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Starcraft II

Discussion in 'Games & Gaming' started by pebbleinthepond, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. So i'm sort of getting back into the Starcraft II scene, and currently i'm on a 6(7?) win streak. This thread can serve as both general discusion for HotS, any Starcraft tournaments and livestreams(i always miss them unfortunately), and of course i want to ask a brief question.

    So if this thread goes nowhere, can i at least get these questions answered? :p

    1. I play as Terran, and i was wondering the best counter for the standard MMM. Usually, i just go heavy on the medivacs(10-15+) and that'll give me the advantage as i can stim constantly and still keep at full health.
    2. In TvT, Banshees seem like a horrible counter and seem only useful against buildings/harassment. They're just pwned utterly by marines, which is illogical to me. Of course in TvZ they just end up owning, but still. I wish they did some splash damage with their rockets.
    3. How nerfed are Siege Tanks, honestly? I remember back in SC+BW and even early SCII you could set up 10 Siege Tanks and be utterly impenetrable to ground based assaults. Now you just get pushed over.
    4. How nerfed are turrets? I can almost go 1v1 with them as a Banshee, and they seem only useful for staving off the odd muta or two. With any real air attack they just get bowled over.
    5. Are Thors more useful? Back in the early days they were quite useful, but i could never get them to work better than the standard MMM due to expensiveness and time it takes to produce.
    6. Are Battlecruisers good or bad? I don't really want to build all the way up to them, and it'd be really nice if i could just have 1 or 2 be blasting away in the back, but it just doesn't seem cost effective. A large Battlecruiser army is not feasible because by the time you get 10/12 built up the enemy can build 50-70 of Hydra/Marine/Stalker easily. They don't do enough damage to justify building all the way up to them just to be countered by Hydra/Marine/Stalker. At least that's how they were the last time i played them a while back.
    7. How bad are bunkers? What's the optimal unit composition for bunkers? Is the extra unit slots really worth it and do they really make the bunker actually useful?
    8. What's the best way to ensure the safety of my third? On most maps i usually just end up having my third harassed way too much, or just getting beaten because my army is too split up. Building my, well, buildings all the way to the third doesn't seem very cost effective or safe either, due to the aforementioned issue.
    9. Will you be buying HotS when i comes out? At launch? Later?
    High Bronze/Mid Silver player, so don't make fun of me for my misconceptions :p
     
  2. Ryan

    Ryan Ghetto Rocket Scientist

    Terran player here, but play Toss quite a bit as well.

    Played SC2 VERY heavily a few months back, made it into plat and just... stopped, for some reason. I still play fairly often, but mostly custom games like Risk and Phantom, plus some 4 V 4.

    I've seen BC's used by pro players occasionally, but their more of a treat to see actually used.

    HotS is the ONE game I'm looking forward too on PC now. Abduct looks OP as hell in it's current form, but being an alpha any real judgments on balance are silly at best. I do want spider mines, they look awesome! Mothership Core looks like a nice touch to Protoss, and if Tempest stays in it'll make high level pro games very lulzy when their getting used to it.

    Perhaps we could do some 2 v 2 /4 v 4 sometime?
     
  3. Widow mines do look awesome as hell, i just hope they don't get nerfed at all. Abduct looks like even more of a Siege Tank nerf(oh, you put Siege Tanks on the high ground? YOINK!), definitely going to be pissing me off as a terran player. Fortunately though i tend to go the standard MMM heavy on the Medivac, with Siege Tanks only used as a little bit of base defense for light harass. The annoying one, however, is going to be the mineral blockage still with the Protoss. Zerg and Protoss just toss down 2 spines/cannons and it's all taken care of... but Terrans? Shit out of luck, you have to be constantly watching or pouring the couple hundred minerals to put several turrets around your bases.

    I'm not talking one or two, though it would be nice to be able to do that after i get my MMM up to full steam, but are BC armies effective? Back in early SCII 10-15 BCs were a force to be reckoned with, especially with some light ground or tanks. But now? I played a game with a friend were i got a large army of BC and tanks with some light marine and that was all just completely shredded by some Hydra.

