The DMZ wasn't even formed until 2370. Got that? Sisko was already in charge of DS9 for a full year before the Maquis existed. It wasn't until like the 20th episode of Season 2 of DS9 that they existed, or mid to late 2370.

    The Defiant was in fucking storage then.

    Yeah, because apparently STarfleet built those 70,000+ ships only to throw them out every couple of years...are you fucking high?!

    Starfleet has shownt o be able to gather 20-40 ships within days notice. Wolf 359 and the Klingon Civil War both involved a few dozen ships being assembled with only a few days notice.

    And this is what we call a 'war', not a response to invasion. In an extended conflict, the longer Starfleet has to call on its ships, the easier it's going to be for them to gather the forces.

    And given that your post suggested that Starfleet was going in, then they wouldn't need to summon those ships on such short notice. This would probably be planned at least a week in advanced.

    I swear to God, if I hear another person say that, I'm going to fucking brain them.

    No, it didn't take 'at least a year' for them to recover from 39 ships being destroyed. Allow me to educate you:

    Shelby said that the losses suffered from 39 ships would be replaced within less than a year. You know what that means? Anywhere between 1-12 months is going to be fair play. And we're probably looking at something close to the middle. And that's probably going to be on top of what Starfleet had ordered to be built the previous year.

    That's funny, because the Akira-Class Starship USS Thunderchild has the registry of NCC-63549 and the USS Galaxy (the prototype for the Galaxy line) has a registry of NCC-70637, suggesting that it's been in service for much longer than the Enterprise D, which I think belonged to what, six or seven of the first GCS class ships?

    Oh yeah, and as I mentioned, the Defiant was designed in 2366, years before Sisko was even assigned to DS9.

    The Galaxy class wouldn't even need the combat upgrade to back hand the USS Defiant. The Defiant may be heavily armed, but it's too small to take on a GCS. I'd even give the Nebula class higher odds of winning a fight over the Defiant, especially if it has the weapon's pod.

    The Defiant's four forward pulse phaser cannons are nice, but they're nothing against the GCS's forward mounted x5 torpedo launcher and heavy phaser banks.
     
  14. hyzmarca

    hyzmarca

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    Relative velocity matters.

    Locate city bomb isn't canon, though. It's an abuse of some poorly worded spells and feats that weren't intended to interact with each other that way. It's also utterly insane for any mage to take all of those feats.
     
  15. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

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    It's called relative velocity. The mage is already moving at 66,660 mph on Earth. Therefore, teleporting onto something like a boat or a plane has disorienting effects upon wizards due to the sudden change in velocity because the plane is moving faster than 66,660 mph when you factor in Earth's rotation.

    Because of relative velocity, that doesn't really factor into it. However, the added speed (say, 200 mph) will make a difference. We don't really know how much difference it will make, since even sailing ships moving at considerable speed don't send their mages hurling off.

    I don't think however, they'd be well in balance.

    Not to mention that TNG era ships can move at .25c up to .8c if they need to.

    I agree that teleporting is an out-of-context issue with ST shields. However, there's no reason why they can't simply beam the bomb off once it's onboard. It's not like it's hard for them to detect them.

    Please. Enlighten me to a kosher D&D spell available to 18th and below that includes 'nuking a city'. Because Storm, a near 30th level epic wizard and Chosen of Mystra was at her best, able to hurl the top of a mountain/crag roughly three times larger than a castle.

    That's an impressive bit of firepower, but it sort of falls below nuking a city on demand. Nor would it get pass their shields.

    There is absolutely nothing in Spelljammer that would help. Not unless your idea of bolstering the Maquis fleet includes ships made of wood and stone.

    Many posters will now be having a good laugh at the irony of this statement.

    Again, what sort of source are you using for this fucking spell? The sort of spell like this require epic level magic and it would be such a heavy spell that it would require either hours of preparation with multiple casters or a great deal of the caster's life force.

    Yeah, the massive shockwave sure as hell doesn't count for shit, am I right?:wtf:

    Okay...so what? What does this prove?

    You're shitting me, right? Alignment is the easiest of things to quantify in D&D. And let me tell you, most of those mages from FR wouldn't give two shits about the Maquis or what they're fighting for. Even the really nice ones would throw them maybe one or two bones before realizing how fucked up of a situation they're in and leaving before they get hurt.

