3340 from Ventus would have to be pretty low on the list of enemies I'd want captured by. After perverted contests to prove you are worth keeping alive amongst your planetary population (which may involve things like mass murder and/or mass torture) he may rip apart your mind with and mix and match parts with others to put into new servants as a reward for good service, or might rebuild your body and mind so that you become a near god-like being....but not only won't you be in control your very mind will be merely another part of 3340 (this is another "reward" for good service). Oh and while he's at it he'll be ripping apart and rebuilding your home planet to serve his whims as it becomes yet another part of his vast distributed body.
psychlos from Bf earth are probably a V, their nervous system makes it so that causing pain to a captured subject gives them orgasmic pleasures. They almost exterminated the few remaining humans of the original Psychlo invasion that way.
Yes but the Draka do that stuff to the entire population. The Nazis generally let you go on with your life as usual so long as you didn't resist and you weren't Jewish or otherwise high on their eugenic shit list. There's simply no comparison. L is for races where you can expect to be made a regularly beaten overworked slave as a matter of course. K is for races that will likely turn your homeland into a complete shithole as a matter of course. The Empire, like the Nazis, will more-or-less leave you alone and let you go about your life so long as you don't resist and you aren't in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'd say they were slightly better than the Nazis because they never attempted to deliberately exterminate a large portion of the galactic population. In terms of sheer kill-count Imperial attrocities dwarf anything any real-life government did, but one should remember the Empire was a galaxy-spanning society with a million worlds, so proportionately a couple of billion people being massacred out of a galactic population of quadrillions is nowhere near as bad as six million people being massacred out of a population of tens of millions. I'd give the Synchronized Worlds a L.
I think maybe it would be easier if they were ranked from top to bottom. I tried to get everything everybody's suggested so far. Galactic Patrol/Civilization: B Foundation (Foundationverse): B Tau (40K): G Mule (Foundationverse): G Galactic Empire (Star Wars): H Nazis (Real Life): I Combine (Half-Life): K Imperium of Man (40K): K Japanese Empire (Real Life): K Daleks (Dr Who): L Synchronized Worlds (Dune Prequels): M Psychlos (Battlefield Earth): N (they basically just wipe you out) Borg (Star Trek): 0 Beast (Homeworld): 0 Necrons (40K): 0 Draka (Drakaverse): R 3340 (Ventus): S Arachnids (Starfire): T Ssi-Ruuk (Star Wars): W Strogg (Quake): Y Chaos (40K): Z Dark Eldar (40K): Z Mephisto (Marvel): Z I suggest the Khmer Rouge would probably be the only example of a real-life government I can think of that might deserve a P-R rating. Also, we might want to make Final Society Draka distinct from human Draka, the latter are far more brutal. The Final Society would probably go just below the Daleks IMO. Edit: the patron species from Upliftverse like the Soro, Tandu etc. probably deserve at least an L too, come to think of it.
Feddies: B? And the better patrons (like those allies of the humans) from Uplift probaby get a F (and even that only for stuff like controlling reproduction). With other Uplift races falling in between. I'd put them lower. Joining the Foundation isn't joining some paradise, it's just becoming a member of a powerful alliance. Like E.
I'd say that putting the Combine on the same level as IoM is doing the Imperium an injustisce. Actually, putting IoM on the same level as the Japanese is a whole damn lot of injustice. IoM is cruel and unusual because it has to be due to the way the universe is set and the piss-poor situation it is in [though if the Emperor was still in good shape and/or the Horus Heresy didn't happen, things would be far better]. In return, they provide their worlds protection from Orks, Tyranids, Chaos and all that nasty, nasty stuff that lurks around and that a single planet would be doomed against. The Combine opresses the populace rather ruthlessly to keep it in line while they turn them all into Synths [though some things, such as CPs and their behavior, are sheer sadism, but that's just our lovely human nature at work]. In return, they offer said populace biological immortality, security from outside threats, [such as Antlions, or Gargantuas, or any other creatures ported on Earth during Portal Storms, which still happen, I will note] and some minimal standard of living for everyone, even if it is piss-poor. Japanese raped and butchered the populace because they were total assholes, and gave them precisely shit all in return. They were so bad that the Nazis were disgusted by it. [in fact, one Chinese national hero was a Nazi who saved many Chinese during the Rape of Nanking, IIRC]
Even if they have a reason, that doesn't change that they are cruel and unusual on a pretty massive scale, press-ganging people en-mass to serve as slave labor, imposing horribly draconian laws, etc..
