Feel free to submit questions so it can become more thorough.
Discussion in 'Non Sci-fi Debates' started by Les, Oct 16, 2012.
Second part coming on tonight in about two hours, encore-encore on right now.
Interesting... J.P. Morgan wins for losing, sets the standard for lots of puppy-kicking, but bails-out the federal government (oh the Irony). In the next and final installment, the Anti-Trust movement targets these titans and what I personally have been waiting for.. the rise of Henry Ford and affordable automobiles.
Ok, watched the first three episodes now. Pretty well put together but apparently there are some historical inaccuracies.
For all of his flaws, and they are significant, I cannot help but like Carnegie.
He definitely seems the most likable of the four so far. Rockefeller seems to be drawn in the most negative light.
Plus I love all of the name drops and other references like Edison and Tesla and Westinghouse. Or earlier with Frick, Scott and Eads.
Curiously the documentary references workers and strikes and unsafe working conditions and the many flaws of these men. I can only assume I'm watching a different documentary then those who whined about Hero Worship of Randian Superman earlier.
I really enjoyed watching the fourth episode of this series, even for all the flaws involved of the five big 'names' that are being focused on.
And the ones who whined did so, well before the series had even started.
The people who built America or any other nation are the ones that held the hammers, shovels and picks.
This series is about the parasites that skimmed wealth from their brows while grinding their faces in the dust.
Oh boy, here we go again.
Oh shut up and take your goddamn OWS picketing signs with you.
No they really weren't. People don't just randomly start building bridges, steel mills, oil refiners, etc. They do so because someone is encouraging them to do so. Without that individual the result would not be achieved.
No, it's a series about the people who built the most powerful industrial machine the world has ever seen.
And why does that someone want those built? Because, oh right, the demands of the system which controls him make it so he should do that.
No, it's a series about some of the most famous products of a powerful system. And therein lies the rub. The so-called "Great Men" are the people who most exemplify the desired traits. They exemplify the system because that is how the system works. This whole bullshit of trying to separate the man, the employees, and the system is hilarious.
Do you talk about the "Great Hubcaps in my automobile"? The USSR's greatest accomplishment was realizing cybernetic theory was true and powerful. Its greatest failure was utterly failing to exploit that.
I talk about great engine in my automobile. And I am not unique in that regard.
What would happen if these Great Men were Mexicans instead?
The show would be called The Men Who Built Mexico?
Really sad thing about Carnegie seems to be that.. he didn't Need to give Frick all that power, even knowing what Frick would do with it, but.. he got into a pissing-contest with Rockefeller he felt he couldn't back down from because he blamed Rockefeller for his mentor's death... well, damn.
What's your big point exactly?
You can say that about almost anyone in history, not just builders or entrepeneurs. Are there no notable people in history solely because their lives are the product of the 'system?'
Which would be also be moderately entertaining to watch.
Any time something significant happens a mariachi band would teleport in to facilitate the celebration.
They do so because there is a need or a want to do so. Then some asshole in a comfortable chair who never broke a sweat takes the credit and as much of the payoff as he can get away with stealing. If somebody disagrees the machinery of the state is bribed to comitt violence against them to compell obedience.
It's a series about the most succesful sociopathic parasites the world has ever seen.
Seriously why the fuck does these assholes even need their gigantic multiple mansions? How many fucking beds can you sleep in at the same time? Why do you need a room the size of a house just to eat dinner in, and another room the size of a house to play cards in, and a hundred other fucking rooms while the people who did the actual work are crammed a dozen in three room apartments?
The answer is because you're a fucking asshole. And anyone who thinks that is right or fair or just is a fucking asshole.
Unlike 99% of the posters here I've seen and lived both ends of the telescope. I was on a first name basis eating breakfast with Preston Manning and Stephen Harper at one point. I've also spent summers shucking corn and doing odd farm jobs. I've laid out shop floors in air conditioned board rooms going out for all expense paid steaks and hookers afterwards, and I've mopped those same floors in 40 degree heat in coveralls and boots eating cold pizza out of tupperware.
I can earn a better living running my mouth than I can running a lathe, but only one of them allows me to sleep at night and look myself in the mirror in the morning.
^ has issues
No, they really don't. Human beings are incredibly bad at self organizing and self directing to achieve large goals. There is a reason that every successful movement (whether social, political, economic, or military) inevitably ends up with individuals leading it, regardless of it's origins.
Without Carnegie there is no bridge over the Mississippi, there is no steel supported buildings. Without Edison and Morgan there is no electric light-bulb in every home. Without Rockefeller there is no such thing as a pipeline. Without Ford there is no such thing as the mass produced car.
Doing physical labor is not particularly difficult. I've done it, it doesn't require anything particularly special. Coming up with ideas, having the vision to see and create new markets, having the charisma and talent to motivate people to achieve your vision; those are all rare talents.
Because you wanted it and had the power to make it a reality. Just like anything else in life, from cable TV to internet access.
Newsflash: Life is not fair.
Good for you, I've worked doing minimum wage physical labor, I've also done venture capital and dozens of other things. Carnegie was a factory worker, Vanderbilt was a ferry boat employee, Rockefeller was helping to support his family at 10.
Weak. Here's me not caring.
There are not enough facepalms in the world.
I will concede that the top-flight executive corps in business are given too much credit, especially in the modern age where companies are so large and by nature need more delegation of authority, and recent events convincing me that most in those upper tiers owe their positions more to their social connections than any special skill or talent applicable to those positions...
Aieeegrunt however seems to be well into the opposite extreme.
Sigh not sure if I should tell you to get help or get an education either way i recommend getting it
I'm sure the housing construction and contractor industry is more then happy to oblige the taste of rich people owning multiple mansions. And servers and chefs and butchers are more then happy to provide overpriced steaks and wines to rich diners. And so forth.
And the documentary hasn't really sugar coated the entrepreneurs. This last episode especially when it explained how "Morganization" actually works.
I'd prefer you not demand people be lobotomized in this thread so go with the second option.
The final episode is tonight, replay of previous episodes going on now.
I wonder, when they bring on Ford if they'll cover how much Henry fucked-over his own son Edsel?