Prove it. Prove it Prove it. That is actually not correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Thunder_gods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism So you are wrong.
He has never directly affected spirits, you are the one contending that he can. Proof falls to you. See above. Spirits btw in Tolkien are completely indestructible and protecting by fiat of ERU. When has the Surfer created a galaxy, because the Valar created everything in the universe except the other Ainur. Find me a statement in the Official Canon of the Catholic Church that states that YHWH derives in any way from that, because that is the only source that matters. We are not talking about historical concept YHWH. We are talking about Catholic Doctrine YHWH.[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astral_plane I have provided proof that he can affect things astrally (a spirit) which is where a lot of fiction comes from about immaterial beings et al and that my quote also mentions angels. So yes according to the evidence provided the Surfer can affect them. Needless to say that evidence has been provided that he can dimension travel, at will, travel in time, and even enter the microverse. You claim: You need to provide some form of quote to back this statement from Tolkien, thanks. Funny that they could war with one another in the series. So please provide quote saying they are imperishable. Yoyr previous claim. No proof provided to substantiate claim. It is now: Prove it. Now even taking this into account, Galactus' fight with his first herald literally destroyed galaxies, and as such means that the Valar and Maiar are capable of being destroyed by him. [/quote] You're bullshitting and the Catholic Church has nothing to do with this, it is about where the etymology of the belief came from which has been provided above as clear citations that Yahweh was a storm god with roots very similar to Zeus & Indra - both of whom battled a huge serpent being; and it is also likely why the devil has a trident; relates to a battle between Poseidon, Apollo and Zeus; also taking into account a battle between Vishnu and Shiva (who also held a trident).
Hope it is ok for me to answer, since at least in this claim he is right. Now the Eldar are immortal within Arda according to their right nature. But if a fea (or spirit) indwells in and coheres with a hrondo [> hroa] (or bodily form) that is not of its own choice but ordained, and is made of the flesh or substance of Arda itself,(25) then the fortune of this union must be vulnerable by the evils that do hurt to Arda, even if that union be by nature and purpose permanent. For in spite of this union, which is of such a kind that according to unmarred nature no living person incarnate may be without a fea, nor without a hrondo [> hroa], yet fea and hrondo [> hroa] are not the same things; and though the fea cannot be broken or disintegrated by any violence from without, the hrondo [> hroa] can be hurt and may be utterly destroyed. If then the hrondo [> hroa] be destroyed, or so hurt that it ceases to have health, sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the fea to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the fea departs from it, and its function being at an end its coherence is unloosed, and it returns again to the general hron [> orma] of Arda.(26) Then the fea is, as it were, houseless, and it becomes invisible to bodily eyes (though clearly perceptible by direct awareness to other fear). This destruction of the hrondo [> hroa], causing death or the unhousing of the fea, was soon experienced by the immortal Eldar, when they awoke in the marred and overshadowed realm of Arda. Indeed in their earlier days death came more readily; for their bodies were then less different (27) from the bodies of Men, and the command of their spirits over their bodies less complete. -From Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, Morgoth's Ring. Souls in the LotR universe cannot be destroyed. They can, however, be hurt, tortured, captured, diminished or other nasty things. But not destroyed, period.
@ Murazor Okay fair enough. Now we know that SS can affect things astrally but as you state it is likely beyond his ability to destroy them. I'll see if I can find anything - however Galactus can: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Surfer
Didn't Galactus get beat by a super Celestial? And didn't he need Future Franklin Richards to help him win? This proves Galactus isn't exactly omnipotent. Now unless Eru is proven likewise, we have a stomp.
I think Eru is out of the equation as potentially being too powerful...but the Valar and Maiar, not soi much.
