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What if... The Goa'uld were competent?!

Discussion in 'Vs. Debates' started by CIDE, May 14, 2012.

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  1. CIDE

    CIDE The voice says I'm almost out of minutes!

    Title says it all, really.

    Looking at their technology, territories, etc. Rather than be literally insane (thanks to the sarcophagus) megalomaniacs and all the other nice adjectives used to describe the Goa'uld we'll assume there's an alternate universe out there where they used their awesome intellect and genetic memory to their fullest.

    Let's try to avoid hypothetical tech that they MIGHT have (unless there's something to back it up). Instead, just with the technology they have. What could their empire look like, their ground forces, etc?
     
    kinkade0001 likes this.
  2. The Imperator

    The Imperator Ultimate Lifeform

    This shouldn't be in the Vs. Debates section, unless I am truly crazy...
     
  3. No more staffs for guns.
     
  4. Draveziovas

    Draveziovas Onward, my valiant steed!

    With full competence? A PsudoBenevolent Dictatorship.
     
  5. Fell

    Fell Can't even handle it

    Mm, a competency upgrade. Frankly I'd have preferred a more unusual "What if" scenario, like say, "What if the Goa'uld were predators rather than parasites?"
     
  6. Murazor

    Murazor Chief Encyclopedist

    Well, if the Goa'uld are not total megalomaniacs (at least to each other), we would see genuinely Goa'uld societies (meaning societies in which everyone or nearly everyone IS a Goa'uld, rather than Goa'uld lords ruling over vast numbers of enslaved humans and feuding with each other).

    This essentially redefines the Stargate setting in its entirety and raises some interesting questions. For one, we can wonder how the relationship between Goa'uld and humans/Unas is redefined, as well as the Goa'uld/Asgard relationship. Would the Goa'uld keep some human worlds untouched to act as a source of host bodies for themselves, raise humans as cattle, clone humans to satisfy demand?

    It is an... interesting question, honest.
     
  7. Vlad III

    Vlad III Indeed, Mr. Watson.

    SG teams would be snaked a lot more then they are.
     
  8. Weyoun the Dancing Borg

    Weyoun the Dancing Borg Now 11% zombified

    Full competence?

    They'd have not left earth to begin with - right now we'd still be in the early bronze age / stone age and wouldn't be advancing.

    Failing that, the SG team in the movie would have been wiped out and Earth would have been destroyed by the naquadah enhanced bomb Ra sent through.

    Failing that, the entire team is captured and killed on coming through Chu'lak in CotG because they'd have something similar to an Iris.
     
  9. DesertViking

    DesertViking not a sea in sight

    Full competence...
    much more densely populated worlds, along with machinery fitting of a civilization that can travel between planets.
    In fact, given the number of universes that seem to be populated with humans, the gould might be a multigalaxy civilization capable of quickly transforming planets from low tech colonies to high powered civilizations in a matter of decades.

    Humans would still be able to outproduce their masters, so the model of humans serve the gould stays. The Gould have shown considerable abilities in human genetic engineering, so this will be a transhuman multigalactic civilization. They would have created the psionic humans, as well as humans that live for quite a long time.

    If the gould handled the parasite thing well (and the fact is with the best hosts you want the human thinking proactively) the azgaurd would likely see them as a species worth trading with, and given that the gould will have access to people with the ancient gene, the azguard may even trade technology.

    The gould can even keep a god like status. This is Athena, who gave us sailing... and steam engines ... and electric power.... and nuclear power. .... and steamships .... and owns half the planet. She has lived for 500 years, and remembers 5,000 years ago. You are lucky to meet her. please remember your manners. bow. its polite.
     
  10. The Goa'uld are reasonably competent.

    Take the Jaffa. Their weapons are nearly worthless at a range over a hundred yards or so, their armor might resist a single staff blast, their tactics are at best those of Napoleon. They are, by any standard, horrible soldiers and ground forces.

    Good, that is what the Goa'uld want them to be.

