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F-22 Raptor vs. Su-27 Flanker

Discussion in 'Vs. Debates' started by Anala'shok, Jan 29, 2002.

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  1. Anala'shok

    Anala'shok dealth is your friend.

    American made F-22 vs the older Russain built Su-27.
    F-22:
    m61a2 vulcan with 480 rounds
    2 Aim-9m
    4 Amraams
    Su-27:
    30mm cannon
    4 archers


    Who wins and how long does the furball/dogfight last?
     
  2. In a dogfight? Depends on the pilot.

    The F-22 isn't designed to be in a dogfight anyway. It's meant to kill it's targets from 20 miles away before the enemy even knows it's there.
     
  3. F22 from well beyond the flankers range.

    First sight, first shot, first kill.
     
  4. I guess the F22 may win this, for example launch 4 AMRAAMs at long distance.

    One could use the "gear and flaps" and brakes to rapidly slow down and execute a tighter turn.
    (Tested on F22 TAW, F22 Raptor, Lighting 1/II/III.)

    It's a bit rough, but it works for most of the time.
     
  5. Nothing Fancy

    Nothing Fancy Simple But Effective

    In a dogfight it reall depends on the pilot. If it's a search and destroy, pilots start off not knowing where the other guy is, F-22 wins.


    Can't wait till Gabooz sees this one:)
     
  6. areoborg

    areoborg Would you like to make a contract? Moderator

    The F-22 should be able to win. It is a first sight, first shoot, first kill fighter, not a dogfighter. The dogfight will be determined by the pilot's skill.

    Shouldn't this be in the non sci-fi debate? :confused:
     
  7. Alyeska

    Alyeska Beast Slayer Subscriber

    [Q]Originally posted by areoborg
    Shouldn't this be in the non sci-fi debate? :confused: [/Q]

    Yep.
     
  8. I notice that for missiles, you only gave the Sukhoi 4 Archers, a contemporary missile to the AIM-9J or so. Thus, with only short range missiles, the Sukhoi is an even easier kill for the F-22.
     
  9. phongn

    phongn MUSHROOM MUSHROOM!

    [Q]Originally posted by Howedar
    I notice that for missiles, you only gave the Sukhoi 4 Archers, a contemporary missile to the AIM-9J or so. Thus, with only short range missiles, the Sukhoi is an even easier kill for the F-22. [/Q]

    Hmm...didn't notice that.

    Alas, the Flanker has a much higher RCS and the LPI radar of the F-22 should allow it first-look first-kill. Even it takes more than one AMRAAM.
     
  10. Mayhem

    Mayhem First One Pilot

    Even in an eye-ball only gun-fight, the F-22 has a serious advantage here. It's big, but it's thrust vectoring abilities and all moving control surfaces give it a definitive edge in manuverability... add that to supercruise quality engines (meaning it can hit supersonic without afterburners and resultingly a huge thrust-to-weight ratio)... and ooo-boy.

    At medium ranges (i.e. anything beyond visual range) the Flanker wouldn't see it until it opened the weapon-bay doors to launch a sidewinder up the flankers butt, and maybe not even then. It's as steathly as an f-117 by most accounts.

    At long ranges... the F-22 has the normal advantages that USAF planes enjoy. It can aqquire, launch, and turn off it's radar (going stealth again) before the Flanker can even launch.


    Sorry, but this is just an unfair contest... now an F-15 vs a Falnker would be a bit more fair.... at least they're both from the same generation of fighters.
     
  11. mughi3

    mughi3 heavy metal-guru

    first off this isn't fair because the SU-27 is the oldest model of the series and the f-22 is the USA's newest. it should be up against the SU-37(SU-27 airframe with avionic upgrades and vectored thrust etc...). now in a missle battle the F-22 has the stealth ability that will give it the edge. if it were a visual gun duel the 37 is about on equal terms with the 22 in the manueverability department, so it would depend on the pilots skill.


    the SU-37 VS the F-15....if the pilot could survive the G forces the 37 can walk circles around the 15 in the manueverability department.
     
  12. A SU-37 would eat a F-15C alive. It has a better radar, better agility, better whatever.
    I think it would take a F-22 in a dogfight too.
    However, the F-22 should realy be compared to other next generation fighters.
     
  13. Ted C

    Ted C Aspiring Evil Overlord

    [Q]Originally posted by Bregor
    In a dogfight? Depends on the pilot.

    The F-22 isn't designed to be in a dogfight anyway. It's meant to kill it's targets from 20 miles away before the enemy even knows it's there.
    [/Q]

    The Air Force chose the F-22 over the F-23 because it had better dog-fighting performance.

    In any event, the F-22 still has a good chance of locating and destroying the Su-27 before the Russian plane even knows the F-22 is around; both the F-22 and F-23 are stealth designs (although the F-23 has somewhat better stealth characteristics).

    I'm not sure if the F-22 will ever be in actual production. I believe the Joint Strike Fighter is going to be the next major fighter aircraft project, and the F-22 has already been obsoleted.
     
