Tactics: Let's conquer an alien planet.

You're assuming that the efficiency of fusion drives scales linearly, which we have foamy's word on that they don't. The Audacity's engine is significantly more efficient than the asteroid tugs. However, the Audacity is also the upper-bound for a fusion drive of this tech level.
@Foamy, very un-urgent question. This one can wait. Were we to try and build a fusion candle in the atmosphere of L-III, would the fact that it's in an atmosphere allow us to scale it up? Would that assist with cooling?

No, I'm assuming that the power of an engine scales linearly, and that is because, if you can't scale up your engine you just build another and duct tape them together. Assuming that power only scaled linearly was actually the height of conservatism. You don't need radiators with such a system because you can just take in extra mass from the gas giant, dump your waste heat into it, and then dump it back into the giant, which is both a ridiculously large radiator and a hell of a heatsink.

As for Foamy's statements:

So power per unit mass is about the best we can achieve for a radiatively cooled fusion ship. That's not the same as maximum scale and doesn't necessarily apply to an open-cycle cooled one.

The actual infectious part of the trojan is almost pure vanilla, targeted at a single, common, Lamprey computer platform. Certain aspects of it are specifically aimed at Lamprey scientific radio telescope pointing hardware, an area which is not noted for being a high priority for malware attack.

Tracing whether or not it was the work of a single person is not immediately obvious.

You're fine right up until the 'build nanobots' part. Sorry.

EDIT:

Ryss, the Audacity is open-cycle cooled. By far the biggest way it has of shedding heat is the torch itself; the gigantic radiators are only there to deal with the leftovers. You don't want to know how big those radiators would be if that wasn't the case, trust me.

Interesting, so cells can't make any flavor of nanobot?

Oh no. Much, much, much larger. At a mere four hundred million square metres (note that this is in fact smaller than the Audacity's current radiating surface!) you'd have radiator fins made out of 20,850K pure plasma. If it was a black body!

Which would actually be pretty awesome, but is obviously not true. If the radiators maintain the temperature I designed them to have, they would need to be square blackbodies around 3,200 kilometres on a side. Assuming no inefficiencies elsewhere.

Hrrrmmm. I'm trying to find where that temperature comes from. Summary says 4.2exawatt, half of that would require about four hundred million meters squared assuming 4000k .5 emissivity boron or similar droplets. Perhaps my calculator is off, and I'd rather just take your word for it than work it out by hand.

In any case, we may have maxed out our power-to-mass ratio, but there's nothing stopping us, or any other plateau-civ, from scaling the drive up or just bolting multiple copies together is there?

Even with that power-to-mass ratio a Notmoon sized candle would be capable of solar system engineering or decent interstellar travel using a smaller gas giant than LIII, and that's assuming there was only ever one of them.

Edit: Can we assume from the fact that the mass of L-IV is not given in the breakdown that it's irrelevant for story purposes?

Thats an interesting question.

It's a candle burning on each end, which means it pushes the planet with the "downward" end, and the other end pushes back against the candle.

Considering the relative size of LIII, I doubt notmoon could push it.

Then again, I don't think we've investigated LIII properly. I think we need to drop a probe into it. Something about strikes me as a bit...odd.

You mean like Galileo?

Hrm.. How many Mappers have we deployed? Or did we deply all of them? If we did, how long using 3% of our PvN's production abilities would it take to manufacture a suitable one shot probe to drop into L3? and by suitable i mean capable to decending most if not all the way to the planets core and still capable of transmitting telemetry back.

Give me and the rest of the crew one reason to give a damn.

So what if NotMoon used L-III that way?
That only opens up a lot of questions , like why they'd do that , but other than that it changes nothing.

Why would you be scared of that?
It makes perfect sense that they'd point a radio telescope at us.
Also , don't forget that Seeker is still orbiting over FakeBrain - why don't you worry about that?

Apples and oranges.
Figuring out how the cryptographic principles of some dedicated mechanical encryption device work is very different from figuring out technology you don't understand because of advanced design and underlying scientific principles you do not fully grasp.
Also , citing the Enigma as an example becomes a complete non sequitur when you realize that its' hardware was only the physical implementation for its' algorithm - which was what the Allies actually had to figure out.
And don't forget that Enigma was not just cracked by remote analysis , there were captured code tables and hardware , operator mistakes and shoddy security procedures.
Remember how the Axis remained completely confident in their encyption up till the end of the war.

Thinking deeply about how hard cracking Enigma was despite all those points in favor of the Allies should only confirm how unlikely remote reverse engineering really is.

You do not really expect him to answer that , do you?

We just didn't survey the thing properly , that's all.

Like what?

As for the foil dish? Part of me looks at it and can almost see converging lasers being focused into an area that our industry goes through in its orbital path. So I can understand the worry.. But I'm sure its only going to be one beam as i don't think you can merge lasers like that.. But still anything they build with a FOCAL point in our territory is potential BAD NEWS.