    The staff weapon is cheap to produce, incredibly durable, easy to use and can continue to function for thousands of years without needing any maintenance or recharging. It is also way beyond the Jaffa's or human slaves ability to reproduce, has a highly limited range, doesn't fire that fast, and is very hard to aim. Any rebellion that is attempted with this weapon is going to be very hampered.

    The armor is resistant to any weapons that the human slaves might have (spears, arrows, weak guns) but does nothing to provide resistance to Goa'uld weapons; this makes a credible rebellion harder.

    The tactics and indoctrination have the same end goal.

    Why is all of this done? Because the Jaffa were never meant to be soldiers or an army, they were meant to be slave enforcer's.

    ---
    The Goa'uld don't use armies for their real wars, they use bombs that blow up planets, fleets with 200 megaton plasma cannons, bio weapons that clean an entire world of life in days, and nano weapons.

    ---
    Lot's of the Goa'ulds items and activities that get labeled as incompetent were perfectly rational and competent choices for the goals that the Goa'uld were working towards.

    And the Goa'uld were winning. Earth killed Ra in a lucky fluke and the System Lords spent the next 15 or so years fighting amongst themselves to decide who would become the next supreme system lord. Earth was useful to them in this fight. The Goa'uld got gutted when the Replicators showed up and it continued when the Ori showed up. They didn't loose to their technological inferiors (Earth).
     
  11. Silveraith

    Silveraith Argentum Phasma Phasmatis

    OMG THIS!

    Emperor Tippy has ripped the words from my mind and given them form.
     
  12. ewarrior11

    ewarrior11 Vice Admiral, RHN

    Yeah, I'll echo that.

    Their weapons and doctrine reflect the environment they found themselves in for many millenia. That institutional inertia is one thing that allowed Earth to resist long enough to find a way to win. But absent Earth's intervention, most of what they did makes sense.

    Their ground troops were weapons of terror used to cow populations. They were good at that.

    Their fighters are criticized a lot, but keep in mind these were also terror weapons. They were never intended to participate in major fleet actions. They exist to cow conquered populations and provide close air support to ground forces.

    Their warships were sometimes used as terror weapons, but that wasn't what they were for. The Ha'tak was a well designed, well rounded warship meant to wage serious wars against serious enemies. It did that job very well for a very long time.
     
  13. If the Goa'uld had been competent, the Tauri would have ended like Tollana. ;P
     
  14. If not for blind luck they would have. Apophis failed at the end of Season 1 pretty much solely because of bad luck, Ryac failed to release the bio weapon that he was carrying in his tooth that would have wiped out every living thing on the entire planet pretty much solely because of bad luck, the SGC forestalled an invasion by Sokar solely because he just wanted Apophis's body, Anubis's asteroid failed pretty much because of blind luck, Anubis's gate exploder failed pretty much because of blind luck.

    Need I continue? The SGC survived and prospered not because of their own actions but because they had some of the strongest plot armor and luck in fiction. There is a reason I'm quite firmly convinced that all of SG was orchestrated by the Ancients as a long term Xanatos Gambit to see their enemies destroyed and their children once again ruling the stars; once you accept that then the blink luck and coincidences become a lot more reasonable.
     
  15. If the Goa'uld were truly competent, they'd probably live up to their in-series hype. Competent and Benevolent individuals with a gift for leadership that can live almost forever and have genetic memory? Probably about as close to a God as you get, and if you're not hilariously abusing your vassals, they're not likely to rebel.

    Edit: Tippy's completely right about the Goa'uld as a race, but I'd argue the onscreen examples of them we see in Stargate almost universally do not show that level of competency.
     
  16. Basically this. To be competent in the modern sense basically REQUIRES them to not be Pure EVUL (tm) anymore. Even if they're supposed to be villains following every rule in the Evil Overlord List, following said rules ironically makes them NOT Evil Overlords anymore.