Right, there's no comparison. One enslaves the population, and the other murders millions of people over things they have no control over and which aren't a threat. So L = regularly beaten overworked slave and R = non regularly beaten worked for output slave. Seems a bit lopsided.
How could you not give them worse? Have you read the Butlerian Jihad? They torture, overwork and kill people for all their lives.
Hutts: P. They've legally enslaved entire species. IoM: Depends. If you accept the Imperium when they first come to your world, then it's not too bad. Just pray to the Emperor, do your job, etc. and you'll do okay. Overall maybe a H or J if your planetary governer isn't an elitist asshole, then it's L or M. If you don't accept them, though, they kick the shit out of whatever military force you have and place you under Administratum rule for the next few millenium. Then it's an S or worse. EDIT: Just for clarity, would you mind clarifying some of the grades, Q99?
Now that we have a good amount of feedback, sure. A through F- all's good ('specially ABC), probably benefits from joining even the short term. D E F will have drawbacks, but they're reasonable, tend to the minor and overall a boon (although there could be an F that has major drawbacks in exchange for massive and immediate advantages etc.). G H I- Some benefits ('we want our colonies to be healthy so we get trade and goods in return' type stuff), probably more long term tha short term (i.e. you'll benefit from the economy of joining ___, but it's not like they'll help you get there fast so it might take decades/ a century or two), but obviously less, and expect stuff from the conquered too (If a civ conquered, installed healthcare and new tech and stuff, but then put the people into debt and made them pay it all off, I think I'd give that an I if it's pretty good quality stuff and it's conceivable to pay it off and). Pretty normal stuff. J K- Some lipservice to helping, but mainly in it for their own profit, or aids some while hurting/persecuiting others significantly, or just general disreguard. In general everyone's knocked to the bottom rung and it's more the type of thing the conquered have to recover from. L- Just about the mid-line of the letters (not actually, but it seems we need more room in the lowers), stuff like 'roll into town and take stuff from the population occasionally, prevent anti-conqueror uprisings, and provide little benefits aside from not wanting other people to take it from them' (for a more 'not caring' example), or totalitarian and controlling with some aid provided but countered by strick controls, low-qualities of life all around, some people do ok, but significant portions of the pop are treated badly. M and below- Actively harmful, lowering qualities of life massively, but using new ways to make it worse given the option, especially in O and P. There might be *some* parts of the pop doing ok, but only a minority. Q R S- Now things just suck. Really, really torturous things. Horrible, and pretty unquestionably evil. T- Extinction sounds really really good around here. U and worse- Fight for extinction tooth and nail. Null- There isn't a conquered via death, changing, or being incapable of conquest. Just some descriptions, multiple very different types of conquest can all fall under the same rank.
There are also many worlds in the Imperium where things are rather nice. IoM, in general, doesn't interfere too much into the internal affairs of the world if it pays it tithes and there are no Chaos/Genestealer cults around or anything like that. Of course, sometimes you get an asshole for a governor, in which case you are in deep, deep shit, [in "Eye of Terror", an Imperial world was a police state so strict that it forced people to praise the Emperor at least several times during a casual conversation, and the alternative wasn't especially nice] but then, it isn't like I claim that IoM isn't evil at all. The biggest problem is that the populace usually has little way to rebel against a horrible governor without the Imperium falling on them like a ton of bricks. However, things like the aftermatch of the First Armageddon War [when the Inquisitor sterlized all survivors of a Chaos invasion and put them into labor camps] are sufficiently rare that they piss off high-ranking people in the Imperium. [Logan Grimnar in this case, IIRC, the Chapter Master of the Space Wolves] Though press-ganging is evil, of course, it really isn't enough to catapult IoM to the same level of cruelty as the WW2 Japanese, whose behavior was more similiar to that of Chaos cultists than Imperial forces. Revising that area, going by your guidelines, I would myself put IoM at J or K, [depending on the exact circumstances of the invasion and the person in charge, it might even be I] the Combine at L, and WW2 Japanese at M.
