One pissed off Roddenberry, two buttons, and three potential victims

Alright. Im going to throw a few examples at you of things in other Trek that do not work.

1. System sized space ships. I cant be bothered to do the long and complex calculations, but I am pretty sure that something that big would weigh so much that no material could possibly be strong enough to stop it collapsing in on itself, unless it was completely solid.

2. Creating a completely functional planet in a matter of days(?). It takes millions of years for the surface of a new planet to cool down.

3. And the big one: Flying around the sun to travel back in time. :wtf:

4. We also have multiple instances of "Star Wars Asteroid fields". Ie ones with stupid density. The average distance between any rock of any reasonable size in an asteroid field is 50 miles iirc.

5. My personal favorite is the way you can see straight through the shields, as shown by the fact that when they bring a vessel up on screen with its shields up they can still see it, yet they supposedly can stop lasers.

I really dont need to continue, but if you really want me to, I may go through the episode summaries and pull up a list of things that break physics as we know it, just so you can see that the only popular universe which says "FUCK YOU BITCH" to physics more is 40k.

Oh, this is hilarious. Thank you, 3D Master, for entertaining me so!

Exactly my point. I don't think you understood the question. Where are you getting the idea that Abrams-ST humans are apathetic or planetbound? McCoy's rant is the only thing, as far as I can tell, that could possibly be interpreted that way.

Quite a lot, actually. Wu xia is very cool and includes many non-katana swords.

Why is it that a Japanese character using a Japanese sword is so wrong when a French character can use a French sword and that's perfectly okay? The stereotype of Japanese people using katana is no worse than the idea that the French engage in Three Musketeer-style fencing all the time. A character can use a weapon that relates to their ethnic background.

Pray name one other stereotype relating to Asians in the Abrams film.

Remember the Sino-Soviet split? What were the stereotypes in American popular culture during the early Cold War? The Chinese in particular were perceived as shifty and treacherous.

I thought there was an overall theme. Adolescence, growing up, and expectations. Kirk had all these expectations to become a captain - he'd shirked a lot of them and been irresponsible, until captain Pike comes along and tries to impress him with some responsibility, and Old-Spock further establishes a reputation for Kirk to live up to - and had to deal with them in the absence of a father figure or role model. Spock had a similar issue; he also had to try to find himself as he grew and define himself in the context of Vulcan and Federation culture. It's telling that New-Spock mistakes Old-Spock for his father near the end. Father figures are definitely important in this film.

It's basically a coming-of-age film. Curiously that's a theme ST hasn't dealt with much before, but I think it works in this context.

...I love this argument so much.

I just don't have to say anything. This is so amusing.

Except those specific ideals don't really apply, since ST is not Roddenberry's creation alone. What are the ideals of ST? I would say: optimism for the future in a general sense, faith in science as a tool to expand our knowledge and improve our lives, optimism about the human condition and the intrinsic goodness of humanity, exploration and following your dreams, freedom and human rights, meetings with beings different to ourselves, free cultural exchange, and cooperation, the intrepid, adventurous nature of the human spirit...

All of those sorts of things. In short, to seek out new life and new civilisations and boldly go where no one has gone before.

I think the Abrams movie was true to those ideals. It fit them quite well.

As I have been explaining, and consensus seems to support me on this, your 'explanations' are singularly unconvincing.

I was never much of a fan of TOS myself. My favourite series is tied between TNG and DS9.

Anyway, good to know that DS9 doesn't do anything wrong in your view. That makes this considerably easier.

There are Bajoran prophecies which characters in the show correctly note tend to come true, and those characters analyse them in order to gain whatever insight they can into their futures.

How is that not to do with destiny? It gets a bit weird when looking into what the Prophets know, but looking into that and learning about it is basically about considering the concept of predetermination. The characters find it's slightly more complicated than 'the Prophets know the future', but it's still an examination of the theme.

Hang on, so a vague implication you're reading into a scene is enough to ruin the movie for you... but ancient Bajoran texts having prophecies that come true is not enough to ruin DS9?

Anyway, which Spock/Kirk scene? There are quite a lot of scenes between the two main characters.

I would call the Prophets supernatural. They do not abide by 'natural law' as it is conventionally understood. To all intents and purposes, that's supernatural. They're entities from another dimension that exist outside of normal space and time. They're not in the same category as the likes of the Q.