Well, he is obviously intended to be one, but if you want some writing from Tolkien that actually puts Eru, Iluvatar and omnipotent in the same sentence. 'Tar-kalion, for instance: I think that is a king's name, for I've often come across the prefix tar in names of the great, and ar in the corresponding Adunaic name (on the system I told you about) is the stem of the word for "king". On the other hand turkildi and eruhinim, though evidently equivalent, don't mean the same thing. The one means, I think, 'lordly men', and the other is rather more startling, for it appears to be the name of God the Omnipotent with a patronymic ending: in fact, unless I am quite wrong, "Children of God". Indeed, I need not have queried the words eruvo and iluvataren: there can't really be any doubt that eruvo is the sacred name Eru with a suffixed element meaning "from", and that therefore iluvataren means the same thing. -From The Notion Club Papers. Part of Sauron Defeated in the History of Middle Earth.
If we were trying to quantify the Adeptus Arbites, we don't turn to Judge Dredd as a source (even if he's obviously a primary influence.)
You're saying that to "quantify" YHWH, you will cite the older myths on which YHWH is based. I'm saying that's like citing "Journey to the West" to quantify Goku of Dragonball.
That's just rubbish as your analogy compares one that is myth the other media - and therefore completely bogus. The fact still remains that Christianity incorporated lots of myths and godss into it from other sources - Churches being just one as they usually rested on pagan grounds of worship.
Yes, but the YHWH character is still SEPARATE! Once you take something from its original context and adapt it, it is NO LONGER THE SAME. You don't cite "King Arthur of Le Morte d'Arthur" to quantify "Giles le Breton." You don't cite "The Seven Samurai" to quantify "The Magnificent Seven." You don't cite "Darth Vader" to quantify "Dark Helmet." You don't cite "Captain America (616)" to quantify "Captain America (Ultimate.)" The second character/thing in each example is obviously, and often openly, copied from the first, and yet you would never use the first to quantify the second! The fact that YHWH is copied and similar does not mean they are the same!
Kinda missing the point, massively so, and making excuses to refuse to accept evidence. Yahweh as listed is a storm god and origins are in the link below. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanite_religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Thunder_gods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism This may be a poor choice of words on your behalf
This is totally irrelevant. All that matters is Tolkien's conception of God, since that is what Iluvatar is. Tolkien intended Iluvatar to be God as he understood him - The omnipotent creator of everything. Wikipedia articles about the nature and history of worship of the actual God are nonsequitor. This is about Tolkien's conception.
Not quite as Thad was trying to use Eru as a jump point to link it to the Christian religion, which I have shown is amalgamated from other sources. Trying to tie it to Christianity is somewhat of a misnomer to be sure. Now as to Tolkien's intent that as to Eru being functiuonally all-powerful within the setting, this may well be true. Can you see the difference now? The other issue are the Valar for which we have no proof that they are beyond either Galactus or the Surfer - as yet. They may well exist, but no one has presented them, i was hoping Murazor would do that so we could close the debate and move on. *Sigh* Maybe he'll do it later.
I can provide quotes of feats that it took the Valars countless "ages", as in thousands of years to design the planet. They're a little contradictory in the story.
Yup, go for it otherwise this debate isn't going anywhere without it. We need some kind of comparison.
Well, just putting this out there, but Surfer has been shown multiple times to be completely ignorant and powerless in spiritual matters. During Infinity Gauntlet he melded souls with Adam Warlock and even as far along as Blood And Thunder he said that he still didn't understand what it meant. In Silver Surfer/Warlock: Resurrection, Surfer was completely clueless as to the events that were transpiring. Most notably though, when Warlock fought and defeated Mephisto in his own realm it was by using the ambient spirit energy to fuel his Soul Gem. If Surfer's power cosmic had anywhere near similar control over spirits as he did energy he wouldn't have been completely meaningless against Mephisto.