They also make sure the Church has a strong influence on your world, and that church *is* pretty dire.
They tend to be pretty subtle about it, though. IoM prefers assimilation over destruction when possible when it comes to human worlds, and so when it comes to religion, [and most other things, for that matter] it rarely crushes stuff into paste. And while the influence of the Imperial Church is strong, it isn't really overriding when it comes to planetary policies, at least not usually. After Age of Apostasy, IoM is pretty serious about this sort of things. Even a relative atheist can make a decent enough living in IoM. [as seen in the "Eye of Terror" novel, though it's pretty hard to remain atheist when the only thing that prevents you from begin eaten by a daemon is the Emperor] Of course, various governors have different approaches to the whole thing, but that generally varies from planet to planet; some are more pious, and some are less. IoM is generally not a very uniform creature, when you get down to it. Of course, my point isn't that IoM is all fluffy and nice, obviously. Corruption is wide-spread, law enforcement is harsh and the repercussions for dissent are most severe. I just think that putting it in the same group as WW2 Japanese and the Combine just doesn't do it justice. You might be opressed, but the chance of you getting randomly killed by soldiers or the police is very small, all things considered.
Just to back up what Hollewander is saying, there is a project here which seeks to map out an entire Imperial sector. Although it is fan fiction, or at least fan contributions, and is in no way official, it is at least an attempt to create a "realistic" Imperial sector (as a contributor, at least it is meant to be), and actually, most worlds are, on the whole, H-K level. Well, my first contribution, Faustri Prime, is one of those eugenist, total control places. Well, at least everyone is happy because of the conditioning...
OK, I'll do a little rearranging now that it's been codified more. I was about to say it kind of bugged me that extinction was an O. Galactic Patrol/Civilization: B Foundation (Foundationverse): B Tau (40K): G Mule's Empire (Foundationverse): I Galactic Empire (Star Wars): L Nazis (Real Life): L Imperium of Man (40K): M Combine (Half-Life): M Japanese Empire (Real Life): M Final Society Draka (Drakaverse): N Daleks (Dr Who): N Greater Patrons; Soro, Tandu etc. (Upliftverse): N Khmer Rouge (Real Life): P Synchronized Worlds (Dune Prequels): P Draka - pre-Final Society (Drakaverse): R Psychlos (Battlefield Earth): R (mostly because they just wipe out 99% of your population) 3340 (Ventus): S Arachnids (Starfire): T Borg (Star Trek): Null Beast (Homeworld): Null Necrons (40K): Null Tyrannids (40K): Null Zerg (Starcraft): Null Ssi-Ruuk (Star Wars): W Strogg (Quake): W Lone Power: Z Chaos (40K): Z Dark Eldar (40K): Z Mephisto (Marvel): Z
I'd rate the IoM rather far down the alphabet from the GE. The Galactic Empire, though it can be brutal to non-humanoid species and rebellious planets, isn't in the habit of routinely performing genocide and xenocide. If the GE is an 'L', the IoM should at least be a N.
One word: Motivation. The GE does what it does to ensure a megalomaniacal psychopath remains in power. The IoM does what it does to protect humanity from the vast array of really nasty things that inhabit their universe.
Then you'd have to move a lot of things down the alphabet as well, since there is no way that WW2 Japanese are better than IoM [as far as I know, the entire history of loyalist Imperial forces has no event like Rape of Nanking, or many of other ways in which Japanese tortured their POWs and the occupied populace]. Ultimately, when factions such as the Combine are around M, IoM has no buisness begin any lower. Of course, GE also employs slavery of alien species at massive scale and is extremely corrupt. [and, as Prince Xizor could testify, even if you do nothing wrong, you are still prone to random outbursts of superdickery] Though I'd put GE as K, myself. Or maybe L, since most of GE's homicidal outbursts are more along the lines of "lol, random opression!", while IoM at least has justification for its actions.
