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Was USS Oklahoma sunk by a mini-sub?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Desert Fox, Dec 7, 2009.

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  1. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Vulpes zerda

    I thought we needed a Pearl Harbor thread on December 7

    [link]

     
  2. DonBosco

    DonBosco 11th century refugee

    And the other torpedoes weren't underwater blasts?:wtf: Not to mention that it's not any mystery why it capsized, it was hit by three airplane torpedoes along the port side, with two more airplane torpedoes impacting after it had already rolled 40 degrees to port. It flooded too quickly to counterflood, which is what saved at least one other battleship from capsizing.
     
  3. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Vulpes zerda

    When does a magazine / newspaper get everything quiteright?
     
  4. Reaperman

    Reaperman Evil Admin Staff

    even if the Minisub fired off both its Torpedos (i think they only carried 2?) its kinda academic
    [​IMG]
    ya can see from this diagrm that as she was listing she was struck again, and then after she had hit the bottom another torpedo penetrated the deck, by that time she was far to far gone to counter flood

    you can get an idea of the sense of the damage
    http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013729.jpg

    would be interesting to know if the submarine did manage to first off one of her torpedos (isnt there a photo supposdly showing the torpedo and periscope from the mini sub?) but the mini-sub alone did not sink the Oklaholma,
     
  5. FleetAdmiral

    FleetAdmiral Serving the Imperial Navy

    Wait a minute, the Japanese aircraft carried Type 91 Mod 2, 935 kg Torpedoes which is over the "800 lb" torpedoes mentioned in the article. While the Midgets carried Type 97 Torps that were 980 kg...
    http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTJAP_WWII.htm

    Poor reporting once again!


    Nevertheless, it would be interesting, if indeed it was the missing 5th midget sub.
     
  6. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Vulpes zerda

    Could they mean the warhead was 800 lbs? That seems to match the listing....
     
  7. Senmut

    Senmut America Aeterna!

    http://www.starbulletin.com/news/20091207_sea_yields_clues_to_41_attack.html

    Sea yields clues to '41 attack
    A PBS series reports that an underwater torpedo hit one ship

    By Helen Altonn


    POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Dec 07, 2009

    (Single Page View) | Return to Paginated View

    New evidence indicating the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor effectively from under water, as well as the air, was announced today by the "NOVA" television series on the anniversary of the 1941 attack that led the United States into World War II.

    "Pearl Harbor was always seen as an aerial attack," said Parks Stephenson, lead investigator of an underwater expedition for the PBS science series, which explored the wreckage of a midget submarine discovered by University of Hawaii researchers.

    Eyewitness accounts, a congressional report by Adm. Chester Nimitz, former Pacific Fleet commander, and other clues indicate the midget sub fired two torpedoes and claimed success in a radio call to the Japanese high command 12 hours after the attack, he said.

    Stephenson said the accounts indicate one torpedo was fired at the USS Arizona that was a dud, but he believes another torpedo hit the USS Oklahoma.

    The marine forensic historian and former U.S. Navy officer and submariner discussed the findings of the expedition in a telephone interview from his San Diego home. "NOVA" will present the new evidence and underwater footage of the Japanese midget submarine in a TV documentary, "Killer Subs in Pearl Harbor," premiering on KHET-PBS Jan. 5.

    "A giant piece of the Pearl Harbor puzzle has fallen into place," Stephenson said. "This important discovery sheds light on a World War II mystery that has eluded historians for nearly seven decades."

    Five Japanese "mother" submarines approached within a few miles of Pearl Harbor before the Dec. 7 battle, each carrying a Type-A, two-man, midget submarine, about 80 feet long and 6 feet wide, NOVA said.

    The sophisticated midget subs were twice as fast as many U.S. subs of the times, with 600-horsepower electric motors that could propel them underwater at speeds of 19 knots (22 mph). They were capable of carrying two Type 97 Long Lance Torpedoes.

    All but one of the five midget submarines were found over the years, "either destroyed, scuttled or run aground," NOVA said. "They missed the targets, failed to fire or were recovered with torpedoes intact. But historians have long puzzled over the fate of the missing sub."

    Stephenson, a Lockheed Martin engineer, said the submersibles Pisces IV and Pisces V, belonging to the Hawaii Undersea Research Laboratory, found three sections of the missing sub in cruises over the past few years in the same area south of Pearl Harbor.

    He accompanied Terry Kerby, HURL operations director and chief pilot, on a "validation" cruise in March. Kerby had been the first to spot the midget sub amid damaged equipment and landing craft from the 1944 West Loch explosion.