    Tempest... meh. I'd rather see a Carrier buff than the Tempest. Though their range does look stupidly long. They're slower, or at least seem to be, than even BCs, so catching them with Marines is easy. Honestly, overall Protoss needs tougher air. I dislike how most Protoss armies seem to be ground based balls of death when IIRC their fleets are supposed to be canonically awesome.

    I wouldn't mind some 2v2 or 1v1 practice. I'm not a huge fan of team games because i feel they don't really reflect true skill and don't, i feel, help as much laddering in 1v1 as just actually playing 1v1. They're nice for fun once in a while, but then again i don't like being on a team, so the fun is low for me.

    And yeah, i'm most likely going to be snatching up HotS on launch. Looks awesome.
     
  4. Ryan

    Ryan Ghetto Rocket Scientist

    Terran might have an easier time with the oracle because heavy viking production is par the course versus Protoss regardless. And if Protoss has oracles, their pouring resources that could have been used for colossus production, which should help you out. I'm looking forward to seeing more gate-heavy builds! I wasn't around for BW so don't have any special attachment to the carrier, but can certainly say that it LOOKS far more badass then the gotdamn tempest.

    Might be in the navy by the time HotS comes out, but oh well. Can't wait to see Funday Monday: HotS edition :D
     
  5. Bryan

    Bryan <font color=yellow>The Great Goof!</font>

    Siege tanks are a good counter to marines and mauraders. It's gas heavy, but you'll also need to invest in some sort of wall to protect the tanks. Then you can try a few ghosts to EMP the medivacs or vikings, though I'd go for ghosts. It's heavy micro, so... the brute force way is just siege tanks, lots of them, and staggered so they dont all die.

    Banshees do suck but if you can sneak a few in to someone with limited AA and hit them they're nice. BCs... worthless. I don't think turrets are 'nerfed' because they are effective at scaring away small groups of mutas and banshees, and that's their purpose. If someone has enough banshees or mutas to steamroll through 3 or 4 turrets in the mineral line then you're doing it wrong, IMO.

    Bunkers aren't bad. If you can successfully bunker rush you'll probably get the guy to rage quit 1/3 of the time and then win when they rage quit in 5 minutes. But bunkers for defense do suck unless you're using them in some counter strategy. In one game I went to expand, but a few supply depots to block the ramp, but they were also using zerglings to harass so I put a bunker there with some marines just to prevent the harassment.
     
  6. Well, quite honestly it depends on the level of your game and which modus (1v1, 2v2, etc all play different.)
    Teching for BC's is pretty meaningless, but when you have them, concentrate on them and use them over cliffs. Do not try and fight a large ground army on open field with just BC's.

    As for your third expansion; the best way to protect it is being offensive. Pressure your enemy. Don't sit there, split up and let them pick you off. Get in his face and smash ;p

    Tanks and Thors can be very good, if you spread them out a little or position them good. But yeah. Dont only build these. You'll need other troops too. Banshee's are so-so, if your enemy is bad enough they are good.

    As for what to do against MMM; well, I only play zerg so no clue what terra does against them. If he only builds a few marauders, hellions will do if you can flank with them.

    And as Bryan said, turrets are a defense against harassment, nothing more, nothing less.
     
  7. It's not that i have a special attachment to the carrier(although i was a pretty heavy BW/SC player), it's just that i feel Protoss should have a stronger air force for a race that's supposed to be all about massive incredibly strong fleets. The Tempest is a nice addition - if they had kept the carrier, or perhaps added another light air unit, perhaps a protoss counterpart to the banshee?

    As for the whole oracle mineral blockage thing, it's just another little annoyance measure that can do serious harm if you don't pay attention. Say, if you have to pull vikings off for a bit/just don't remember to throw a few vikings over.

    How expensive are the Tempests though? I wonder how cost effective a Tempest+ a few phoenix will be for mineral line harassment. Probably not very unless your enemy is completely tied up/stupid.


    How useful are Siege Tanks unsieged? I remember in SC/BW they were almost useless, and still haven't gotten to testing that out. Wasn't their siege nerfed so that the mobile could be better?