  14. [q]The Air Force chose the F-22 over the F-23 because it had better dog-fighting performance.[/q]

    I didn't say that the F-22 wasn't a good dogfighter, but rather it is meant to be able to shoot down enemy fighters at long range before they even know the F-22 is there. It is in a much bigger risk in a dogfight, and shouldn't have to be in such a situation in most cases. Still, if the F-22 were in a dogfight against a soviet-block fighter with pilots of even skill, my money would be on the F-22.

    [q]I'm not sure if the F-22 will ever be in actual production. I believe the Joint Strike Fighter is going to be the next major fighter aircraft project, and the F-22 has already been obsoleted.[/q]

    The F-22 is already in production. In very limited numbers, but still, it is being manufactured. The F-22 is better in it's intended role (air-superiority) than the JSF, since the JSF is meant to be more of an all-purpose economy fighter/bomber. However, with the end of the cold war, even the JSF is superior to nearly everything but the F-22.
     
  15. Anala'shok

    Anala'shok dealth is your friend.

    the JSF is planned to replace the aging f-16(all models) and complement the A-10. The f-22 is degined to replace the aging f-15 as the main fighter in the airforce arsenel.

    i hope i get to work with the f-22 and/or JSF.:D ;7 :p
     
  16. Ted C

    Ted C Aspiring Evil Overlord

    Okay, okay. I stand corrected on the F-22 v JSF issue.
     
  17. IXJac

    IXJac Citizen

    Not at all a fair fight.

    If you're going to take a next-generation fighter not yet in actual production and pit it against an opponent, at least pick another next-generation opponent.

    Like, say the Su-37, or even the S-37. . .
     
  18. I would also like to point out that the USAF has a tremendous advantage over the Russians considering their training budget. The Russians barely have enough money to keep their aircraft flyable, let alone flying. US pilots get much more flight time than their counterparts in Russia.
     
  19. Severian

    Severian Sword of the Lictor

    Um, I got the impression that the Raptor has indeed gone into production. Can anyone provide a citation denying this?

    As for who would win, I'll take an F-22 over any other fighter in the world at this moment. Nothing else can maintain a 7+ gee turn without losing energy and altitude.
     
  20. IXJac

    IXJac Citizen

    I believe that the Air Force was given the go-ahead to begin production and is now recieving funds, but production hasn't actually started yet. Certainly the aircraft aren't in service yet.
     
  21. Severian

    Severian Sword of the Lictor

    [Q]Originally posted by IXJac
    I believe that the Air Force was given the go-ahead to begin production and is now recieving funds, but production hasn't actually started yet. Certainly the aircraft aren't in service yet. [/Q]
    Well it's certainly TAKING long enough. The F-22 (then called Lightning II) won the Air Superiority Fighter competition back in 1996 for crying out loud.
     
  22. IDMR

    IDMR Face of Oblivion

    This is a complete mismatch (but I assume that you already know this). Not only are you pitting a 3.5 generation plane against a 5th generation one, you are limiting one side to short range AAM only. The F-22 has superior stealth properties, *far* better ECM and radar and four Amraams long range AAM to boot. In short, the only chance the ol' sukhoi has is if it accidentally stumble into a dog fight with the raptor, otherwise? Barring extreme incompetence or some serious squawk material, the raptor eats the sukhoi for breakfast.
     
  23. Severian

    Severian Sword of the Lictor

    [Q]Originally posted by IDMR
    This is a complete mismatch (but I assume that you already know this). Not only are you pitting a 3.5 generation plane against a 5th generation one, you are limiting one side to short range AAM only. The F-22 has superior stealth properties, *far* better ECM and radar and four Amraams long range AAM to boot. In short, the only chance the ol' sukhoi has is if it accidentally stumble into a dog fight with the raptor, otherwise? Barring extreme incompetence or some serious squawk material, the raptor eats the sukhoi for breakfast. [/Q]

    If I may be sold bold as to offer a small correction...

    The AIM-120 Scorpion (AMRAAM) missile is a MEDIUM range missile. That's what the acronym stands for: Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile.

    LONG range missiles can engage targets out beyond 100 miles. The US has only one such AAM in its inventory, the Phoenix. And only one platform that can carry it, the Grumman F-14 Tomcat.

    Still and all the range mismatch is a serious one. Even the Sidewinder (the Raptor will only carry AIM-9X, btw) is vastly superior to its Russian counterpart.
     
  24. TanGate

    TanGate Siberian dweller

    [Q]Originally posted by Severian
    Um, I got the impression that the Raptor has indeed gone into production. Can anyone provide a citation denying this?

    As for who would win, I'll take an F-22 over any other fighter in the world at this moment. Nothing else can maintain a 7+ gee turn without losing energy and altitude.
    [/Q]

    But can it fly rearwards? Su-37 can. S-37 too, but S-37 is also capable of maneuvers that can put sport planes on shame.
     
  25. IDMR

    IDMR Face of Oblivion

    [Q]Originally posted by Severian
    The AIM-120 Scorpion (AMRAAM) missile is a MEDIUM range missile. That's what the acronym stands for: Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile.
    [/Q]

    *smacks forehead*

    Sorry about that. Guess I am just use to thinking the AMRAAM outranging almost anything...
     
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