    Also along as observers on the UH submersibles in March were a Japanese expert on midget subs and retired Adm. Kazuo Uyeda, the senior surviving midget submariner from WWII.

    "One can conclude definitely that this was the special submarine that was used in Pearl Harbor," Uyeda said.

    Stephenson said microbiologist Lori Johnston, who did extensive work on the Titanic, sunk in 1912, determined the torpedoes were fired before the sub sank because of rustlike encrustation covering the empty torpedo tubes.

    A survivor of the Oklahoma described one torpedo as much more violent than others hitting the ship, he said.

    "So the Oklahoma, in my eyes, is the leading candidate" for the midget submarine's torpedo. "I have a theory that if the Oklahoma had not been hit by a more powerful torpedo, it might have righted itself like the West Virginia."

    As more evidence, a photo taken by a Japanese airplane during the attack seems to show the conning tower of the midget sub at the surface pointed at the Oklahoma, Stephenson said.

    Nimitz described an unexploded torpedo sighted and recovered inside the harbor with an explosive charge of 1,000 pounds -- more than twice that of aerial torpedoes -- which provides "corroborating evidence that a midget sub did penetrate Battleship Row and fired upon it," said "NOVA."

    U.S. veterans told "NOVA" investigators the Arizona was torpedoed from below, but "NOVA" divers who had special permission to film the hull 40 feet beneath the surface found no visible signs of a torpedo hit.

    It is believed the midget sub escaped to a secluded area of West Loch, remained undetected to get off a radio call, then was scuttled by the crew to keep it out of enemy hands, Stephenson said. The fate of the crew is uncertain.

    Why it was found in three sections on the ocean bottom several miles outside of Pearl Harbor was a puzzle until "top secret" information was revealed recently about an ammunition explosion that killed nearly 200 sailors and wounded hundreds more in West Loch on May 21, 1944, "NOVA" said.

    "The U.S. Navy quickly and quietly cleaned up the remnants of the 1944 West Loch disaster to get the top-secret (Normandy) invasion back on track."

    Stephenson said he believes the Navy found the midget sub and took it with the rest of the debris a few miles outside of the harbor and dumped it all together.

    Burl Burlingame, a Star-Bulletin writer, author of "Advance Force Pearl Harbor" and a historian for the "NOVA" project, said, "The more we learn, the more mysterious it gets."



    New evidence indicating the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor effectively from under water, as well as the air, was announced today by the "NOVA" television series on the anniversary of the 1941 attack that led the United States into World War II.

    COURTESY PARKS STEPHENSON
    The wreckage of the last of five Japanese midget subs sent to attack Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, was identified recently with the help of Hawaii scientists. Shown is the midsection and conning tower of the 80-foot-long, two-man vessel, believed scuttled in the aftermath of the attack.
    View more photos >>"Pearl Harbor was always seen as an aerial attack," said Parks Stephenson, lead investigator of an underwater expedition for the PBS science series, which explored the wreckage of a midget submarine discovered by University of Hawaii researchers.

    Eyewitness accounts, a congressional report by Adm. Chester Nimitz, former Pacific Fleet commander, and other clues indicate the midget sub fired two torpedoes and claimed success in a radio call to the Japanese high command 12 hours after the attack, he said.

    Stephenson said the accounts indicate one torpedo was fired at the USS Arizona that was a dud, but he believes another torpedo hit the USS Oklahoma.

    The marine forensic historian and former U.S. Navy officer and submariner discussed the findings of the expedition in a telephone interview from his San Diego home. "NOVA" will present the new evidence and underwater footage of the Japanese midget submarine in a TV documentary, "Killer Subs in Pearl Harbor," premiering on KHET-PBS Jan. 5.

    "A giant piece of the Pearl Harbor puzzle has fallen into place," Stephenson said. "This important discovery sheds light on a World War II mystery that has eluded historians for nearly seven decades."

    Five Japanese "mother" submarines approached within a few miles of Pearl Harbor before the Dec. 7 battle, each carrying a Type-A, two-man, midget submarine, about 80 feet long and 6 feet wide, NOVA said.

    The sophisticated midget subs were twice as fast as many U.S. subs of the times, with 600-horsepower electric motors that could propel them underwater at speeds of 19 knots (22 mph). They were capable of carrying two Type 97 Long Lance Torpedoes.

    All but one of the five midget submarines were found over the years, "either destroyed, scuttled or run aground," NOVA said. "They missed the targets, failed to fire or were recovered with torpedoes intact. But historians have long puzzled over the fate of the missing sub."

