Pope in Africa talking out of his ass - seriously wtf????

Um, I suggest you read the PDF version of the article from Pediatrics

Sending link for easier viewing. It only gives something like .6 of a year different and partners of around .3 less total number of partners

Interesting, but there's one thing that stood out about that article. It did not compare pledgers to the general population, but to a select group of others who matched the profile of said pledgers. So they're comparing two, already quite conservative populations to each other; from the article "The pledgers and matched nonpledgers together are a highly religious group of adolescents and would be expected to be more sexually conservative. Pledgers and matched nonpledgers together reported substantially more conservative sexual behavior at wave 3 than the general population of adolescents—with fewer reporting premarital vaginal sex, oral and anal sex, birth control and condom use, and multiple sex partners and more reporting being married..."

So, ok, the pledge program by itself does not work. However, my assertion that "cultural indoctrination does work" stands.

Is that really a good thing? If so, the biggest question is why?

I wanted to add a part of the report to this discussion, that is the statement:

Article words not mine. The 89% lying about the pledge in the first place is teh major factor in coming to this conclusion in all likelihood.

Yes. Because it leads to more stable, happier families, lower crime rates, less STDs, etc, etc.

Well, less STDs for those who actually are faithful. (From same study "...but did not differ in 2 of the 3 STD tests: fewer had positive test results for Neisseria gonorrhoeae but did not differ in the proportion testing positive for Chlamydia trachomatis or Trichomonas vaginalis compared with the general adolescent population"" It's a bit of an odd result, really.)

I disagree...this factor of dishonesty is a part of the problem. Assuming that the writer is correct and there is a large factor of dishonesty, I wonder how many actual relationships is average and what the actual age is of first sexual contact. Basically, I am concerned about our data quality.

An interesting study which is comparatively recent is that the largest consumer of online porn in the United States is Utah, in most regards the most religious state with large number of Mormons with a good number of Catholics as well.

Now does it really lead to better families. Assuming that what I read is correct, Atheists have a lower percentage of divorce than highly religious people. Doesn't that mark against the happy family concept? As well, if you are not afraid to use birth control, you will be able to plan when you will have children and decide to stop when you have as many as you can properly support? Again, another factor for the more liberal family setting.

Allowing couples to have pre-marital sex is not a perfect solution. Most will still have problems but does it not allow there to be a feeling of each other? If not the sex but the living together for an expended period? Some couples may decide they just cannot work together and split up before they have children. Crime, from what I have seen, seems to have the largest percentage of crime in states with heavy religious background. There are exceptions though and general poverty is likely a much bigger factor.

The differing STD test may simply be the background noise of any testing procedure. In sampling, that can always be a problem. The size of the sample is not large enough to preclude that.

Edit: According to this article, The top ten religious states are Mississippi, Alabama, South Carolina, Tennessee, Louisiana, Arkansas, Georgia, North Carolina, Oklahoma, and Kentucky and Texas, which are tied.

Least religious states are Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Alaska, Washington, Oregon, Rhode Island, Nevada, and Connecticut.

Highest Violent Crime states according to this are South Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, Maryland, New Mexico, Delaware, Alaska, Nevada, Michigan, and Louisiana (Not including District of Columbia.) Texas is also high on the list.

Lowest Violent Crime states are North Dakota, Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Utah, Wyoming, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and Idaho.

I looked for a thread about the Poes opinion on birth control and I find this? Oh, and Desert Fox, the South AFAIK has almost twice the number of poor blacks. A group that in the US has a higher than average rate of Drug related crimes. Add to the fact that the South is shoulder-deep in a Moonshine and pot smoking culture across the board and the Meth epidemic and you have a lot more factors than religion. And remember, much of the area affected by TVA and other programs didn't and in some cases couldn't have things like running water and electricity for the longest time. BTW, sharecroppers and people who farmed the land for those who owned it were in noway exclusively Blacks. Many times the eldest son would have to quit school as early as 3rd grade to help support the family. Most of these families only had each other and the love they shared and God was the only outside force that would protect them. These are also people that barely trusted the gov't and up until TVA and other things owed NOTHING to it. They celebrated having large families and the ability to feed them. Its a whole cultural issue and focusing on one aspect of one issue is quite simply inadequate and in some cases, downright dishonest.


P.S. Apologize for the Necromancy.

Neitzche's works are usually not what people think they are.
this is largly due to his sister

im one of the most promiscuous people I know but he has a point, actions have consequences.
in the case of sex , std's, pregnancies and the like are possible consequences.
people need to except consequence.
now he is saying it in a somewhat harsher way but I cannot disagree with that paticular bit.

