What if: CIS won Clone Wars?

Discussion in 'Space Battles' started by Herald, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. Herald A hero? I should have been a god!

    Let's set despite Palpatine's manipulation's and the Clone Army, the CIS instead win. How different would the Starwars galaxy would have been with the Separatists in charge? Say either Palpatine decides to take charge of them or Dooku kill's his master and lead's them.
  2. What was the objective of the CIS in defeating the Republic? What did they want to do if they won?
  3. Ladiesman Spacebattles Resident Racist

    Um....the same exact thing? Palpatine was leading both sides. Maybe aliens play a more promiment role earlier on until Palpy restructures everything, and maybe he gets to blow up the Senate earlier.

    But otherwise, it's the same thing with slightly different gear used.
  4. TK99 Me Use Spell Check Now

    Supposedly victory for the CIS was actually the death of the Jedi according to Tyrannous.

    So after the Order is pretty much dead he would sue for peace with then Empire Palpatine and new Sith Empire is born.
  5. Bryan <font color=yellow>The Great Goof!</font>

    Palpatine would have manipulated it so he would still have his empire or something similar.

    Actually, the CIS winning could give him complete dictatorial powers immediately without dissolving the Senate during ANH. A CIS winning could then lead to him strengthening the Empire and reconquering the galaxy. The Rebels would not have any real power because they'd be seen as traitors supporting the CIS and not trying to restore the Republic.

    The CIS, assuming it were an actual confederacy, would probably be very weak once the war ended. Kind of how the US was after the Revolution. The army went to crap and the Navy barely even existed (not that it was that great anyway). Confederacies don't really keep a large military.
  6. Q99

    I think that if that happens then the path will include Dooku offing Sidious, since Palps doesn't have a position of power in the CIS so he'd have to, at best, use Dooku as a figurehead for awhile, not exactly an optimal solution. A Dooku-lead Empire might be pretty interesting.
  7. Skyzeta Friendly Oppressor

    In order for this to work, the CIS needs to do six things that Sidious would never allow them to do.

    The first is that it needs to abandon any thoughts of any degree of offensive operations. It needs to play a strictly defensive game and force the Republic to appear the aggressor and most of all, force them to attack carefully secured areas.

    The second is it needs to mount large scale mobilization of organic assets. They had them, the bottom line is they were often purposefully misused by Sidious. The Mandalorians alone had they been truly mobilized behind the CIS could have been a nightmare.

    The third is that it needs to start revamping the droid army almost immediately. Grevious himself referred to the common B1 battle droid as a greater threat to the CIS then the Jedi ever could be. They have the ability, just again it's something Sidious strangled in it's crib on numerous occassions.

    The fourth is you need much more non-corporate involvment in the CIS leadership. You need to make the CIS a real government and not what essentially amounts to a corporate rebellion, one staged by primarily aliens no less. A real government that functions legitimatly will be able to endure long after the Corporations collapse.

    The fifth is to start making real overtures to the Jedi and the anti-war elements of the Republic about a negotiated peace settlement that will grant you your independence.

    The sixth is to settle in for a long fight, your not going to win against the Republic in dashing moves. Your going to win by bleeding their resolve over years, possibly even decades of fighting. This kind of fighting is the kind of thing the Republic always excelled at, so your going to have to wait awhile before the average Republican citizen get's impatient on the issue, especially the all important coreborn.

    If the CIS had followed the above, then it's very possible that they would have had a chance to at least gain their independence and keep it, at least in the short term which was the stated goal of the war. Essentially what they need to do is to ruin Palpatine and by extension the war hawks credibility and make the CIS government actually functional, rather then just a bunch of corporate heads who want lower taxes.

    Having said this, is this long term victory? Not in the slightest. They may defeat Palpatine and avoid the rize of the Empire, but there are precedents for this in the Republic history where it took decades, even centuries to reconquer certain portions of space but more to the point, without the rise of the Empire, you've kicked a sleeping lion. It's quite possible such an event might actually cause a return to the Pre-Ruusan Republic, particularly in that the CIS secession and the chaos that followed will be forever seen as the failure of pacifism and the fact it got as far it did a monument to the degree to which the Ruusan reformation had nuetered the jedi.