Not that it particularly matters. The Prophets, and the Q for that matter, demonstrate that you can have what are to all intents and purposes gods in ST and it doesn't destroy the plot, setting, or theme.

You claimed Chekhov was a child soldier. He joined a fleet corps, that has exploratory, scientific, and military functions, and was sent to help in a military conflict at an age where a person can legally join a military.

What's the problem? I mean, hell, TNG has precedent with Wesley, and you don't attack TNG for having 'child soldiers'.

So why, exactly, can't someone just say that to you and instantly render all your complaints moot?

In this topic several people have demonstrated that your 'attacks upon the heart of Star Trek' don't exist, and you've yet to show any significant plot holes. (No, just saying 'read my review!' isn't good enough. You're discussing things here. We're not going to do your work for you.)

But by all means, keep digging yourself down further. It really is fun to watch.

Because he personally doesn't like it, which means it's objectively BADWRONGFUN.

No, you got that all wrong.

There is no such thing, and even if there, they are either minor, or part of an equally bad episode or movie like this XI.

Well, equally, there's nothing worse XI. XI managed to be in epic failure in every single area except money made at the box office, which I don't get. This movie is horrible.

Real logic and real extrapolations? So I guess the School of "Pull it out of your ass and defend it with shoddy and faulty statements," located in 3D Master's Fantasyland in the state of "I will not yield even in the face of overwhelming evidence and having all my arguments torn apart," did a really good job educating you, huh?

Um, take a look at Asian swords and compare them to European swords.

Asian swords are designed for single-slash kills utilizing the least amount of strength possible. They are slashing weapons.

European swords are designed specifically to take advantage of the weight of the blade and the strength of the wielder, making it into as much of a crushing weapon as it was a cutting weapon. These are more of a hacking and crushing weapons.

If you're in a situation where you have to get into one on one fights with melee weapons, you want to be able to inflict the most amount of damage in the least amount of time with the least amount of effort.

There's the crossguard and quillions to consider. The katana does not have an elaborate crossguard/quillions, whereas a European weapon has them. In a situation like the one Sulu was in where he was going to be jumping from SPACE into an atmosphere, you want to have a weapon that will produce the least amount of drag once you hit atmo. A crossguard and quillions will increase the overall surface area of the collapsed weapon while at the same time decreasing its aerodynamics. Therefore, the weapon itself is more suitable for the situation.

Well, you've just shot down your entire argument here.

The Red Matter Technology was developed in the original timeline that you love so much. If everything in the original timeline is better than what was seen in ST XI, then by that very statement, you must love both the Red Matter Technology AND the new universe, as the RMT is from that original timeline and its use essentially created the new continuity.

You can't have it both ways.

So which is it? Is the movie a desecration of Star Trek, or is it simply bad writing? Again, you cannot have it both ways.

Okay, Vulcan sent out a distress signal, indicating global seismic activity and a "lightning storm in space." Nothing regarding a Romulan ship drilling into the core to destroy the planet. The main fleet was engaged in the Laurentian system and could not get to them, so the Academy staffs the eight ships in orbit with cadets in order to bring them up to capacity so they can go to Vulcan, assess the situation, and evacuate if necessary. Not ONCE did anyone mention that Vulcan was under attack until Kirk put it together.

And again, the Federation had no clue that it was a Romulan terrorist trying to destroy the Federation in revenge for something that hadn't even happened yet. They went there to find out what was going on.

Fine, anyway you slice it, it was a massacre, and only Kirk's putting of two and two together, combined with Sulu forgetting to take the parking brake off, kept the Enterprise from being destroyed along with the rest of the fleet.

Are you seriously suggesting that Uhura, as a cadet, was monitoring the events of the galaxy while the rest of Starfleet wasn't? If so, I'd like to present you with a check for reality. You can cash it in at any local Sanity Market.

Honestly, the Federation's own Intelligence Bureau would have also been monitoring what was going on and, seeing that it had nothing to do with the Federation (as this was between the Romulans and the Klingons) would have been simply keeping an eye on the situation, and not gearing up for war over a skirmish between two other powers.

Except that the sensor logs of the Kelvin, y'know, the ship that was destroyed by the Narada, would have had plenty of data to analyze. Also, do you not think that the Federation decided to place a call to Romulus and inquire about this situation? You forget that this is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT TIMELINE. Things went one way in the original timeline, and another in the new one. The two are mutually exclusive.