    Stephenson, a Lockheed Martin engineer, said the submersibles Pisces IV and Pisces V, belonging to the Hawaii Undersea Research Laboratory, found three sections of the missing sub in cruises over the past few years in the same area south of Pearl Harbor.

    He accompanied Terry Kerby, HURL operations director and chief pilot, on a "validation" cruise in March. Kerby had been the first to spot the midget sub amid damaged equipment and landing craft from the 1944 West Loch explosion.

    Also along as observers on the UH submersibles in March were a Japanese expert on midget subs and retired Adm. Kazuo Uyeda, the senior surviving midget submariner from WWII.

    "One can conclude definitely that this was the special submarine that was used in Pearl Harbor," Uyeda said.

    Stephenson said microbiologist Lori Johnston, who did extensive work on the Titanic, sunk in 1912, determined the torpedoes were fired before the sub sank because of rustlike encrustation covering the empty torpedo tubes.

    A survivor of the Oklahoma described one torpedo as much more violent than others hitting the ship, he said.

    "So the Oklahoma, in my eyes, is the leading candidate" for the midget submarine's torpedo. "I have a theory that if the Oklahoma had not been hit by a more powerful torpedo, it might have righted itself like the West Virginia."

    As more evidence, a photo taken by a Japanese airplane during the attack seems to show the conning tower of the midget sub at the surface pointed at the Oklahoma, Stephenson said.

    Nimitz described an unexploded torpedo sighted and recovered inside the harbor with an explosive charge of 1,000 pounds -- more than twice that of aerial torpedoes -- which provides "corroborating evidence that a midget sub did penetrate Battleship Row and fired upon it," said "NOVA."

    U.S. veterans told "NOVA" investigators the Arizona was torpedoed from below, but "NOVA" divers who had special permission to film the hull 40 feet beneath the surface found no visible signs of a torpedo hit.

    It is believed the midget sub escaped to a secluded area of West Loch, remained undetected to get off a radio call, then was scuttled by the crew to keep it out of enemy hands, Stephenson said. The fate of the crew is uncertain.

    Why it was found in three sections on the ocean bottom several miles outside of Pearl Harbor was a puzzle until "top secret" information was revealed recently about an ammunition explosion that killed nearly 200 sailors and wounded hundreds more in West Loch on May 21, 1944, "NOVA" said.

    "The U.S. Navy quickly and quietly cleaned up the remnants of the 1944 West Loch disaster to get the top-secret (Normandy) invasion back on track."

    Stephenson said he believes the Navy found the midget sub and took it with the rest of the debris a few miles outside of the harbor and dumped it all together.

    Burl Burlingame, a Star-Bulletin writer, author of "Advance Force Pearl Harbor" and a historian for the "NOVA" project, said, "The more we learn, the more mysterious it gets."
     
  8. But... there isn't a missing fifth submarine.

    1. Mini-sub engaged by USS Ward. (Found in 2002, both torpedoes still on board.)
    2. Mini-sub sunk by USS Monagahan. Salvaged soon after the attack.
    3. Ensign Kazuo Sakamaki's mini-sub. Abandoned and washed ashore.
    4. The Keehi Lagoon mini-sub.
    5. The mini-sub that attacked USS St. Louis as it left harbor. (Fired both torpedoes at the cruiser.)
     
  9. TheMarine

    TheMarine WW2 Buff

    There is a show that aired on the military channel that said that "No there was no torping by mini subs" and they tested the difference between a air launched and a sub-surface launched torp. Mini subs of the time had a distinct splash that followed a launch due to the weight leaving the sub.


    "A survivor of the Oklahoma described one torpedo as much more violent than others hitting the ship, he said."

    Confusion in times of war. Seriously getting hit by multiple torps isn't exactly conductive of knowing where they came from.



    "Stephenson said microbiologist Lori Johnston, who did extensive work on the Titanic, sunk in 1912, determined the torpedoes were fired before the sub sank because of rustlike encrustation covering the empty torpedo tubes."
    Ok mabey a new science but no... I don't think I'll take a microbiologst at his word on if a torpedo was fired 60 years ago or not. Looking at the titanic doesn't exactly make him the best source for this as you know... it was sunk without the giant exsplosion. :rolleyes:

    Could it of happened? Mabey. Did it? Highly doubtfuly as those things were nothing but steel coffins. The one that did get close got shot the frack up and nothing points to the mini's even getting past the patrols. :/
     
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