    The irony is that had the Republic *lost* the war against a more legitimate CIS, it might have saved the Republic and allowed it to endure further. The question of whether the CIS will remain independent is questionable. They may be reconquered sometime in the next few centuries, they may collapse and invite the Republic back in or they may actually willingly rejoin after 50-70 years when it's clear that the Republic has clearly reoorganized.
  8. The Sun Emperor An Allusive Man

    Two more things:

    1. An actual ideology to spread and unify the movement,

    2. Less war crimes.
  9. Memphet'ran Looking into the light

    They were seperatists, they wanted to leave the Republic and form an independent state.
  10. Skyzeta Friendly Oppressor

    They actually did have an ideology, that was never their problem and they had no shortage of worlds they could tap to feed the fires of the Anti-Republcianism. The problem was that they left it as simply counter-Republican in nature and never really encouraged any real discussion of what they wanted to build. For obvious reasons of course from Sidious's perspective, he was doing all this to eliminate opposition to his rule, the last thing he needs is the CIS to develop into a real and functional goverment. In general, the Sith going all the way back to Bane himself had always strived to weaken independence movements on the idea that the Republic would provide them with the necessary incubator for their Sith Empire but more to the point, that it kept their enemies nuetralized.A Jedi order unrestrained or real seperatist movements that made real progress were recurring nightmares for the Sith, in both cases something that they went to great lengths to quash.

    As far as the issue of war crimes again, it kind of follows out of the above naturally. An actual government is going to be less likely to go through with some of the plan then a collection of corporate leaders who frankly, didn't really want a long and expensive war in the first place and will fund or sign anything that holds out a promise of ending this war quickly and decisively. Furthermore, it should be noted that most of the war crimes that the CIS committed were on the offensive operations and in many cases, done solely on the principle of it was the only way that they would be able to even the odds. The CIS was in a very bad position when it came to mounting an offensive and they knew it, so they needed ever last advantage that they could get. A desperate man doesn't look to carefully at his options, he just takes whatever he thinks will get him out of it. More to the point, a legitimate goverment will also shy away from things that Sidious often had the CIS council do specifically to establish the idea that the CIS was in fact a threat and that it was indeed, morally reprehensible.

    In essence in both cases, a lot of what your saying would be a natural outgrowth of the points I've already listed.
  11. Ralson Horrible Cat

    I'd start with not listening to that hologram. He tends to give only bad advice. I don't even know why we bought that cryptic-hooded-figure-hologram projector. :(
  12. Reaper_93 SB's Fav. Dungeon Master

    Well, uh...

    The Emperor would rule the galaxy anyway? There'd be legions of robots instead of legions of robot-look-alike people?

    It'd be the same deal, more or less :p

    Though, Skyzeta, I'd say the way to win the war would have been the quick push to the core, rather than a long scale war. The Republic was rather bigger than the CIS, and its industrial base a lot more powerful - it had the advantage in a long war, as that's how the Republic's ALWAYS fought...
  13. gyrobot Poyo.

    And not to mention a corporate cyberpunk like universe there Reaper. A bunch of Muuns ruling the empire will not be a pretty sight as Geonosian warriors watches you.
  14. Reaper_93 SB's Fav. Dungeon Master

    Yeah, droids would acquire a very different reputation, I'd imagine. Something like a mixed dread/horror and liberator vibe.
  15. Skyzeta Friendly Oppressor

    Even if we assume that they had a war plan that could do the job by the time the war started, in and of itself a great leap, they wouldn't be able to implement it in time. It took several months for the Republic to organize and it had an army ready made, the CIS arguably never did in canon.

    In essence, there is nothing to suggest that the CIS would be able to raise, train and mobilize a force large enough, especially if they're determined to upgrade existing technology. And even if we assume for a moment that they are in fact able to make a push for the core, the question is can it actually reach Coruscant? The Republic may not have truly long range warship, but many worlds still have potent planetary defense forces and system defense forces.

    The other issue though is then that makes it all or nothing. A quick strike at the core, even if it were possible is still an all or nothing gamble against long odds. The best bet for the CIS is to focus on outlasting Palpatine's government and doing everything they can to convert new allies and most of all, preserve the image of being a victim of Republican aggression.
  16. aieeegrunt The 13th Cylon model

    If you think Return of the Jedi was silly now, imagine Ewoks verses B-1 droids.
  17. Bryan <font color=yellow>The Great Goof!</font>

    One thing I never understood was why the Republic didn't seize the assets of the Trade Federation and the Muun bankers.