Follows assorted info-dumps about Tolkien's last thoughts about the cosmology and final revisions of the texts. Make of these what you will. This descends from the oldest forms of the mythology - when it was still intended to be no more than another primitive mythology, though more coherent and less 'savage'. It was consequently a 'Flat Earth' cosmogony (much easier to manage anyway): the Matter of Numenor had not been devised. It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair. (Men are really only interested in Men and in Men's ideas and visions.) The High Eldar living and being tutored by the demiurgic beings must have known, or at least their writers and loremasters must have known, the 'truth' (according to their measure of understanding). What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centred upon actors, such as Feanor) handed on by Men in Numenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas. At that point (in reconsideration of the early cosmogonic parts) I was inclined to adhere to the Flat Earth and the astronomically absurd business of the making of the Sun and Moon. But you can make up stories of that kind when you live among people who have the same general background of imagination, when the Sun 'really' rises in the East and goes down in the West, etc. When however (no matter how little most people know or think about astronomy) it is the general belief that we live upon a 'spherical' island in 'Space' you cannot do this any more. One loses, of course, the dramatic impact of such things as the first 'incarnates' waking in a starlit world - or the coming of the High Elves to Middle-earth and unfurling their banners at the first rising of the Moon. Next, a revised version of the creation myth, very unlike what is told in the Silmarillion. The Story, it seems, should follow such a line as this. The entry of the Valar into Ea at the beginning of Time. The choosing of the Kingdom of Arda as their chief abiding place (? by the highest and noblest of the Ainur,(5) to whom Iluvatar had intended to commit the care of the Eruhini). Manwe and his companions elude Melkor and begin the ordering of Arda, but Melkor seeks for them and at last finds Arda,(6) and contests the kingship with Manwe. This period will, roughly, correspond to supposed primeval epochs before Earth became habitable. A time of fire and cataclysm. Melkor disarrayed the Sun so that at periods it was too hot, and at others too cold. Whether this was due to the state of the Sun, or alterations in the orbit of Earth, need not be made precise: both are possible. But after a battle Melkor is driven out from Earth itself. (The First Battle?) He finds he can only come there in great secrecy. At this time he begins first to turn most to cold and darkness. His first desire (and weapon) had been fire and heat. It was in the wielding of flame that Tulkas (? originally Vala of the Sun) defeated him in the First Battle. Melkor therefore comes mostly at night and especially to the North in winter. (It was after the First Battle that Varda set certain stars as ominous signs for the dwellers in Arda to see.) The Valar to counteract this make the Moon. Out of earth-stuff or Sun? This is to be a subsidiary light to mitigate night * (as Melkor had made it), and also a 'vessel of watch and ward' to circle the world.(7) But Melkor gathered in the Void spirits of cold &c. and suddenly assailed it, driving out the Vala Tilion.(8) The Moon was thereafter long while steerless and vagrant and called Rana (neuter).(9) [If Tulkas came from the Sun, then Tulkas was the form this Vala adopted on Earth, being in origin Auron (masculine). But the Sun is feminine; and it is better that the Vala should be Aren, a maiden whom Melkor endeavoured to make his spouse (or ravished);(10) she went up in a flame of wrath and anguish and (* [marginal note] But not to drive it away. It was necessary to have an alternation, 'because in Ea according to the Tale nothing can endure endlessly without weariness and corruption.') her spirit was released from Ea, but Melkor was blackened and burned, and his form was thereafter dark, and he took to darkness. (The Sun itself was Anar neuter or Ur, cf. Rana, Ithil.)] The Sun remained a Lonely Fire, polluted by Melkor, but after the death of the Two Trees Tilion returned to the Moon, which remained therefore an enemy of Melkor and his servants and creatures of night - and so beloved of Elves later &c. After the capture of the Moon Melkor begins to be more bold again. He establishes permanent seats in the North deep underground. From thence proceeds the secret corruption which perverts the labours of the Valar (especially of Aule and Yavanna). The Valar grow weary. At length discovering Melkor and where he dwells they seek to drive him out again, but Utumno proves too strong. Varda has preserved some of the Primeval Light (her original chief concern in the Great Tale). The Two Trees are made. The Valar make their resting place and dwellings in Valinor in the West. Now one of the objects of the Trees (as later of the Jewels) was the healing of the hurts of Melkor, but this could easily have a selfish aspect: the staying of history - not going on with the Tale. This effect it had on the Valar. They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-earth was left too little tended, and too little protected against Melkor. Towards the end of the Days of Bliss, the Valar find the tables turned. They