    I've never been too good with ghosts, but mostly because i haven't tried them very much since early SCII. Are they best cloaked and mixed in with your army, or should they be played apart and sneaky? Or mix of both as applies?

    With banshees i kinda got a bit over excited and it almost lost me a game. See, the game previous a Zerg had spammed Roaches at me without transferring to Hydra at all. I built up a small army of 10-15 Banshees while staving Roach attacks with 5-6 Sieged tanks on high ground and a good wall in, and needless to say i punished him hard for that. But the next game i overestimated them and went almost completely for them, so i was very surprised to find that they did shit against Marines. I was saved in that game by the fact that my opponent doesn't scout and apparently just stopped expanding at his second. Plus, a bit preemptive GG when i took out 3 30 Marine+3 Tank armies sent against me consecutively. I guess he just didn't expand, whereas i was on my 5th(although after a very nasty contain for about half the game).

    As for bunker defense, i suppose a supply wall is more cost effective?

    EDIT: And for turrets, i suppose i'm just stuck in my SC ways where a nice little turret wall meant nothing but BCs or guardians could get through.
     
  8. Reaper_93

    Reaper_93 SB's Fav. Dungeon Master

    1. This question is pretty broad, but I assume in TvT? There isn't really a "best counter", it's a mirror matchup. How you use what you make is much more important than what you make in mirrors unless you overextend your tech tree or expansions to the point of vulnerability. Sieged tanks kill MMM pretty well if you have a little marine buffer in the way, and vikings kill medivacs (and are good for granting vision to your tanks), but all of that is useless against drops basically so "counter" isn't a good word for this situation.

    2. This isn't a question, but Banshees are ok in all matchups. They're only for harass or all-ins, though, building a squadron of banshees tends not to work.

    3. Siege tanks are fine. They used to be utterly stupid strong before they brought their damage in siege mode down by a ton, even stronger than they were in BW. Now they aren't as strong as in BW, but the game isn't about board control so much overall in Wings of Liberty, so that's not as big a problem. Tanks are still the best unit at it, though, out of any unit in the game.

    4. Turrets are the most powerful anti-air defense structure and as a Zerg player I would kill to trade my spore crawlers for them. They can get +1 range and deal 12+12 damage, which gives them the potential for the most range of any anti-air structure and also the best damage per hit and best damage per second of any anti-air structure.

    5. Yes. Thors are commonly used as units in specific situations, and those situations are: all-in vs Protoss (breaks force fields) or if Protoss is using phoenixes for some reason; to kill banshee based builds in TvT or a a general supporty unit or to kill ravens; as a support unit to zone mutalisks in TvZ. Their anti-ground capabilities are ok but their anti-air is where they shine.

    6. They are good at a few certain things but hard to get. Yamato cannon to break siege lines comes to mind.

    7. Bunkers are amazing because their relative cheapness means you can build them when you aren't sure of an impending attack and not waste much money if you're wrong. There isn't really an "optimal unit" to put in bunkers, but marines tend to be better than marauders since they need the hp of the bunker more and more fit inside. Marines are the second best sustained dps/money ratio unit in the game (Zerglings with perfect surface area are the 1st, so that rarely is practically the case and marines are therefore better) but their hp is low so they benefit a lot from the bunker tanking damage.

    8. Make a planetary fortress and a couple of turrets. Put a tank or bunker there if you really want, but the PF and turrets should be sufficient.

    9. I will be buying HotS ASAP because it addresses all of the things I was frustrated with about Zerg over a year ago that have only since been half-fixed. (They were given good nonfrangible AOE with the buff of fungal growth, but they still lack a way to pressure bases in the midgame without all-inning).

    You have it backwards. Turrets in SC2 rape mutalisks, turrets in SC1 were useless against mutalisks.
     

  9. This i can answer. Unsieged tanks actually got higher single target DPS than sieged ones. Mostly used as a small taskforce to take out expansions when you need to be able to retreat quickly..
     
  10. Wouldn't marines w/ stim be better for quickly cleaning up an expansion? Perhaps with some siege back up or marauders.

