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Operation Ten-Go Aftermath

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by FleetAdmiral, Jul 5, 2007.

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  1. FleetAdmiral

    FleetAdmiral Serving the Imperial Navy

    Quick question has been really bothering me. Why did the USN Pilots NOT sink the IJN ships that were rescuing the survivors?

    After all, they were well aware, especially from Iwo Jima that IJN personnel were also being used to help supplement the IJA. By ensuring that there were no survivors, the invasion of Japan (A-Bomb was still a secret from general military personnel) would be made that much easier.

    Additionally, by sinking those IJN destroyers picking up the survivors, those ships would not be able to conduct convoy missions in the future.
     
  2. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Little Red Wolf Hunter


    Because the USA military unilke the Jap in WWII in´st a bunch of cold blooded kilers?
     
  3. FleetAdmiral

    FleetAdmiral Serving the Imperial Navy

    Yet, the one primary objective to achieve a complete blockade of Japan. Sinking those ships would help to achieve that goal.

    Additionally, the USN sank troop ships, these ships would be no different.
     
  4. Zarathos

    Zarathos Coat of Arms: Jastrzebiec

    US crews were shooting at japanese pilots hanging under a parachute, shooting at survivors (in the water) from sunk ships and such.

    No, they were not blooded killers.
     
  5. FleetAdmiral

    FleetAdmiral Serving the Imperial Navy

    From:
    Trophies of War: U.S. Troops and the Mutilation of Japanese War Dead,
    1941-1945 by James J. Weingartner from: The Pacific Historical Review, Vol. 61, No. 1. (Feb., 1992), pp. 53-67.

    It was popular for US Marines and Navy Personnel to obtain the skulls of dead Japanese soldiers to send back to their girlfriends or wives. After Japan found out about this practice the Marine Corps and Army moved quickly in an attempt to stem this problem, the Navy however moved slowly, very slowly.
     
  6. kclcmdr

    kclcmdr Kai The Kmpire! Super Awesome Happy Fun Time

    Alexandra Hospital massacre : 1942, Feb 14 : Imperial Japanese Soldiers approached the Hospital, Bayonetted medial officers, orderlies & patients in reprisals. 200 staff members & patients were order to march to a bunaglow about 400 meters away. Anybody whom fell along the way was bayoneted.

    Banka Island massacre : 1942, Feb 16 : A squad of Imperial Japanese Soldiers & their Officer ordered the walking wounded POWs to walk to a headland, where they were shot & bayonetted. They then ordered the remaining 22 Australian nurses to walk into the surf in which they were then machinge gun by the Japanese troops. Only One Nurse survive the massacre.

    Bataan Death March : 1942, April 9 : Approx. 75,000 Filino & US soldiers surrender to Imperial Japanese Forces on the Philippines Is.
    The POWs march more than two-thirds of the 90 miles in weakened and diseased conditions. POWs were routinely beaten. Anybody that fell of the path were usually executed or left to die.
    Only appox. 54,000 of the 72,000 POWs reached their destination. While Thousands of POWs were able to escape, approx. 5,000 to 10,000 Filipino & 600 American POWs died before they reach Camp O'Donnell.

    Burma Railway : Imperial Japan made POWs & civilians work on the Railway. It is est. that over 160,000 died due to overwork conditions, malnutrition & diseases.

    Changjiao massacre in Mainland China : From 1943-05-09 to 1943-05-12, more than 30,000 civilians were killed and thousands of women were raped.

    Laha massacre : 1942, Feb. : 300 Australian & Dutch POWs were pick at random & summarily executed.

    Manila Massacre : February 1945 : Retreating Imperial Japanese Soldiers slaughtered the over 100,000 Civilians in Manila City as they fought within the City.

    The Nanking Massacre : The Rape of Nanking : Dec. 13, 1937 : Imperial Japanese Forces attack, bombed & latter on, the slaughter of the Chinese Civilian Population.
    Anywhere between 20,000 to 80,000 women were raped by Imperial Japanese Forces.
    It is est. that over 200,000 Chinese Civilians were Bombed, Bayonetted, Machine Gunned, Beheaded, Buried Alive, shot and/or drowned within the city region of Nanking.