Well, due to the fact that it was constructed in the future, the Narada is bigger, faster, and a hell of a lot stealthier than its present-time counterparts. Combine that with the idea that no one would expect an attack on a core world, as all conventional (read: present era) ships would have been detected, and you have probable cause as to why the alarm wasn't raised. Once that drill went down, all communications are cut. They very well could have only had time to say "We are detecting seismic activities" before comms were cut. The actual message could have been intended to say "We are detecting seismic activities emanating from a central location and it appears to be caused by a particle beam drill that is tunneling into the core of the planet."

Remember, before all else, the Vulcans are logical and would have wanted to relay the clearest possible message to their allies.

See right there you lose the debate. If you resort to attacking the person on the other side of the debate instead of the issues, you lose. Case closed. Good night and thank you for playing.

No shit.

One word: structural integrity fields.

In the natural way that planet forms you would be right, but in the unnatural way, you're wrong.

Slingshotting around the sun at faster than light speeds. As a star generates subspace fields, the interaction between the warp field and a star's subspace field, could very well cause this. According to Star Trek science it does. No science is being contradicted as no one knows how warp fields would interact in real life with a sun's subspace fields.

Actually, nobody knows that. The asteroid belt in our solar systems the rocks are FAR FURTHER apart. But just because it is like that in our solar system, does not mean it is like that everywhere in existence.

That would be an SFX shot to look good on screen, and has nothing to do with Star Trek itself.

Except that you still haven't named anything that isn't limited by the need of a visual medium, and you won't, with a few tiny exceptions - none of whom are anywhere in the neighborhood of the outright bullshit that STXI purported.

If you think, that claiming "asinine extrapolations and pseudo-logic" and "pull it out of your ass" is "overwhelming evidence" and "arguments being torn apart" you need to find a psychiatrist.

Yeah, again, which weapon is the most practical doesn't matter. That he shouldn't be using a katana which is a steretype DOES.

No, you bloody idiot. What happens in any timeline does not matter. What is done in the movie matters.

Uh, seeing as the options do not contradict each other, I can indeed have both.

Yeah, THAT would be the problem. You think they MISSED a 15 kilometer ship first arriving in their solar system, then above their planet, and then start drilling into the core of their planet? Spock's mother could see it from her BALCONY with her NAKED EYES. You think all the sensor equipment throughout the Vulcan system couldn't see the ship, and so they dismissed what they saw with their own eyes as a hallucination?

Yeah, again, THAT would be the problem. They have FTL-sensors you know, they can see what's going on in another system before they arrive their - at least they should, or traveling at warp is going to be damn dangerous.

Which doesn't matter. There's a big a ship firing an energy beam down at the planet. If you have that happening, you do NOT send, "We have seismic activity." You send, "There's a ship firing at our planet, help!"

Besides which, even if they didn't, it still doesn't matter, because the ships would be seeing what is going on, LONG before they got their using their FTL subspace sensors.

Unless of course, the Federation doesn't have any FTL subpsace sensors - which would make warp rather dangerous.

Oh, but wait, there's this rinky dink little research station that doesn't even get proper food deliveries that has FTL subspace sensors as it can pinpoint and identifying a ship speeding away at warp speeds (speeding away at warp speeds, not standing still firing a massive weapon) accurately enough it can transport people on it.

Can you say: plothole.

Nope, not at all.

First of all, he didn't put two and two together. There was absolutely NO indication that the Romulan ship was going to Vulcan. Quite the contrary, they picked up old Spock at the "lightning in space", if the Nero hadn't wanted or needed old Spock, the Narada wouldn't even be there. Further, even if it had been (which incidentally was nowhere near Vulcan) seeing as it just destroyed 47 Klingons Birds of Prey, it is actually much more likely the ship would have gone back to the Klingons to kill some more Klingons. Not to randomly go the Vulcan and attack there.

He thus didn't put two and two together, he pulled two and two, and four and six out of his ass and came up with sixteen, which through sheer luck turned out to be the right number.

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, but the moment Kirk finally convinces the crew that he's right, even though his "logic" makes no bloody sense whatsoever, the Enterprise drops out of warp - right next to the Narada, the very thing he was trying to prevent; thus his entire frantic explaining DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

But wait, we're not done yet, Nero deliberately chose not to destroy the Enterprise because he wanted Spock to watch. The same thing would have happened if the Enterprise had simply arrived with the fleet. If the Narada had wanted the Enterprise destroyed, it would have done so just easily as the rest of the fleet, Kirk's little logic ass-pulling not withstanding. Thus, making the whole of that scene DOUBLY USELESS!