    I shit you not. The Maquis revolved around a bunch of spoiled colonists who thought that their plight of being moved to another, wonderful planet with full Federation aid (that includes replicator technology, transporters, industrial replicators, phasers, and teraforming technology) is equal to the horrors inflicted upon primitives who were forced to march the Trail of Fucking tears at gunpoint with little more than they could carry on their backs.
     
  16. John Lemon

    John Lemon

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    Sauce.

    Wait a minute, you don't even know the most obvious charop examples and you're lecturing me about irony? :wtf:

    4th level spell. Splatbooks: Complete Arcane, Frostburn, Player's Handbook 2.

    Too lazy to thermodynamics over lunch. FAS says it's 33% thermal energy and 50% blast, so let's figure + 50% radius. Still small compared to LCB.

    That you can't kill wizards using weaponry. It also means that any wizard with access to genesis is functionally invulnerable unless the ST people have access to the ethereal plane somehow.
    Except alignment doesn't necessarily indicate worldview. A good character might either be pro-life or proabortion, an evil character could be an adventurer who intends to free a nation without caring about the methods by which he/she/it uses and neutral characters have opinions all over the damn place.
    Wow, that... actually sounds kinda retarded, but there'd still be people who would go "It's the principle of the thing" and fight against the UFP.
     
  17. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

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    FAILURE


    I don't focus my energy on irrelevant game mechanics...

    Which would be smacked down by any DM with half an ounce of sense. At least.

    The shockwave is one of the most dangerous aspect of a nuclear weapon.

    How do you figure? Few spells reach from the Ethreal onto the material.

    And honestly, these people have dimensioned hopped before. Don't think that the wizards are going to be able to keep doing this and Starfleet won't get smart. They've even modified their transporters for beaming into alternate universes.

    With some sensor observations on these attacks, they'd probably locate the overlapping plane and send some test probes in. Then find a way to defend against it or to strike back.

    Planting a few 500 ton bombs throughout the ship on said plane designed to go off should anyone without authorization enter would be a nasty way to go.

    Splitting hairs.

    I never at any pointed indicated that they cannot have depth, but I did indicate that their general world view is rather easy to determine. Evil characters are selfish and tend to do what they do for gain or sport. Neutral characters don't care unless they have strong reason or motivations for doing so. And good characters go out of their way even when they have little motivation to do so or even when it's a hazard to their health.

    It was made for Voyager.

    And no, it's not the principal of the thing either. It really, really isn't. It's literally about your parent nation telling you, that for your own safety, you have to leave or the people with guns might kill you for their land (because it was never really yours to begin with), you accusing them of age-old horrors that their ancestors committed against yours, throwing a fit when you don't get your way, and then starting a war where people die for land.

    Land that the UFP has in abundance.

    You are in essence, arguing for redneck morons who are even stupider than normal redneck morons of the modern day because at least today, land is in shorter supply than it is in the Federation that can literally turn lifeless husks into paradise.
     
  18. John Lemon

    John Lemon

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    I love how you dismiss it out of hand without any given reason. Can I have your autograph?
    You don't play DnD 3.5 to any degree of seriousness then.
    Which brings us to the question of "What kind of DM places wizards up against Star Trek?" Not really the most sensible of DMs, methinks.
    Yes, but I don't want to do the math right now, and unless the shockwave is a few orders of magnitude more powerful than the thermal emissions, I doubt it would matter much.
    The problem with this is if one of the wizards already has a demi-plane configured for 1 year/6 seconds, he/she/it can then create 52 demi-planes every six seconds realtime and strike from any one of those. Then there's the hilarity of trying to find a 180 foot radius plane in an infinite expanse.

    Again, Greater Celerity, Time Stop, Disintegrate to counter probes, rerouting through timeless or elemental planes etc. Although one does wonder if the UFP can make Antimagic fields.
    That sounds more like a good way to get your ship destroyed for no reason, tbh, considering wizards can just contingent resurrection or celerity'd greater teleport/planeshift their way to safety.
    And there you've tripped over the exact same point I was making. Evil does not always mean selfish, good does not always mean selfless. Also, I'm getting bogged down in what I didn't want to discuss, so I'll just shut up about it.

    Then it entirely depends on how the wizards view squatting, which becomes an issue of lawful v. chaotic and oh god alignment again.