    Panjiayu Tragedy : Imperial Japanese Forces massacre 1,230 Chinese Civilians in Panjiayu, Hebei, China

    Sandakan Death Marches : 6,000 Indonesian civilian slave labourers and Allied POWs died building the military airstrip at Sandakan
    It is est. that almost 4,000 Indonesians, 1,381 Australians, and 641 British prisoners died at, or between, Sandakan and Ranau.

    Sook Ching massacre : 1942, Feb 15 : 300 to 400 Singapore Ethic Chinese were executed at The Punggol Beach Massacre.
    An Est. total of 25,000 Singapore Ethic Chinese died by the hands of the Imperial Japanese Forces occupying Sinapore.

    Tol Plantation massacre : Feb. 4, 1942 : 130 Australian POWs were massacred by Imperial Japanese Forces either by being bayonetted or being shot.

    Wake Is. Massacre : Oct. 5, 1943 : 98 Captured American Civilan Workers were blindfolded & machine-gunned. One American escape temporarily but was later recaptured & beheaded with a Katana.

    Three Alls Policy : A Imperial Japanese scorched Earth strategy used by Japanese forces during 1942-1945 that took the lives of an est. 2.7 Million Mainland Chinese. It is est. that nearly 20 to 23 Million Ethic Chinese had died by the hands of the Imperial Japanese, either by War, slaughter, starvation, experimentation by chemical or biological or just simply beheaded.
     
  7. IRS

    IRS

    You forgot the incident at a Hong Kong hospital where they kill most military personnel who are on the bed (wounded and other causes before Japan's entry into the war), pile the dead then proceed to rape nuns and nurses on those dead bodies.
     
  8. DrStrangelove

    DrStrangelove Self-appointed Opiate of the Masses

    in general us troops are encouraged not to commit war crimes and it has been that way since the geneva conventions. ........................god damn geneva conventions
     
  9. tveditor

    tveditor Don't Tell the Band

    American troops have certainly killed survivors. There were several reports of Sub's machine gunning survivors. But no western power ever came close to the Jap's. I read somewhere that something like 95% of prisoners taken by Germany returned alive...For the Japanese it was less than 40%. And that is not counting what happened in China and Korea. I believe that the Jap's killed almost as many people as Hilter's Final Solution. Of course we don't talk about that. And don't forget the rape camps as well.
     
  10. PainRack

    PainRack Hebephile

    To people complaining about how the Japs are "worse" killers than the Americans, way to miss the point.

    FA point was that the Americans could have sunk the ships rescuing survivors, and it was pointed out that it was even American policy to sink and machine gun survivors from troopships. Therefore, one cannot simply explain away FA question by saying the Americans don't do stuff like that, because we know that it was even official policy.

    Its more likely that in 1941, the Americans were "losing" and the invasion of PNG was seen as critical in stemming the Japanese, thus, american pilots had "no choice" but to abandon their morals and machine gun survivors in the water. After Midway, the Americans were "winning" and thus could once again try and hold the moral higher ground.
     
  11. Zarathos

    Zarathos Coat of Arms: Jastrzebiec

    kclcmdr - what is the difference between soliders marching into hospital and shooting at people and B-29 dropin incendiary bombs at said hospital?

    It WAS US policy to burn CIVILIAN buildings in Japan. You killed during few monts 1/6th of the numer of Jews killed by Hitler. Congratulation.
     
  12. Kensai

    Kensai Buns it up. SuperModerator

    What the Japanese did has no bearing on the OP.

    On-topic, it probably has a lot to do with the compartmentalisation required to do violence to another human being. When the enemy is in a ship, he's faceless. When the ship is sunk and he's bobbing in the water trying to get to safety, all of a sudden he's a human being again. By this point in the war, the situation was no longer desperate. Allied victory was pretty much assured, so the treatment of the enemy became in some ways more humane.
     
  13. It makes a difference whether you are targeting people or buildings.

    The U.S. goal was to destroy the Japanese economy largely based in wooden structures dispersed across Japanese cities.

    One can assume that had these structures been uninhabited (the Japanese having fled) that the U.S. would still have targeted the buildings.
     
  14. FleetAdmiral

    FleetAdmiral Serving the Imperial Navy

    But the USN pilots didn't have to target the survivors in the water, but rather the ships that remained in the area, which are faceless targets...
     
  15. Kensai

    Kensai Buns it up. SuperModerator

    Ships were rescuing survivors though, which makes them like ambulances. You're aware that you're killing people - that's the key thing.
     