    Even if Earth was abandoned, the end result is that Earth couldn't hope to wage the canon infiltration and subversion campaign. But then again, against the semi-benign dictators that the Goa'uld would be, there'd be no need to. In such a setting, Earth remains small fry, perhaps trading with the Goa'uld (or more likely, their prosperous subjects) for advanced technological scraps.
     
  17. Soulgazer

    Soulgazer Dunno what to put here

    I prefer the "one in a billion" theory. Essentially, what we saw in the movie is one universe out of sooooooooooo many more that got blown up or toasted. For every universe that makes it to a certain point, millions more diverge and fail. We see it when they go universe travelling. Next door got destroyed by Aphophis, the dimensional drive goes past plenty of worlds that are lifeless hunks of rock or a red star rather then Atlantis (the ones with people can be justified by saying the drive may natuarly appear in universes closer on the divergence timeline), etc.

    What the OP wants is a change in goals, not competance.
     
  18. You'd probably have to idiot ball the Asgard for this to really work. A competent, aggressive snakehead group would likely require the Asgard to otherwise smack them around more instead of doing the 'protect planets' stuff. The Asgard took the 'eh containment' route mostly cause of the Replicator stuff, but if they had an earlier inkling that the snakes would be a bigger problem if left alone, they would have gone around erasing bigger chunks of the Goauld.
     
  19. Now I'm wondering if the Asgard hadn't done just that a long time ago and took out most of the smarter Goa'uld while leaving the less threatening idiots running everything. Survival of the fittest and all that with "fit" here being synonymous with "stupid and non-threatening".
     
  20. The Asgard didn't mess with the Goa'uld because it would have devastated the Milky Way. With a single order from the System Lords there could be billions of Goa'uld ready in a day, every single one of them with the total tech base of the Goa'uld and their same personality.

    To defeat truly defeat the Goa'uld requires hitting pretty much every single bit of their infrastructure simultaneously, and that still won't really defeat them.

    Even in the canon verse it wouldn't be surprising if the Goa'uld are back in charge of the galaxy in a few centuries. There are still billions of free symbiotes and hundreds (or more) free Goa'uld. All it takes is one grabbing a Ha'Tak and heading off to deep space or some uninhabited star system in the middle of nowhere and they can restart their entire empire.

    EDIT: That could actually be a really interesting fan fic. The Asgard aren't hit by the replicators until later and decide to move their full might against Ra and the Goa'uld, they manage to destroy virtually all of the Goa'ulds infrastructure and near totally wipe them out (in large part thanks to their initial strike being a bio weapon with a very long incubation period that was highly contagious and spread to virtually every human and Jaffa in the galaxy and was lethal to the Goa'uld). One Goa'uld is missed and it's his job to rebuild the Goa'uld empire. The Asgard's clone problem hits earlier than expected and manages to wipe them out in the intervening years and the Replicators are never unleashed.

    So the story is of the single Goa'uld rebuilding his species, reconquering the Milky Way, and taking his place as Supreme System Lord.
     
    Fallen Gods Rise likes this.
  21. Some more musing on the Asgard, without the meeting with the Humans of SGC and Teal'c the Asgard didn't really seem to take the idea of the "Hey there might be some 'good' Snakes out there". Thor's Hammer didn't scan the minds of the jaffa that came through to see if they were nice dudes or not, just snake=teleport to jail. If they were so inclined, they would have no difficulty coming up with something like the symbiote poison.
     
  22. kinkade0001

    kinkade0001 Collective Individualist.

    It's not possible in this universe to place Goa'uld and competent in the same sentence....assuming you found a universe where it was possible, it would indeed be scary to behold.
     
  23. Silveraith

    Silveraith Argentum Phasma Phasmatis

    For the Goa'uld to grow as a species requires a Goa'uld Queen; any single goa'uld won't cut it.
     
  24. M3 Lee

    M3 Lee Cyborg Commando

    I pretty much agree with the competent goa'uld equals goa'uld getting f'ed up by the asguard line of thinking.
     
  25. Not really. They can clone themselves. And Queens can choose to produce more queens.
     
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