You can't use tin foil as a mirror for a giant laser.

EDIT:
@foamy
Say , that parabolic depression , covered by a thin sheet of aluminium , is that thing located on the 'dark' side of that moon , so it sweeps the sky around L-II with each of the moons' revolution around the Lamprey homeworld?

And the focal point isn't on us. It's out there somewhere *waves hand in irrelevant direction.*
Unless, of course, in the path of their orbits the two planets come to such a distance where the focal point is in fact at L-III, but even then you couldn't aim it well, if at all. Assuming you could bounce a laser off of it effectively in the first place. WHY NOT JUST BUILD A PROPER MIRROR?

Yep , focal point is beyond L-IV.

Things' either meant to send or receive radio signals.
They are probably surveying the sky , looking for further trouble.

EDIT:
BTW people , can we get back on track?
Most important thing to do now is deciding on how we are going to respond to their transmissions and whether or not we make some kind of counter-offer in response to M3.
That should be sufficient for a mini-update at least.
Just sayin' ...

Agreed on all points.
Respond with a polite "No."

If you have no interest in figuring out why there's a giant artifact sitting inside that moon you're probably in the wrong thread. What did I do to prompt such animosity?

Edit: Ya know what? I don't really give a damn, you don't speak for "the rest of the crew" and you weren't even entitled to that response.

It's not a telescope or a laser, Foamy said quite clearly that it is not optical quality, it may, however, be radio. Given that they also seem to believe that they understand alien hardware well enough to hack it one must wonder whether they've recovered and reverse-engineered any other examples, and whether they may have found something that's lead them to attempt to communicate with notmoon. Remember, for all they know, we're the same species that built every other extraterrestrial artifact they've discovered. The revelation that the trojan seems designed for a common lamprey system does seem to undermine that a bit, unless that system is a reverse-engineered example of something they recovered. Given the existence of alien artifacts in their system and their break-neck rate of progress the idea that they might be getting some help along those lines is plausible,

No animosity , just me using swearing to express my exasperation.
How that thing got here really ain't a pressing issue and even if it did use a fusion candle that doesn't change anything.
Besides , regarding that you overlooked an important detail:
Billions of years in the past , when NotMoon settled down here , the stars in the galaxy were clustered much closer together than today - remember how foamy showed us that Sol and Lampreytown were once mere light-weeks apart? - so even such an enormous starship like NotMoon would not have needed as much delta-v or speed to hop from system to system as it would today.
No fusion candle needed.

And yes , I don't speak for the crew , never said I did.
Still , my question remains:
Why is that stuff important?
It doesn't tell us anything about this things' capabilites , intentions or origins , so why care?

To get back on track, here is my preliminary proposal for an answer. I tried to include what I think are the predominant opinions of the crew. Critic away or post your alternatives.


North-Home,

we exist only as brain state emulations, possessing no physical bodies. As such, any face to face meeting would just result in radio communications over shorter distances; we see little utility in this undertaking.

However you are welcome to visit us at [Coordinates, time] (Coordinates are in the asteroid belt, so that we can continue our aVN-work, far enough from L-III that it will be immediately obvious if they try to make a run for it but close enough that we can beat them there.) We must, however, inform you that our spaceship has other duties and will not be available to provide a boost back to L-II.


We recognize that this might be a stressful experience for you. To allay any fears, we are willing to respect an exclusion volume ( r = 0.5 Au; too big, too small? Discuss) around L-II, which we will not enter without your express permission.

As an reciprocal gesture we ask that you respect an identical exclusion volume around L-III. Please be advised that this is for your own protection as L-III contains artifacts potentially dangerous for all sapient beings in this system. Be aware that the exclusion volume will be enforced. (Not sure if we should include the last sentence)

If you will allow it, we will be happy to construct an embassy-station in orbit around L-II, as soon as practical.


This message also allows us to take up Wicked's proposal and just send the big lander, as long as Audacity is near enough that the light speed lag won't make any conversation impossible. This is assuming we go with the story, saying Audacity is at least capable of running one mind state or at least some kind of bruned diplomatic fork.

Perhaps I overreacted.

It's not likely to be immediately important, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe that I've spotted all the potential angles so feeding it into the think-tank for brainstorming while we've got idle cycles waiting for Foamy to come back seemed like a good idea.

At the moment it's one of the few coherent explanations we've got for it that's supported by evidence, though slim. It gives a plausible reason why rational beings might have constructed it, it has bearing on a lot of the anomalies in Lampreytown and Sol, and might even have the potential to explain what happened to Sol. Maybe life-supporting rocks are genuinely rare in this universe and one of the few species to evolve decided to build a few systems that could support more, maybe a previous lamprey civ tried some major engineering and screwed up, getting themselves killed, maybe inhibitors are using the technique to efficiently fling rocks from system to system to kill potentially life-bearing planets.