Result being, that whole plothole ridden pile of shit, that turned Sulu into a buffoon, Uhura into an idiot in dereliction of duty, and the Vulcans the species defined by their intelligence and logic into a bunch of illogical morons, could have been cut, removed, deleted, tossed out the window and the movie would have been exactly the same.

Actually would have been better, as the Enterprise and fleet would have arrived at Vulcan, and A. we would have seen the battle, and B. after sparing but disabling the Enterprise they would have been forced to watch the Narada cut the fleet to pieces, allowing for a very dramatic scene.

I know that, you know that, the writers didn't. After all, why does captain Pike have to hear it from Uhura? Why hasn't he been briefed by Starfleet Intelligence or whoever has been monitoring the destruction of those 47 Klingon Birds of Prey by one Romulan ship, or whatever Admiral got briefed by them?

Now this is what we call, pay attention: a plothole.

Besides which, it really doesn't matter whether or not other people were monitoring the same event, what matters is that Uhura didn't report it to the upper managed, which she should have, whether others are listening in or not. Because if Uhura had reported it, it would have gone up the chain of command to an Admiral, who in turn would have delivered the news to Starfleet captains and anyone else who had to know.

Since Pike didn't know and had to be informed by Uhura, she didn't. Dereliction of duty.

Actually, when you have JUST ONE Romulan ship that can take out 47 Klingon Birds of Prey without getting a scratch on the Romulan ship, you'll be gearing up for war. Or at the very least do SOMETHING, like warn every Starfleet ship of the occurrence and put everyone at a heightened state of security. After all, if the Romulans managed to build a second ship like the one that is attacking the Klingons, they wouldn't even need to wait before finishing off the Klingons to come after the Federation.

Aka: PLOTHOLE.

Except that the Romulans have this habit of being ISOLATIONIST, so even if they deigned to answer any efforts of Federation to talk to them, they still wouldn't be getting multiple dialects. They would only come from infiltrators, aka Starfleet intelligence.

Further, Kelvin's logs if they were even saved MEAN NOTHING. The Narada arrived in front of the Kelvin, that means the timeline is the same up until that point. Result being, that Kelvin crew would have absolutely no idea what Romulans look like. As far as they knew, they could have been dealing with some Vulcan dissidents.

Making the Vulcans a bunch of illogical morons. When someone attacks you, you say, "We are under attack", you don't bother with some side business bullshit. You get to the core of the point, immediately, that's the logical thing to do.

Which would be: "Help, we are under attack." THAT is the clearest and most logical message you can send when you are under attack. Only THEN will you start with the side business of details; especially when considering that attackers love cutting off their victims' communications. Vulcans: illogical idiots.

That then would mean you all lost a long time ago, as I didn't start the attacks, you people did, I just defended myself.

Well as for the original purpose, I too think that Roddenberry would rather kill Abrams, as B&B more closely followed the theme of the far away morally superior future men.

As for the discussion Trek has often enough thrown in some wondertech without any real explanation other than X does Y, or worse, a technobabble explanation where, if you have basic understanding of science, knew that they are talking out of their ass. Why does the new movie now have to spoonfeed everything to the audience? I thought Trekkies are so smart, can't they figure it out themselves?

Okay, I'm gonna ignore your most ridiculous arguments and the ones that use the same logic loop that you are stuck in.

Actually, which weapon is the most practical DOES matter. Your assertation of a stereotype is simply your own opinion, with no supporting facts. Also, if you are so intent on bitching about stereotypes, why haven't I heard a single thing about Chekov's seriously thick accent or Scotty's accent? I haven't heard you complain about anything that could be seen as a racist or cultural stereotype at all except the idea that Sulu used a katana, a weapon which I have successfully defended the use of on all fronts. No, I think you're arguing this because you just want something to latch onto to fuel you own impotent anger.

And what I was referring to was actually done in the movie. My argument stands.

So? Answer the question anyway.

Actually, I know what your completely biased answer will be anyway, so don't bother.

First, Nero didn't "randomly" pick Vulcan to attack. He deliberately chose it.