    It's to my knowledge that tanks are still awful alone - as in, 3 or 4 tanks will lose to 12-16 speedlings.


    SC2 turrets better? Really? Perhaps at harassment against 3-4 mutas. Meh, probably be true. I was horrible at air and AA in SC1.




    Another broad question: What's the best ground match up, on an even plane, for speedlings? Cost effective, and etc.
    Or are you just better off falling back when engaged with speedlings to a wall in or just siege fire. I know sieges still rape speedlings, but everything else without going air doesn't seem cost effective.
     
  11. Yes, i mean if you are playing mech.


    Also, best matchup for speedlings is... everything ground.

    Seriously, zerglings counter everything if properly microed and supported. Send in some roaches to draw fire while zerglings murder.
     
  12. So my choices for countering speedlings as a ground based Terran amount to fuck all? Retreat to high ground, stim and medivacs with some siege tanks?
    How effective are grounded vikings versus zerglings? Or would i just be better off going for the supply/mineral amount of tanks/marines? I know they have a bonus vs light, but does that bonus make up for the cost?

    (i'm still wishing that banshees did some splash damage. They just seem so bad against what they should be good against.)
     
  13. Bryan

    Bryan <font color=yellow>The Great Goof!</font>

    I just came out of a game where it was me, terran, and protoss versus one of each.​
    I had a mixed army of marines, medivacs, mauraders, plus four thors, and about ten siege tanks. It was a strange army build, yeah. The problem was that playing that 3 v 3. In the end though it worked pretty well. I was able to smash the protoss player, my siege tanks destroyed the thors from the terran (he went more into thors than I did, which I used primarily for AA) and it worked well against the zerg who stayed roaches and then corruptors and then broods.​
    In the end we won because we were able to get into their base after taking out expansions. It was Arkhan citadel, I think. But yeah, they took out three of our expansions (two of mine!) but they never got into our base. Plus an early canon rush slowed them, lol.​
    If you can get a Marine army to stim itself over and over you can do some good self-inflicted damage. If they don't have medivacs. That's usually an early game harassment though and a skileld player won't pre-emptively stim. Though you can always trick a good player into a stim if you're lucky.​
     
  14. Reaper_93

    Reaper_93 SB's Fav. Dungeon Master

    "Countering" is a pretty bad word to use all the time, because we tend to think of "counters" as the rock-paper-scissors Unit A vs. Unit B bonus damage effect, when in reality "countering" things is a lot more about execution.

    You "counter" Zerglings by not letting them get a surround and having your army in a good position. Your army as it gets larger naturally becomes more effective against Zerglings because Terran units are ranged and can all shoot in a big clump, while Zerglings can only attack adjacent units, and thus as unit size increases the second rank and beyond of a Terran army can contribute while the second rank and beyond of Zerglings is milling about waiting for the guy ahead of them to die so they can melee things. AOE damage helps, too, so hellions (especially because of +damage vs light) and tanks (which kill zerglings in one shot with splash, except if the lings have +1 carapace, but then if you have +1 attack on your tanks no amount of carapace will prevent one-shotting, which makes +1 attack on your siege tanks really important).

    No. Landed vikings do not counter anything :p
     

  15. About the vikings, not at all. And your best bet is to have a ton of marines to soak up damage while your tanks shell the lings.
     
  16. I suppose a better word would be most effective.

    I can't really explain why, but don't usually use hellions. I suppose my micro is just bad with them, but it would be good to get my skill up with them as they do seem to be useful. .

    I hate vikings :mad: The fact that they are so necessary just makes me hate them more.

    How much does the game rely on early to mid game harass? My tactics usually favor not harassing much early game with maybe a few banshees hitting the eco, and then just staving off their harass/just not making it cost effective for them to attack me and then sending out one huge push to just bowl them over.

    Is that a viable tactic at higher levels or am i better off just losing the odd couple games to get myself used to early/mid game harass?
     
  17. Gecko4lif

    Gecko4lif Tristitia

    They counter the fuck out of works lol.

    Over produce viking. Kill collosus-> Broods lords -> Mother ship. Land in mineral line. Drink the sweet sweet tears.
     