    It's not like realistically speaking, the Federation or Muuns would have all their money in their own banks. Or at least have all their financial resources in one spot.

    Or how the Muuns and Federation didn't just self-destruct when the Republic would have (or should have) put economic sanctions on those groups and destroyed them economically by denying them access to the rich and lucrative Core worlds.

    This is a problem a lot of sci-fi writers never address. When you have a civil war, led by corporate rebellion like in SW the corporation problems with such a rebellion are never addressed. This isn't like the US Civil War where Southern industry was mainly local and you didn't have grand corporations based in say Charleston with massive interests in New York City.

    The Muuns were bankers and would have been destroyed by the war. The Trade Federation especially as well when their goods are no longer accepted in Republic space. Or the Techno Union.
  18. Yamarus European

    Well you have to consider the fact that before the Clone War broke out at Geonosis, the CIS wasn't considered as a separate entity of the Republic. Just a group of Republic members that manifested their discontent by not attending the Senate. "I will not let this Republic split in two", Palpatine's sentence at the start of AOTC, implies the Republic still considers the Separatists as a part of the Republic.

    Presumably too, the Trade Federation and other corporations which sided with the CIS were really too important and vast for the Republic to just outlaw them.

    When the war broke out, it seems pretty obvious that the Republic would take action against CIS assets, but by that time one would think they would've taken measures. Don't forget the CIS counted not only corporations but also large and influential planets such as Sluis Van.
  19. ShadowSonic Lord of the Vindaloovians

    Wasn't it mentioned in Phantom Menace that the Republic COULD just shut down the Trade Federation?

    I'm guessing that the worlds that threatened to leave or side with the Separatists just had the industrial and economic power to keep the Confederacy afloat.
  20. Q99

    What the CIS really needed is more worlds to join it. They got a lot of recruited worlds during the war, but I'm guessing they figured they'd get more, enough to stand up to the republic.
  21. sdjsdj Inexpert system

    If the Trade Federation owned whole systems, they could well have had effectively local industry. Apart from a few oddities (like Bespin gas, and earlier Kolto) there's no reason individual systems have to trade with one another on a large scale; and if they planned for conflict with the Republic well in advance, it wouldn't be that hard to diversify industry and avoid leaving the bulk of their wealth where the Republic could access it.

    The CIS could only win if Palpatine had a well-deserved, messy accident. If they did win - here comes the new corrupt, inefficient boss, same as the old corrupt, inefficient boss. Perhaps non-humans would get a better deal; perhaps the corporations would wind up with a bit more power; that's about it.
  22. Q99

    Also, consider all the CIS systems that are cut off from some of their old trade routes, but now are open for exclusive contracts with the TF.
  23. Skyzeta Friendly Oppressor

    The InterGalactic Banking Clan played both sides of the war, as was frankly their way. They did it before the Clone Wars, they did it during the Clone Wars, they did it during the galactic civil war and they ended up being the main backer of both the NR and the Imperial currency, just as they had backed both the CIS and Republican currency during the Clone Wars. It should also be noted that when the Republic finally did acknowledge the request to invade Muunilist to remove the growing seperatist influence, they damn near crashed the galactic economy in the process, hence why after the war Muunilist was largely left alone and whilst marginalized, continued to play a key part even in the xenophobic empire.

    The Trade Federation's power was always in it's shipping, not it's production. They controlled a great deal of the trasnport capability of the Republic and had an iron grip on most trade routes. From the Trade Federation's perspective, the war would ahve been good for buisness. The only way to take the Trade Federation out is to destroy their ship yards, droid production facilities and their fleet. As long as those three are still in place, the TF will continue to turn a profit, even in the midst a galaxy wide war.

    The Techno Union whilst it officially supported the Confederacy, actually split down the middle with many of it's member corporations supporting the Republic, some supporting the CIS and some simply selling to anyone who had the money to buy the goods.

    With the Trade Federation's massive fleet, secured systems outside the jurisdiction of the Republic and massive fleetyards, the Techno Union heavy industry to manufacture everything from droids to warships and the IGBC backing their currency, at least economically, the CIS was fully self-sufficent and could have indeed, fought on.

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