Secondly, here's how the events played out.
- 1) The Narada and the Kelvin fight, with the Kelvin suiciding into the Narada. The Kelvin's sensor logs, which are either safely transmitted back to Starfleet Command or stored aboard the escaping shuttles (likely both), contain the information regarding the entire encounter. The Narada is crippled and taken in by the Klingons, where the crew is sentenced to work at Rura Penthe.
- 2) Pike writes his Academy dissertation on the Kelvin incident.
- 3) Jim Kirk finally enlists in Starfleet, where he reads Pike's dissertation on the Kelvin.
- 4) Nero and company stage an escape and get to the Narada, but are beset upon by the 47 Klingon Warbirds. The Narada destroys them all in the escape. This entire incident is picked up by Uhura.
- 5) In a moment of idle gossip, Uhura tells Gaila about the battle she overheard. Kirk hears it too, as he is under Gaila's bed.
- 6) The Narada intercepts the Jellyfish near Vulcan, which is heralded by another lightning storm

So essentially, the dissertation, Uhura's report, and the shipwide communication by Chekov gave Kirk the information to put it together.

Last, you have proven my point about how Starfleet Intelligence would have viewed the situation.

Except that had the Enterprise arrived with the rest of the fleet, Nero might not have seen the Enterprise for what it was and just destroyed it out of hand. Remember, he looked at the Enterprise very closely and barely stopped the crew from destroying it completely once he saw what it was. With seven other ships to contend with, that might not have been the case.

Not a plothole. You explain to me, within the confines of the movie, what kind of logic could be employed by anyone, including the Vulcans, to say that "47 Klingon Warbirds destroyed by a Romulan ship" means that an attack on Vulcan is imminent.

Okay, first and foremost, how do you know she didn't report it? This entire scenario between Uhura's hearing and the threat to Vulcan could have taken as little as two to three days.

Day 1 Evening: Kirk's doing the horizontal bop with Gaila when Uhura comes home and tells her about having learned of the incident that day. Kirk mentions very specifically that he was doing the Kobayashi Maru test the next day. Day 2 Early Morning to Late Afternoon: Kirk takes the Kobayashi Maru test and defeats it through cheating. If Spock works fast enough (which we know he can especially when confronted with a situation such as this), he could very well discover the duplicity of Kirk's secondary programming and call a meeting of the disciplinary board. If the test took place in the early morning, it's possible, though not probable, that the disciplinary board could convene that very afternoon to question it. It is most likely, however, that the meeting was held the next day.

Even if Starfleet intelligence worked as fast as possible, that short amount of turnaround would not allow for a full dissemination across all of Starfleet. As with any intelligence, it has to be analyzed, verified, and distributed across the entire network. Pike might not have known about it because the Enterprise was still in Spacedock when she was rushed out. The ship had not even been officially commissioned, therefore Pike would have been a second priority on the dissemination list.

See above.

Yes, they were isolationist in the original timeline, but when a bigass ship arrives out of nowhere crewed by Romulans and starts destroying ships from another power, then it's not difficult to consider that they would try to keep themselves out of this, especially since they prefer to be, as you put it, isolationist.

The sensor logs of the Kelvin were used as intelligence for Starfleet AFTER the incident. As everyone knows, the Federation-Romulan war had already taken place. While they had never seen a Romulan, the Romulan ships had been seen and fought. The Kelvin's sensor logs, when compared to the logs of the Federation-Romulan war, more than likely revealed a similarity in style.

You're assuming that the new Star Trek movie was made for Trekkies. I didn't get the feeling that it was made for the ones who've sat through the various incarnations of Star Trek on television, but it was made for those that hadn't really gotten into Star Trek before, and thus weren't as familiar with what were some trademarks of Roddenberry storylines.

These are the same people who built that huge space station we saw, maintain a sizable fleet of starships, and are prominent members in an interstellar Federation of multiple species. I don't see how that fits very well with the idea of a race that fears to set foot in space. Beats me why they'd build a starship on the ground, but as you yourself pointed out a race with such a fear of space would logically never build the Federation.

Yeah, your useless moaning about child soldiers is as hypocritical as you can get.

TNG had it from the start where the mighty Federation war fleets had children aboard. So B&B who write that ships with heavy military duties actually have families of men, women and CHILDREN is fine, but a trained and graduated 17 year old cadet on one space ship, oh fuck the Federation is a Nazi-Terrorist organisation sending kids into the midst of battle. God yank your head out of your ass 3D, see the sunlight and what it shines on for what it is, you and a big bag of epic fucking fail.