  18. Blue flame hellions completely tear up those speed-lings with speed that you wouldn't be able to believe. So many burnt carcasses left on the ground. Against zerg, I tend to never go for any marines or marauders. I usually start off with hellion-tank to counter any possible ground army and if there are early mutas; I build thors, many thors. In mid to late game, lift some of my factories from their reactors and build star ports to counter the inevitable mass of brood lords. Works pretty well so far!
     
  19. What's the best counter for early Roach aggression?

    Assuming you see it early on. I always seem to be caught with my pants down when it comes to staving off Roaches.
     
  20. Double post, but responding to the one quoted above. I just tried out that tactic, and got utterly crushed by a Zerg player. Now, it might have something to do with the fact that he had been placed top 8 in the Masters and had been in top 25(or maybe top 8 there too) in four consecutive seasons, but still.

    It was my first attempt, so my timings were a little shitty, but my Hellion play was just horrible. Cost effectiveness of about dick. How can i most effective position them to guarantee their effectiveness, even if i'm not constantly doing tons of micro with them?

    What timing am i aiming for with the Hellions, and what else should i build to support the Hellion and Tank? Marines, obviously, but what's a good balance between the three?
     
  21. Never, ever, use your hellions as meat shields. They are extremely fragile units and I usually keep them in the back just to burn off the zerglings on my tanks. A very effective meat shield to keep in the front of the line is, of course, the thor. Keeping several SCVs around to repair should also help in survivability. The most important thing to remember about using a mech heavy army is that you are not very mobile. You harass the enemy, and you try and force an engagement where you are defending and you'll win. Contain the zerg and stay off of creep unless you're sure you have the advantage.

    Remember to try and keep the zerg player off balance or invest a significant amount in base defenses just by annoying his mining operations and scout constantly. Have kill squads of 4 hellions roaming the field looking for drones or easy pickings. If they get in trouble, you can easily run away. Drops are also highly effective due to the rather immobile nature of the mech army. Those medivacs might not be able to heal anything, but you can easily transition into vikings if need be.

    If it is an early roach push, you might have a bit of trouble. I run this build because of the fact that zerg usually expand first now forgoing early agression, because by the time that the zerg attack with roaches, I have tanks on the field sieged up.

    As for the timing, you should go for a double gas, make a single marine or none at all depending on the situation, drop a reactor and a factory, follow it up with another factory, reactor swap with the factory and start hellion production followed by your tank. I've also found that marines don't do terribly well with tank hellion. Marauders might do well, though I haven't tried that. Thors make for excellent front line damage takers as I pointed out above, and they will also benefit from your mech upgrades. This build is all about constantly keeping your zerg player off balance with harassment, knowing exactly what he's doing with hellion scouts, and forcing an engage where you have superior positioning. It takes a whole lot of apm to keep it up, but there's nothing like sight of the giant puddle of blood where the zerg army used to be before they ran into your siege line or the line of crispy drones to make it all worth it. Good luck!
     
  22. I think i'll have to practice the APM there on bots before i do that in actual ladder.

    Although, don't Speedlings have the same move speed or near enough even off creep as Hellions?

    The problem in my game was that i had rushed for all mech and almost completely neglected air except for five or six Thors. I missed my timing on the push(looking back at the replay if i had pushed when i was waiting for my 2-2 mech i would've beaten the timing on his mutas and forced him to either engage my Thors head on or try to base race me). Unfortunately, i waited, and his muta harass was very painful and annoying because my Thors just couldn't keep up.

    Especially because i had idiodically walled the center of my base with factories, meaning that the Mutas could stay well away from even the marines i could rush.
     
  23. Yes, yes they do. But they have this awful tendency to catch on fire :p Nothing else that the zerg has can really keep up.
     
  24. Speaking of fire, how quickly should i go for blue flame?
     
  25. Terran isn't worth playing after the most recent Queen change. The level of micro required to slow down a zerg means your macro suffers. There's a reason why no terrans went T8 in GSL

    That said, I still have good results with early marine pressure. I guess technically it's "cheese" but it tends to be effect, or at least effective-esq, especially on smaller maps.
     

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