  16. FleetAdmiral

    FleetAdmiral Serving the Imperial Navy

    However, these are warships which are not marked as hospital ships so they are viable targets. In fact, the Japanese made famous use of their destroyers as troop transports via the Tokyo Express during the Guadalcanal Campaign. Either way they are viable targets.
     
  17. IXJac

    IXJac Citizen

    Well, the US did strafe Japanese in the water all the time. There's even a famous friendly fire incident where a squadron of Corsairs and Avengers sank a PT boat and then strafed the survivors in the water while another PT boat tried to rescue them.

    I can only imagine that they were either feeling exhausted or merciful in the aftermath of the extended battle against the Yamato and the carnage they had already inflicted.
     
  18. Kensai

    Kensai Buns it up. SuperModerator

    Yeah, I'm not arguing whether the targets were viable or whether they should or shouldn't have, I'm addressing the OP which is about WHY the US personnel didn't go after survivors when they might have. It's a question of psychology, not legal right or operational capacity.

    To put it simply, the American troops, having won, dropped their 'game face'. It's the same phenomenon that has soldiers bayoneting enemies one minute and then offering them water and cigarettes the next.
     
  19. CommissionerJan

    CommissionerJan The Emperor Protects!

    Little or no ammo and fuel left?

    And sending in extra waves just to kill a few DDs might've been considered a waste of resources.
     
  20. Theodosius

    Theodosius Wanzerpilot

    As a note, not an attempt to excuse what happened, the Japanese hardly had the logistics to support their own troops. Not alone a very large number of American troops that suddenly surrendered. I read a neat article on globalsecurity about the issue- certainly their attitudes were responsible for many deaths, but the "Death March" isn't as clear cut as American propagandists made it out to be.
     
  21. LT_Ryguy

    LT_Ryguy The Mod members never call acquitter. SuperModerator

    No it's pretty clear cut actually.

    So some of them didn't starve intentionally.

    I doubt a couple hundred of them lost their heads via water dehydration or got so tired they accidentally fell on some hapless Japs bayonet.

    The Japanese, even in the new 'realist' histories coming out now were acting so barbaric they probably could've made Tamerlane blush. And American propagandists? The Japos tortured a lot more Filipinos then they did Americans, and none of them need American "propagandists" for their stories to be known.
     
  22. PainRack

    PainRack Hebephile

    He was talking with specifics to the Baataan Death March Ryguy, and for all that, he's right. The Death March was more of a callous attitude towards logistics and that the prisoners shouldn't be as well fed as the Japanese soldiers who were guarding them.
     
  23. Cavalier

    Cavalier Knight of Futility

    The Japanese didn't expect so many prisoners because the Japanese considered surrender contemptible and POWs as a sort of subhuman. The starvation of POWs happened in other circumstances where the Japanese did have the logistical capacity to feed prisoners adequately. Nor does "lack of supplies" explain the Japanese readiness to act with the utmost cruelty during the March, which saw plenty of summary executions. Japanese atrocities were not "American propaganda", but rather a systematic pattern of brutality and contempt for life that was imposed throughout Asia with the Japanese occupation.
     
  24. Cavalier

    Cavalier Knight of Futility

    It was US policy to pursue a bombing campaign against the Axis powers in order to destroy their industrial capacity and war-making power. The Axis themselves had set the precedent pre-war with the terror bombing of Guernica and Shanghai. Of course, the lack of accuracy was such that killing civilians was inevitable, but only legitimate military targets were formally put on the bombing lists. Japan had the misfortune that its cities and factories were mostly made of wood, and that there were no clearly defined urban zones. Rather Japanese industry was spread out all over the place, surrounded by civilian housing, and impossible to target by itself. Collatoral damage is not the same thing as targeting civilians, and bears in no way comparison with deliberate atrocities inflicted with cold malice on the ground.

    Oh, and by that logic, since tens of thousands of Jews were betrayed by their Polish countrymen and turned over to Hitler, the Poles were no different than Nazis. So I guess there was nothing to choose between Poland and Nazi Germany, and the Red Army rolling over them was a welcome punishment for both.
     
  25. LT_Ryguy

    LT_Ryguy The Mod members never call acquitter. SuperModerator

    Oh specifics. If we're using broad buzz words to define huge events from fifty years ago then for all that, he can be right and wrong depending on the specifics. How beautiful, everyone can be right then. :)
     
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