Oh, and I think he kills B&B

Clarify- you're saying that regardless of practicality, Sulu should not use a Katana because he's Asian. This is what you're saying?

Sigged

This is like watching RocketGirl debating again. Brings back memories.

Yes, I'm smart, I'm smart enough to see complete crap.

Why you haven't heard about Checkov's accent and Scotty's accent is simple: we've seen Sulu with European weapons, NOT the Katana. It's the one where the stereotype was broken. And now 40 years later, it goes BACK to being the stereotype.

No, you're argument is that of an idiot. The timelines matter not, IT'S THE MOVIE THE PROBLEM! None of the previous films and series used "red matter", it's XI that did, none of the others.

Yeah, you see, if you had a functioning brain, you would have known that I already GAVE you the answer, multiple times over.

It's BOTH. The film is BOTH badly written, AND a desecration of Star Trek.

Yes, Nero did that, but Kirk doesn't know Nero, nobody on the Enterprise knows Nero, nor do they know his past. Therefor, for them, claiming some ship is going to Vulcan would be RANDOM. The evidence they have been presented with, is that the Romulan ship has attacked Klingons. There is nothing to suggest the Romulan ship will suddenly switch its target and go to Vulcan. To the characters of Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise crew, such an action would be a random thing to do.

But hey, such a thing would require oh, a 12-year-old's functioning brain, and slight ability to see things from other people's aka the characters, point of view.

You assume, nowhere was this said.

Which of course, creates several more plotholes.

Except, again, that his "putting it together" MAKES NO SENSE. First of all, the Jellyfish is NOT near Vulcan. Second of all, he only got LUCKY that the Narada wants what came out of the lightning storm. It's pure LUCK. The two events have nothing to do with each other. They're two "lightning storms", and that's it. One brought the Narada, and 25 years later the jellyfish came through. If the Narada didn't want the jellyfish, the Narada wouldn't be anywhere near the second lightning storm. Only someone who knows the plot of the movie, can know that the Narada wants what comes out the second lightning storm.

No, not all, quite the contrary. As I said, SI would have alerted every captain in the fleet what happened and it's time to be much more cautious. No such thing occurred.

Which doesn't matter, you ffing moron. We're talking about the movie here, and its plotholes, not precise in-universe ifs and ors. To the movie, there would be no change whatsoever if we scrapped the whole scene, in fact, it would have made the movie better.

Yeah, you see, that would be what I was saying - there is no way to know that if a Romulan ship is destroying Klingon Birds of Prey, it will suddenly switch targets to Vulcan. Therefor Kirk's "logic" makes no sense.

So, it takes Uhura at least 4 days to walk up to her superior and report what she heard? I know she didn't report it, because Pike doesn't know, he needs to hear from her.

Pike is AT EARTH. He would be one of the FIRST to know it. And you don't need any long analization and verification if an ffing cadet can do that just listening. But if you really want to do extra, any of the border patrols, or automated monitoring stations, actually witnessing the event with its sensors would have sent you the confirmation at just about the same time you receive the transmission. Once that is done, which can be done in less than an hour, you confirmation. Then, to send it out to all captains, all you would have to do, is put it in a transmission, and push the "broadcast" button. And everyone will know, nearly immediately.

Which would mean they're still in hiding, the only thing they'd send is a formal statement that they don't have anything to do with it. Maybe they're forced to send an ambassador, but after that, they continue onward.

A similarity in style? Do you what the Romulan style is? Warbirds, Birds of Prey, ships shaped like them, and having the motif of a warbird painted on the underside of the ship. THAT is the Romulan style. The Narada looks NOTHING like the Romulan style, nor does it have a warbird painting anywhere on the ship. It looks more like a Shadow Battlecrab than a Romulan ship. Therefor there is no way you can recognize it as Romulan ship. And obviously so, there's nothing else to be recognized either; it's a ship from a 130 years INTO THE FUTURE. This would be like you stepping into a Nissan, driving through a time portal, arriving in wild west, driving to a town, and the local Sherrif saying, "Japanese workmanship, right? Recognize it anywhere."

It makes no sense.

If Rick Berman was so utterly toxic, how come under his watch the Trek franchise lasted a great many years from 1989 up until 2005? Sure he got rather creatively bland and entropic towards the end, but the creative problems for Voyager and Enterprise can also be attributed to the creative meddling of UPN/Paramount, with the unimaginative suits wanting TNG clones. DS9 was relatively ignored by Berman and his bosses, so it became more its own show and more creatively successful.