    I'm not arguing about how stupid the whole thing sounds (I think the Marquis went full retard, going by your account), I'm arguing about the utility of wizards in ST.
     
  19. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

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    Game mechanics are not allowed as a means of debating. It must come from fluff.

    Yeah, because if I don't allow players or condone other players to use loopholes to perform absurdly stupid things, it must mean that I'm not the l33tc0re.

    Right.

    But this isn't a DM controlled environment. This is a vs debate.

    At close range, that shockwave will reduce you to paste. At its outer ranges, it will still shatter windows.

    Yeah, ignoring the large amounts of life force they have ti give away to cast those spells.


    Probes are cheap and easily made. Not to mention considering some materials can resist phasers, they might also work against probes.

    No, since the explosion would occur on the Ethreal plane, not the material plane where the wizard would appear. It would do nothing to the ship at all. Of course, one wonders what would happen if the UFP were to adopt phase cloaks, but it's unlikely to come to that.

    Right, and most wizards lean towards law over chaos simply due to the way they're trained.

    In this scenario, they're useless. The government they work for would not last a week against Starfleet, let alone the time needed for the wizards to perform any real damage. In order for any of these attacks to work, they'd have to locate the ships, teleport onto the ships, pray to God that relative velocity doesn't hurt them that bad, plant a bomb, pray that the bomb isn't detected, and teleport off without being caught.

    Hard to do. And frankly, unlikely. Catching a ship that can move at well over a thousand times the speed of light is rather difficult when the Maquis fastest ship is probably limited to hundreds of c, not the thousand plus that fast moving UFP ships will be using.

    Now, if the wizards were working for the Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, the Cardassian Union, or fuck, the bloody Breen, this would be a different sort of war. But as it stands, the wizards do too little too late. They don't have time to properly infiltrate. They don't have the firepower to take out ships. Only through max use and assumptions of their magical abilities are they able to provide any service at all--and a highly morally suspect one at that.

    And even then--even then that wouldn't win them the war. Because if it came down to it, all the UFP needs is a cloak and a long range torpedo loaded with a biogenic weapon. Starfleet itself wouldn't do it, but S31 might (though biogenic is a bit too much, probably multiple torpedoes with cloaks aimed towards military installations).
     
  20. John Lemon

    John Lemon

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    In an RPG where you essentially have to make up your own story from the get-go, what counts as fluff and what as game mechanics?
    You're not l33tc0re not because of the either two reasons, but because you're not paying attention to the possibilities of people fucking up your game. Too much charop will break your game, and as such you really should be paying attention to that board in case someone suddenly asks whether they can play a kobold.

    Then what's to stop them pulling off LCB?
    The question is at what range will it retain it's lethality?
    Use the amusement that is challenge ratings. Solo a great wyrm and you get +64800 xp at level 18. Four such dragons yield all the necessary xp required for 52 planes.

    Then it becomes an issue of magic vs. DEWs, something I don't particularly want to argue. If all else fails, force cage and gate would send the probe into the elemental plane of earth.

    If the wizard is on the material plane and your explosives are on the ethereal plane, what use are they? :confused:
    Great, then problem solved! Wizards say "deal with it" and set about their own business.
    Only if the wizards don't cheat. Any wizard could buy a postcard of a UFP planet and greater teleport there. 100 wizards on 100 planets threatening to cast the aforementioned LCB is going to cause the UFP to back down really quickly or face gigadeaths and devastation.
    Gate could theoretically reroute the torpedoes into some other plane (e.g. aforementioned demiplanes, astral plane etc).
     
  21. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

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    Crunch is game mechanics. It's not hard to spot. Fluff is the stuff that the mechanics represent. We have two old threads dedicated to this stuff. Just do a search for 'Fluff from D&D'.

    This might come as a shock to you, but people I tend to play with generally respect the spirit of the rules.

    Waste of time. As soon as you spot the problem, you fix it. I don't need to explain to a fucking adult why I'm changing the rules for their character when they went out of their way to exploit a rule.


    Good sense in debating. You're thinking as a player, not as a wizard from the series. The wizards in the actual setting have never used this sort of spell mixing before. Half the time, they don't even get basic competent spells like that off.

    Elminister sure as hell doesn't time stop everytime he's presented with a potential danger.