He may very well be that but being religious does not nessasarly = insanity or that one lacks belief in scientic method.

That rule was rescinded.

Would you kindly elaborate on this line of reasoning?

I find it paradoxical, at the very least...

It was right there in the paragraph before the one you quoted.

I know it's kind of mind-blowing (which is probably why you missed it originally); you know, conservatives that actually live according to the values they profess to espouse, but there you have it.

All right, serious answer. Mind you, this is not really my info, but my interpretation of the study linked by DF

The young people in this study had been taught from a young age onward by parents and peers that sexual relation were for within a marriage. It should therefore come as no surprise at all that these young people were more conservative in their sexual behaviour than the general population, and the study bears this out.

The somewhat surprising result is that there is very little statistical difference in behaviour between the groups that made the pledge, and those that did not. So the pledge only 'helped' those who were already inclined to follow their upbringing, and likely wouldn't have engaged in promiscuous sexual activity anyways, while those who were less inclined to follow their upbringing, went ahead and did whatever they were planning to regardless of the pledge.

Since when is responsible promiscuity a bad thing, and why would you want to reduce pre- and extra-marital sex?

Because you get aids otherwise, you hear me ? AIDS!

EVEN WITH CONDOMS!

Because Every sperm is sacred!

gah was going to do a quick comment and it turned into an essay.

well here goes nothing

*********************************************************************************

first things first

1. Let's not homogenize a continent. I hated it when Rifts Africa did it, and I still hate it now.

2. Not all of Africa sucks economically. Some of the players like South Africa, Ghana, Libya and Egypt are actually doing quite well all things considered.

Now that that's out of the way, the reason why Africa is in the crappy current state is as follows:

1. Post Colonialism: The transfer of power from The colonial power to self government was already flawed before it began, because the colonies were pretty much made arbitrarily and at gun point. Combine that with a lack of information to setup said countries for self government and the use of playing off tribal rivalries and you got a disaster waiting to happen.

2. The Cold War: The meddling of the great powers during the cold war gave us such things as guerilla warfare, the Ak-47 and the heavy machine gun in a pickup. the great powers also heavily preferred authoritarian states, and often used the very same methods the imperialist powers did a generation before, but without at least descent administration in place. It's hard to build a nation

3. Aid: This began as much a component of the cold war as any other tool available. I believe that aid works: Micro Loans have been amazing in stimulating many part of the continent and provide a positive benefit. However, often loans at the macro level are used as tools by authoritarian governments to solidify power. It also doesn't help matters out that a lot of the aid agencies often take a sizable cut as profits.

So if not watched carefully, it more often then not becomes a pyramid scheme backed with modern weapons.

4. Tribalism: First a definition:

trib·al·ism: 1. The organization, culture, or beliefs of a tribe, 2. A strong feeling of identity with and loyalty to one's tribe or group

Let me state for the record that tribalism has a tendency to appear anywhere. I have seen a ton of this attitude in north american suburbia and within subcultures. Hell Spacebattles could be considered a "tribe" as such. Social conformity can often limit innovation and new ideas due to "tradition."

However, the difference in Africa is 1. these tribes are really old, 2. they weren't taken into account during the colonial period, other then being a tool for control, and 3. this encourages nepetism and corruption, and their really isn't any one power that can declare total control. If one tribe conquered the others like a rome or a han china, they probably have a lot easier time consolidating resources and have greater success.

for example Nigeria is composed of many, many tribes to the point where nigeria is pretty much more then a administrative state that requires the use of english as it is the only universal tongue.

This attitude can and does become deadly. We all remember Rwanda, Sudan, but this is not an isolated incident. Ever since Colonialism, Africa has had a ton of these in the name of tribalism.

5. Superstition: I hate to bring this up, but unfortunately it is a component that has interfered with Africa's destiny. The Pope's edict is merely a symptom of a bigger problem that's common in all society: Misinformation in the name of superstition. The one that always comes to mind is that of how albino's are often killed in many of those societies. Another factor is a belief in witchcraft. The Medicine man/Witch doctor (depending on the culture) can also hold the power of life and death within a community, depending on the tribe. Plus if somebody is doing well that you don't like, you can accuse them of witchcraft and all hell breaks loose.

I had a buddy of mine who was a "sorceror" in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo and he started raising crocodiles because his family wouldn't leave him alone and would keep bugging him for ailments and issues at all times of the day.

I am not saying that you should give up your beliefs or cultural identity, but it will need to be reformed to some degree in a modern society.

6. Disease: Long Before AIDS, the Dark Continent was well known for it's diseases. In some parts of the continent, the ebb and flow is not determined by the weather or military conflict, but by the humble tse tse fly, which can carry Trypanosomiasis, an infection of the central nervous system. Other common illnesses are malaria (which is why some tribes have sickle cells as a dominant trait), and Diarrheal Diseases.