are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his evil spirits and monsters; and can only themselves come there secretly and briefly (Orome and Yavanna mainly). This period must be brief. Both sides know that the coming of the Children of God is imminent. Melkor desires to dominate them at once with fear and darkness and enslave them. He darkens the world [added in margin: for 7 years?] cutting off all vision of the sky so far as he can, and though far south (it is said) this was not effective. From the far North (where [they are] dense) to the middle (Endor)(11) great clouds brood. Moon and stars are invisible. Day is only a dim twilight at full. Only light [is] in Valinor. Varda arises in her might and Manwe of the Winds and strive with the Cloud of Unseeing. But as fast as it is rent Melkor closes the veil again - at least over Middle-earth. Then came the Great Wind of Manwe, and the veil was rent. The stars shine out clear even in the North (Valakirka) and after the long dark seem terribly bright. It is in the dark just before that the Elves awake. The first thing they see in the dark is the stars. But Melkor brings up glooms out of the East, and the stars fade away west. Hence they think from the beginning of light and beauty in the West. The Coming of Orome. The Third Battle and the captivity of Melkor. The Eldar go to Valinor. The clouds slowly disperse after the capture of Melkor though Utumno still belches. It is darkest eastward, furthest from the breath of Manwe. The March of the Eldar is through great Rains? Men awake in an Isle amid the floods and therefore welcome the Sun which seems to come out of the East. Only when the world is drier do they leave the Isle and spread abroad. It is only Men that met Elves and heard the rumours of the West that go that way. For the Elves said: 'If you delight in the Sun, you will walk in the path it goes.' The coming of Men will therefore be much further back.(12) This will be better; for a bare 400 years is quite inadequate to produce the variety, and the advancement (e.g. of the Edain) at the time of Felagund.(13) Men must awake while Melkor is still in Arda? - because of their Fall.(14) Therefore in some period during the Great March. Some notes about Varda's star-making under Tolkien's late stage conception of a round Earth legendarium. The mythological association of Varda with the stars is of twofold origin. In the 'demiurgic period', before the establishment of Arda 'the Realm', while the Valar in general (including an unnamed host of others who never came to Arda)(1) were labouring in the general construction of Ea (the World or Universe), Varda was in Eldarin and Numenorean legend said to have designed and set in their places most of the principal stars; but being (by destiny and desire) the future Queen of Arda, in which her ultimate function lay, especially as the lover and protectress of the Quendi, she was concerned not only with the great Stars in themselves, but also in their relations to Arda, and their appearance therefrom (and their effect upon the Children to come). Such forms and major patterns, therefore, as we call (for instance) the Plough, or Orion, were said to be her designs. Thus the Valacirca or 'Sickle of the Gods', which was one of the Eldarin names for the Plough, was, it was said, intended later to be a sign of menace and threat of vengeance over the North in which Melkor took up his abode (Varda was the most foresighted of all the Valar, possessing the clearest memory of the Music and Vision in which she had played only a small part as actor or player, but had listened most attentively).(2) Later, when the Valar took refuge from Melkor, and the imminent ruin of Arda, and built and fortified Valinor in Aman, it was Varda who made the great dome above Valinor, to keep out any spirits or spies of Melkor. It was made as a simulacrum of the true firmament (Tar-menel), and the patterns were therein repeated, but with apparent stars (or 'sparks': tinwi) of greater relative size to the total visible area. So that the lesser firmament of Valinor (Nur-menel) was very brilliant. From this work (chiefly: but also her original demiurgic labours were included) she was called 'Star-kindler'. Note that Velen properly referred to the real stars of Ea (but could also naturally be transferred to their imagines). The words tinwe, nille' (Vtin 'spark', Vngil 'silver glint') and Sindarin tim, gil referred properly to the Valinorian imagines. Hence Quenya Tintalle from tinta cause to sparkle, but also Elentari Queen of Stars'; Sindarin Elbereth, but also Gilthoniel.(3) Generic commentary about Melkor's loss of power and transformation into Morgoth... Melkor Morgoth. Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power).(1) (He was to make I devise I begin; Manwe (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.) Later, he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined. Note that in the early age of Arda he was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat. The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'.(2) Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a powerlevel with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwe at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze. Either Manwe must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned selfabasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.* As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.
