Discussion in 'Vs. Debates' started by Cancelled for A, Jun 13, 2012.
Thor and Hercules are also powerful gods. Surfer beats them.
When did SS defeat Thor.
When did he even fight Hercules?
Thor and Surfer are equals in power and strength.
By beats I mean is more powerful than.
Yeah, I dont see that. What can the Surfer do that Thor cant? Thor has driven off Galactus Himself.
I don't care to get into an unrelated and irrelevant argument so how about I change that to "Hercules and Loki are also powerful gods. Surfer would beat them."
Good luck to Mr. World Eater when Tom bombadile use's plot shields to somehow pull something from his ass to save middle earth.
Tom pulls opium from his ass then smokes it so he doesnt notice how horrifying his death is.
the only "victory" that the Surfer has over Thor came back when Loki tricked the Surfer into thinking Thor was evil, gave the Surfer all his power and sent him to Asgard. Thor sensed that the Surfer was good and just tanked everything the Surfer hit him with, without fighting back because he did not want to hurt the Surfer. He actually was able to knock Thor down. Then the Surfer realized that he had been duped and stopped. Thor stood up and recovered from the attacks almost instantly. The surfer is shown being scared shitless, thinking (paraphrased) holy shit that dude is powerful, boy am glad that he did not attack me and I would get my ass kicked if he ever did. Mind you that was the Surfer with not only his own power, but Loki's as well.
Every other time (2 I think) has been Thor kicking his ass.
The Surfer cannot do anything to really harm the Valar. Whereas the Surfer has a soul, which pretty much means that the Valar, even if the Surfer can tank all their physical attacks, can be affected spiritually.
As to Galactus, that would likely require the intervention of Eru. Given that he is eternal and omnipotent by nature, he is on a higher tier than Galactus.
Can you list the issues?
First battle that I mention was in Silver Surfer vol 1... number 11 I think.
Then they is the (in)famous Blood and Thunder roflstomp of Thor over pretty much everyone except Thanos and Odin.
I kind of remember another one... maybe it was in Infinity Crusade?
Why can the Surfer not harm them? What feats do they have? The Surfer has actually resisted Mephisto IIRC.
Why is Eru higher? Based on what? Do we have any details of the creation myth demonstrating his power?
And then the most recent one in astonishing thor
Silver Surfer #4 (first confrontation)
Silver Surfer #86 (double teams warrior madness Thor with Beta Ray Bill)
Infinity Watch #23 (double teams warrior madness Thor with Adam Warlock)
The Mighty Thor #2-3 has a brief fight, which is followed by a more extended throwdown in The Mighty Thor #4-5 of inconclusive results.
They are beings of pure spirit. They have nothing he can affect. Resisting Mephisto's magic is one thing. Actually affecting him directly and permanently is another. There is nothing there for him to hit or affect with his powers unless they choose to manifest in such a way. The Valar and their Maiar aides created what we would call the universe in Tolkien's legendarium, which includes galaxies, stars and such.
You have the acts depicted in the Silmarillion of course, where he sings the Ainur into existence (including said galaxy making Valar). Then he sings unformatted reality into existence. You have the bible which also defines Yahweh as Eternal (ie having no beginning and no end, therefore immune to temporal high jinks comic book wise) and Omnipotent (having the power to do absolutely anything). Remember, Tolkien's legendarium includes rigid pre Vatican 2 Catholocism as canon.
I have only peripherally kept up with comics the last couple of years. That recent one was also part of the throwdown between Odin and Galactus right?
But wasn't there another fight, maybe in Infinity Crusade, when Thor was possessed by the Goddess or something. I seem to remember three distinct confrontations prior to the current century.
Cosmic power allows complete manipulation of matter and energy and encountering spiritual entities is nothing new for Surfer, is it now?
Which the Surfer can travel to sense, just like he sensed life in the microverse. Is there a good online source as I'm not doubting you so much as my own bloody memory! I think I read Tolkien when I wass 11 - which was too long ago.
Is there a good online source where I can find the feats to save us going back and forward?
I don't think using the Bible is good idea, god's feats aren't exactly great, and quite frankly are amalgamations of other religions.
Spirits are neither matter nor energy in Marvel terms. You are confusing fighting a magical being with directly affecting spirits.
Encylopedia of Arda and wikipedia both have extensive Tolkien stuff listed.
Tolkien's work includes Catholic Doctrine and the real universe. Eru Illuvatar = YHWH. YHWH is defined as eternal and omnipotent.
On the grounds that 616 demons ARe actual demons there is nothing to say that SS affecting them means he cannot affact the Valar or Maiar.
Again, YHWH is multiple deities from another religion amalgamated into theirs. So not really a good comparison really.
You have essentially two/three versions of the Valar and the LotR cosmology.
The original vision Tolkien had of these dudes, they were pretty much like the Norse/Olympian gods and the world was this giant boat full of water in which the continents floated, which sailed through the ether.
The Silmarillion version of the creation myth is pretty similar to this original vision. The world as originally created is a flat Earth and the Sun and Moon when eventually created are flying boats with magic fruits in them. Then, during the Akallabeth business, Eru alters the entire universe and creates the modern universe as we know it.
The final version is mentioned in the Myths Transformed and in this the original/Silmarillion cosmology (such as the flat Earth and Moon/Sun business) is dismissed as in-universe claptrap invented by elves/humans that lacked the proper frame of reference to understand the Valar's revelations about the universe (which is supposed to be like ours from the beginning).
Eru is portrayed consistently as an omnipotent in all versions, though.
The surfer affects them physically. Not spiritually. If a Valar were to manifest physically he could affect the body. No valar has to do that though to use their powers.
It does not matter where YHWH coalesced from historically. Catholic doctrine/canon has him as a defined being. That doctrine is what is part of LotR.
Tolkien's Iluvatar is consistent with Catholic notions of Yahweh, where he is eternal and omnipotent.
Edit: already addressed, nvm.
I'm sorry but you're wanking LotR now, massively so. It is a matter of fact that the SS can affect matter, energy, use telepathy. He can also resist spiritual attacks:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3465/silversurfer199713312fj9.jpg - brings Puppetmaster back from astral plane
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/6062/crusades0333pw9.jpg -tanks Moondragon blast
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5589/annihilationheraldsofgakn4.jpg - takes on Proemial gods
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5159/annihilationsilversurfeay7.jpg - Creates blackhole1
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/5960/annihilationsilversurfekp8.jpg - Creates blackhole2
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/5941/silversurfer198800821esvf7.jpg - Escapes Soul Gem1
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7686/silversurfer198800822eslx8.jpg - Escapes Soul Gem2
http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/3348/silversurferv401217ux4.jpg - fight off reality warping
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o106/bigbran1/comic/InThyName2004.jpg - takes astral form
Of course it does, don't be silly. It's origin is quite importantand not to be handwaved just because it suits. Additionally considering 'God's feats are pretty awful it is not really a sound argument.
Now I agree this does indeed put Eru above both SS and Gal.
Yet he has never directly affected a spirit. At all. Spirits are not made of matter or energy.
I own almost every appearance of the Silver Surfer (and Thor incidentally) prior to 2006 or so.
The Valar can literallty sit there in spiritual form and be utterly immune to his attacks. Mind you they don't have to, since they are all more powerful than him.
The origin is not relevant because according to Catholic doctrine, YHWH has nothing to do with any of those things/fictional beings from which historically he likely evolved as a concept from.
Separate names with a comma.