    Depends upon yield. However, a 10 kiloton bomb leveled most of Hiroshima.

    Game mechanics.

    Yes, that's possible. But wizards tend to, even in fluff, to have a limit to what they can cast. And that just happens to be much lower than the amount of probes the UFP can produce.

    Hell, they might even go a step further and start producing a Starfleet version of an Echo Papa 607. A drone complete with weapons, shields, and sensors (though again, they need to fix the targeting sensors...).


    There are multiple spells that allow for ethereal travel.

    Of course, if the UFP can start detecting their teleportation spells, possibly by some small of energy surge or something, then they could just install phaser emitters on every deck set to wide beam and then stun them the moment they arrive.

    :rolleyes:

    Alright, your retarded LCB claim aside, even if they could do that, that wouldn't get the UFP to back down. That means they take you out quietly. S31 would be perfectly happy to ensure that a little too much proto-matter fell into their stars to ensure a super nova. Or several high yield subspace warheads with cloaking devices strapped on targeted towards their home world.

    And of course, the idea that the Maquis--even a desperate Maquis would even dare suggest mass destruction against population centers is so absurd that I'm convinced that you've never actually watched DS9.


    ...You're shitting me, right?

    Not only could a torpedo theoretically be altered in mid-flight, but as soon as the first volley is swallowed up by a gate (and it's likely to only get one torpedo unless the firing pattern keeps them close together), but the next round is not going to be going straight through, so all you've bought them is an extra half minute of shitting themselves--assuming there's only one ship to begin with.

    That gate would serve as a better means of escape than it would as a weapon. Also, Gate spells have a range of 100 feet + 10 per level. So by OP rules, it would only appear 180 feet from where the caster is. At best it'll be a few meters in front of the ship and at worst, it probably won't even make it past the forward hull.

    Oh and ST ships can operate in the hundreds to hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
     
  22. drake_azathoth

    drake_azathoth Mayor of Can Town

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    Putting the stupidity of allying with Maquis aside for the moment, I can easily see the the wizards getting the UFP and Cardassia to back off and let them build up if they start using their brains instead of engaging in more terrorism.

    Simply put: Espionage. Putting aside the obvious value of divination and enchantment, the wizards could come up with a real 'offer you can't refuse' deal when it comes to bribes and blackmail. Just about any of the wizards mentioned in the OP could cast 'Planar Binding'. 'Planar Binding' lets you summon a Trumpet Archon. A Trumpet Archon, amongst many other things, can cast a 'Ressurrect' spell that will bring back anyone dead less than 140 years so long as even the smallest piece of their body remains.

    I mentioned blackmail, didn't I? How about bringing back someone's wife or child without even being asked to- and letting them know they can have them back unharmed as soon as that pesky war with the UFP is over with.

    You can bugger around with all kinds of spells for nasty situations, but the 'Planar Binding' series would be INCREDIBLE for espionage and pretty good for simple battle as well. Agents that automatically return to their home plane when they signal you they've finished the job? Teleportation, invisibility, etherealness... The sky's the limit, and it reverses the knowledge gap- neither Cardassia nor the UFP would have any initial knowledge of the creatures that the wizards would think of summoning.
     
  23. Mith

    Mith SB Head Dungeon Master

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    While that is a tempting offer and I can't speak for everyone in Starfleet, they can be really, really cold sometimes. Jean-Luc forbade Q-Riker from restoring a dead girl in a pink dress to life when it was easily within his power to do so in order to combat the "temptation" of using his powers.

    I think the results will be mixed. And honestly, the OP stipulation is the only reason these wizards would stay. Starfleet has just as much to offer them as they do. The Maquis were always a dead end. They were a political thorn in the ass for both powers and that was it.
     
  24. Yitzi

    Yitzi Jew

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    They came from Forgotten Realms, not from Optimization-land. So Locate City Bomb shouldn't work.

    Of course they can. It's Sarrukhs that are strictly off-limits. (Also, Master of Many Forms that would be interpreted to lift the "animal only" restriction, but not other restrictions such as the limited selection from Divine Minion.)

    Also, Rule 0 is a great counter to such things, as long as you don't use it enough to annoy the actual players.
     
  25. SotF

    SotF Apocalypse How

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    Either Dungeon or Dragon magazine, can't remember which as a friend was running it with those there
     
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