Let's narrow down the most likely scenarios so, if push comes to shove and we are forced to commit to a plan of action, we've got the best framework possible to work from. Flimsy is better than nothing.

Is there any evidence that might mean something new when viewed in this new light? Anything that might now suggest that it's unrelated to whatever happened Sol? Will the results of a deep probe into LIII have a different meaning if we are aware that it may have, at some point in the past, been on the receiving end of a fusion torch capable of moving its mass around? If the most likely scenario is now that it is benign it might justify accelerating our research timetable since we do have evidence of another potential threat an no idea of how long we have to prepare.

The big thing I can think of right now is that the lampreys found other artifacts on LII, which is something we might expect if a previous civilization made a serious attempt at changing the solar system around. One crashed ship might have been the cause of their accelerated development and if they based their computers off of it they might actually have a credible reason to believe that they could contact notmoon. Hell, that Trojan might have actually been directed at notmoon, we’re only assuming that is was for us unless it was a fantastically narrow beam.

No sweat , I guess I did come off as a bit of a dick.
I like to be very direct , but I guess sometimes I go a little too far.
Don't take it personal

Well , I can't object to that , since I said something similiar myself.
We might want to focus our brainstorming a little more , though.

Seems we could use fossile records from L-II , especially those pertaining to Lampreys and their ancestors.
We could frame it as scientific curiosity , though if we tell them about our suspicions about NotMoon we might as well be honest.

And of course everything they have on their genetics and molecular biology , although they might intepret that (rightly so?) as us asking for the means to go WMD on their tails.

Hm , probably a good idea.
A few possiblities I can think of:

a)Inhibitors (obviously) , in which case it could be

1) a Warship/Destroyer (but then why is L-II still there?)
2) a Sentinel (watching for signs of life or civilization ; again , why then is L-II still there?)
3) a Settlement (they got to live somewhere and KT-II civilizations like Sol are pretty noticeable)
4) a cache (data/weapons/tools ; a 'backup-drive' for their civilization?)

b)Benefactors(protected/re-seeded life on L-II)
c)Hiders(possibly because of Inhibitors)

Variants for case a) obviously intersect with b) and c) a bit.
Got more suggestions? We can take them apart later.

I guess we really have no other choice but to use our remaining probes and some of our production to do detailed surveys all major celestial bodies in this system.
I think some here were against that , don't remember why , though.

Also , what are going to make of positive/negative readings on neutrinos from NotMoon once we get our observatory going?
Is a negative reading 'safe'?
Does a positive mean we have to run? Make contact? Bomb the thing to hell and back?

Possible.
The rapid progress of Lampreykind in space might be adequately explained by the goverments' knowledge of NotMoon and the enormous amount of money funneled into space projects.
I think their progress is actually a bit too slow for them to be in possession of major precursor artifacts.

I like it, except for the meeting. Say no to the meeting, say it's pointless, but yes on the dual exclusion zones.

And even if we do end up having a meeting, I would rather it be in open space than anywhere near one of our assets.

Jace,

they build a space ship at considerable expense. I think we can take it as a given that they will try to use it.

They will try to get closer to us, all things being equal I prefer a meeting on our terms (away from NotMoon, our infrastructure) from one on theirs.

Audacity is armed and can likely run away faster than them, we also can use the workshop to construct additional weapons (AntiAir-Railguns etc).

As long as we keep a healthy minimum distance we should be fine.

I concur.
Unfortunately most here seem to think that getting within one million miles of any Lamprey vessel will put the Audacity in mortal danger.

Perhaps we could build a shuttle of sorts with our ambassador on board (it still favor the humanoid cylon model) to meet with their vessel once they are at the rendevous point.
We wanted to build asteroid tugs anyway.

That aside , I mostly agree with your message.
We'll tweak the wording a little and 0.5 Au will probably not be enough (they'll want more space to make sure our weapons can't reach them).
On the other hand , if you're going to tell them to not come within .5 Au of NotMoon , you might as well tell them to stay away from L-III completely.

M3 also isn't in a position to guarantee anything about the other Lamprey nations, so agreeing to an exclusion zone with just them would be foolish as it would be giving the CC's members something for nothing. I still favor the station as a counter-proposal. I don't necessarily object to saying that we're purely electronic, since that will become obvious fairly soon, nor to saying that our ship also has other duties in addition to it being unsafe for them to enter a trajectory they can't return from.

Slybrarian,

the might not have the authority, although I still think they are they are a front for someone.

No matter they don't need any authority because on this we are not negotiating. The exclusion volume is the one thing were we should be telling, not asking. It is after all, as far as we know, the only existencial risk for us in this system.

So telling in a polite and friendly way but still telling. Please stay away, we will enforce it. Full-stop.

Throw the other exclusion volume in as a sweetener, to make them feel safer, it costs us nothing.