JJ Abrams has only done one movie, and as very successful as it was at the box office, it did have mixed reviews with Ebert giving it a relatively low score of two out of four stars. JJ Abrams Star Trek was a good shot to the system and an entertaining movie, but as with GoldenEye back in 1995, a lot of people are ignoring many of its narrative flaws and the JJ Abrams ST revival could falter relatively quickly, like the Brosnan Bond era did.

And while Brannon Braga shat out "Threshold", he did that atrocity under the watch of Jeri Taylor and Michael Piller, two other TNG veterans who seemed more creatively burned out despite having more say earlier on in VOY's run, writing out pretty bland episodes like "Ex Post Facto" and "Elogium". Good writers on top of their game would've done everything in their power to block a bad episode like "Threshold" being produced.

And although under duress from Patrick Stewart and (again) Paramount Michael Piller shat out the abominable Insurrection, a badly padded TNG two parter edited into a movie and having a terrible plot where the Enterprise-D crew rob the galaxy's populace of eternal life.

Got back to this late....

First off, Section 31 and most of the Genocide is actually RDM. B%B had little to do with DS9.

Second, I meant things like cultural relativism, mostly banning conflict between charecters, keeping everything episodic, keeping conflicts a minor part and focusing on exploration, etc.

Again, I am ignoring inflammatory and trollish flames and concentrating on the actual debate here. Anything else I didn't respond on is due to faulty logic and repetitive arguments on the part of my opponent in this debate.

So you're stating that because it doesn't fit with your narrow view of Trek, it sucks?

We saw Sulu use a fencing foil once, and that was during a psychotic episode where he believed himself to be a part of the Three Musketeers. A psychotic break is not grounds enough to say that he only knows how to use one type of sword. The foil was quite likely the only weapon he had that most closely resembled a rapier, which is what a Musketeer would have used. It served the purpose of helping him fulfill his fantasy.

By that logic, you're saying that one-shot tech never seen before and never seen again makes a bad movie. Essentially that V'Ger made ST:TMP suck, that the Genesis Device made STII suck, that Scotty essentially "inventing" transparent aluminum in 1986 made STIV suck, and that the "fire-while-cloaked" BoP made ST VI suck.

Only Kirk made that connection. Spock only agreed that his logic was sound, meaning that it was worth consideration. It didn't matter anyway because as you said, suddenly they were there, surrounded by the remains of the fleet and had missiles incoming.

Not in the movie directly, no, but this was confirmed by the producers as being the case.

Again, you're assuming that Uhura was actually in the position of Starfleet Intelligence. She was a cadet. She was simply there to train herself AS SOMEONE ELSE LISTENING IN. The actual people doing the job were responsible for getting the information out.

Which confirms that the people aboard the Narada were, in fact, Romulans, and puts the Vulcans into a hell of a pickle because no human knew the shared ancestry of the Romulans and the Vulcans until that point. And this ambassador would also have an ambassadorial staff. Hence a very good explanation as to why Uhura knows and can identify all three dialects of Romulan.

Not that way, but when you look at the details of metallurgy and construction, things start to become clear. Much like DNA analysis can identify genetic markers between a man and his great-great-grandfather, a metallurgical analysis can identify similarities between a ship from the past and a ship from the future.

So to reiterate; protomatter is a MAGIC substance that can create planets (with working ecosystem and life in place) out of a freaking Nebula and 3D Master is perfectly fine with it (even if it rapes our current understanding of logic and science). However, red matter another MAGIC substance is a big no-no. Where the hell is the logic in that?

The biggest advantage of building a starship in orbit is that you don't have to boost the whole mass of it into space, but can bring up the parts piecemeal. As Federation has both antigravity and plentiful energy, the advantage is likely to be quite minor - small enough that the convenience of building the ship in a shirtsleeves environment, with stable gravity, overrides it.

He's being a Hypocrite.

I can think of several reasons to at least _start_ the process on the ground.

1) Safety. Drop a wrench on the ground, you put someone below you at risk. Drop one in orbit, you create a flight hazard. Then there's the issue of protecting the construction crew.

2) Practical. If you build on the ground, the commute is trivial. In orbit, you either have to transport them every day, or give them quarters on site.

3) Technical. How do you weld in a vacuum?

Spot-welding, maybe?