Remember despite being fairly close, Europeans really didn't start exploring the continent till they had access to Quinine

Even if you survive an infection, it might have an effect on your brain or body that might make things difficult.

7. Famine: When food is scarce, you will be more concerned with putting food in your and your families belly and would be willing to do a lot to do so. This is exasperated because of high birth rates to ensure that somebody from your bloodline survives. So even when food is good, it may cause a massive increase of population that will eventually lead to another famine. Combine this with disdain for birth control and it is a recipe that leads for disaster time and time again.

And unfortunately, they are kinda justified. Until the Industrial Revolution, western Culture did the same darm thing as a survival mechanism. Until they feel safe, this famine cycle will continue.

8. The Brain Drain: Remember that one guy that managed to Invent a windmill. For me I got 2 things from it: 1. he did it inspite of the ridicule of the community (hell his ma thought he was "crazy") and 2. he's currently not in Malawi anymore.

This is in many ways the biggest problem and the result of the other factors. If Somebody Figures out a way to survive and to prosper, they flee to Europe or North America cause they will have a better life there. As a result, the people most likely to change a society aren't sticking around.

And let's be honest, you would too if you were in a similar situation.


Ways to resolve

Note that many of these are already underway, but I think they need reiterating. Some of these range for "well duh", to "dear god, that's insane".

1. Education

To modify an old axum, give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach everybody to fish and there will be no more fish.

What I mean by this, is you also need to teach things like business, science, technology and the like. Sustainence is at best only the first step.

It also needs to include a degree of "loyalty training" to a particular state so that they can work with each other on a macro scale.

2. Urban planning: They need to plan out communities to 1. ensure short term survival, 2. easy access for school, 3. a loyalty to the state and their people in that order, and 4. Ensure the next generation has it better. This will mostly likely have to be done at the government level.

3. Committment: If everybody worth a darm is either a cruel dictator or running away from your country, you aren't going to get far. What you really need to do is setup a system to both convince people to stay and a arm to retrieve people in case they do. You need both a carrot and a stick in this case and while it might make a generation bloody, in the long term it would entrench

4. Military Action.: Unfortunately, sometimes military conflict is the only way to fix a situation. By conquering an area and imposing martial law, you can often get over a lot of the speed bumps that might be limiting a people. Both post war Germany and Japan are living monuments to this means of doing it. Hell King Shaka of the Zulu did something similar in the 19th century.

However, it is also very likely to blow up in your face, especially if you don't study a people before you start. It also works best when done in a homogenius culture to begin with, cause often if you try to mix tribes, you end up with a yugoslavia when the leader is gone.

5. Media: The best way to change a nation's identity quickly is through the media. A solid marketing campaign can change a lot of beliefs very quickly and can often act as a universal peer pressure, whether using newspapers, radios, tv, the internet, or even town meetings.

District 9 is probably one of the best examples of this in recent history. Besides being a brilliant scifi movie, It provided a window of what the shanty towns of south africa and brought african culture to the world stage.

If used properly, it could be used to generate a new generation of African movie makers and allow social norms and morality to be exposed to the greater public consciousness.

Also I cannot stress the power of tv. In india, this has been one of the greatest liberators for women, because it shows them what they have available to them beyond what they been told by family. I don't know if something similar is happening in the various countries in africa, but it would be a good idea to do so.

6. Time: Note that all of these things will take time, blood, sweat and tears. Even if they succeed beyond your wildest dreams, it won't happen over night. You'll have to be patient in setting up something like this.

some links that you might find interesting

SA leads continent in prosperity
http://www.sagoodnews.co.za/benchmarking_progress/sa_leads_continent_in_prosperity_.html

Africa and the cold war
http://wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=1417&fuseaction=topics.links&group_id=103160

Nobel Peace Prize Goes to Micro-Loan Pioneers
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061013-nobel-peace.html

Wiki - genocide in africa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

Albinos in East Africa fear for lives after killings
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34182250/

Witchcraft Problem in South Africa
http://www.rickross.com/reference/african_sects/african_sects8.html

Africa - Tsetse Flies
http://www.uen.org/utahlink/activities/view_activity.cgi?activity_id=3023

Disease and Mortality in Sub-Saharan Africa
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=dmssa

Malawi windmill boy with big fans
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8257153.stm

Condoms do sometimes fail, so abstinence is in fact safer. Not so much safer that abstinence-only education is a good idea (except in highly religious communities), though.

Good luck convincing the international community of that.