I don't quite see why the Foundation earns a B. It seemed pretty good, but not a utopia per-say, just a nice trade-Empire that has had issues at several points in it's history. To do an edit of the list and add a few: Culture: A Galactic Patrol/Civilization: B Federation (Star Trek): B Skolian Empire: C Foundation (Foundationverse): D Abh: F Tau (40K): G United Mankind (Crest of the Stars): G Mule's Empire (Foundationverse): I The Realm (Exalted): I Eubians/Trade Empire (Skolia): J Galactic Empire (Star Wars): K Imperium of Man: M Nazis (Real Life): M Combine (Half-Life): M Japanese Empire (Real Life): M Final Society Draka (Drakaverse): N Daleks (Dr Who): N Fanatic Patrons; Soro, Tandu etc. (Upliftverse): N The Hive/Yang (Alpha Centauri): O Khmer Rouge (Real Life): P Synchronized Worlds (Dune Prequels): P Draka - pre-Final Society (Drakaverse): R Psychlos (Battlefield Earth): R (mostly because they just wipe out 99% of your population) 3340 (Ventus): S Arachnids (Starfire): T Affront (Culture): U Ssi-Ruuk (Star Wars): V Strogg (Quake): W Lone Power: Z Chaos (40K): Z Dark Eldar (40K): Z Mephisto (Marvel): Z Borg (Star Trek): Null Beast (Homeworld): Null Necrons (40K): Null Tyrannids (40K): Null Zerg (Starcraft): Null
Interesting concept. In part, the comparative status of conquest depends on what the world was like before. The standard Foundationverse world seems to be a backward, regressed tyranny, while others have independent planets with a higher quality of life. A few minor nitpicks: I'd think Skolians would go a couple of ranks lower. They're reasonably benevolent and provide an economic boost, but people who critize the government or war effort sometimes vanish into prison, and there's a general loss of autonomy and self-direction. The Trader threat notwithstanding, the conversation in Primary Inversion indicates that even some of the elite would prefer independence. I'd put the Mule at an F or above, personally. He seemed to provide a relatively benevolent rule, accompanied by significant security and economic benefits. Apart from the diehard Foundationalists people seemed fairly happy with his Union of Worlds, and he seemed less repressive than the Foundation at the time. I'd think the Traders would be at least as bad as the Empire, if not worse. They've destroyed more inhabited planets, with little more cause. They keep the vast bulk of their populace as slaves, with a minority class that's systematically tortured. The Empire is certainly bad enough, but their overall government doesn't seem as systematically corrupt, sadistic and repressive. As a body and with few notable exceptions, the Aristos are the ruthless pain-enjoying creatures of nightmares.
Centauri (Babylon 5) M If their treatment of the Narn is any indication....torture, mass reprisals, massacres, and general destruction. Anything to enhance their rule, with a chilling indifference to the lives of the conquered. Infinite Hexamon (The Way) B They allow considerable autonomy, offer massive support, and provide a chance for massive exploration, including into seperate times and universes. Agressive conquest isn't really their thing, but incorporation offers possibilities most socieities can barely dream of, and they do it in a relatively benign form. Starways Congress (Ender) G Apparently benevolent, but in actuality highly corrupt and self serving. Willing to destroy an entire planet to protect themselves. Used mind-controllling manipulation to assure supremacy of their rule on Path. The Mantis (Galactic Center) Q The main mech agent interested in preserving humanity, in a form. His focus is on using human beings as artwork, which is just as grotesque as it sounds. His intentions appear relatively good, but he forces certain mutations, adaptions and sexual perversions that the subjects--still alive and conscious--view as worse than death. Standard mechs (Galactic Center) Null Second Empire (Motieverse) H Dominion (Star Trek) I Hegemony (Hyperionverse) F Pax (Hyperionverse) J Alliance (Fireflyverse) K Oppressive, inadequate and uncaring about providing basic services to those outside the core, intolerant of actualized discontent, perform ill-managed and invasive mind control attempts, abduct and modify civilian teenagers as needed, ignore the existence of Reavers created by their own efforts, employ agents to murder all opposition.
Also on the IoM's raiting, keep in mind they also treat abhumans as inferiors, being a mutant or psycher is both illegal and not that uncommon in 40k worlds, and of course if you're alien they'll kill you at any time they feel like, even if you're harmless and nice. Raskolnikov- Good points, I'll revise them next time I do a full list. I had forgotten about the stuff the Skolians did.
Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist) - M based on what happened at Ishbal and Lior. Cities and peoples wiped out, horrible things done to civilians, massive displacement of civilians.
