Feel free to submit questions so it can become more thorough.
Discussion in 'Vs. Debates' started by The General, Apr 15, 2005.
But it is such a potentially large range as to make the question moot.
But it does HAVE to exist in a perticular range of frequencies. Ion canons might HAVE to exist in a certain frequency. They just pick a frequency that is neither
True. But such frequencies need not be contiguous.
Keep in mind when discussing frequencies that knowing the frequency of something does not necessarily mean you can do anything about it.
You might be able to tell exactly what frequencies the molecules in a railgun slug are vibrating at, but that doesn't mean there's anything special you can do to stop the slug any easier because you have that knowledge.
Frequency can also refer to different things. The frequency of my computer (800 MHz) refers to something different from the frequency of my monitor (75 Hz) which, in turn, is different from the frequency of the light hitting my eyes (varies depending on the exact color) and of the sound (varies depending on the sound).
But they all refer to the rate of some kind of cycle. And that's all they have in common. The thing that is being measured (clock cycles, refresh cycles, EM cycles, number of vibrations per second, etc) can be different.
So, you need to ask yourself: just what is the the term frequency measuring in the context of the discussion?
Didn't Mr. Poe or somebody say that just because Turbolasers have frequency doesn't mean they're dependent on them or something like that?
Well let's look at it. SW shields/TL's can't cover ALL frequencies, because as was mentioned opposite frequencies cancel one another out. So apparently they cover a broad range of frequencies.
But as far as SW shields go, isn't it theoretically possible to find a frequency you could set your weapons to that the shields wouldn't be as effective in stopping?
Or as far as TL's go, let's say... the Borg... if the TL was in a reasonable power amount (say low gigatons/high megatons).. couldn't they feasibly eventually adapt to the frequencies of the TL bolts (assuming each bolt covers the same frequencies), and adapt to it?
Or is there also a theory that they cover a wide range of frequencies, but alternate continuously to prevent the above 2 things from occuring?
It basicly boils down to how much energy the weapon transfers to the target when fired. If the energy content of the beam (or bolt, depending on what turbolaser theory you subscribe to) is significantly higher then the energy capacity of whatever shields or defense it is trying to penetrate, then that defense WILL fail, regardless of any frequency matching.
As for what turbolasers are, I subscribe to the exotic luxon beam as it covers more funky behavior then any other theory.
Stop it vivftp, your making yourself look stupid.
You make the assumption that the borg can magicly creat uber shields and the power systems to support them JUST by analizing a weapon frequency.
Tell me, does matching frequencies somehow negate the fact that a stream of particles with an energy content in the mid gigaton range is coming towards those shields at lightspeed or close to it? No? I didn't think so.
Frequency matching means dick when the weapon your trying to cancel out outstrips your shield capacity by ORDERS of magnitude.
I take it then that you are blind, and dumb. I gave specific yields in my post (high MT, low GT), and my basis for them being able to take that sort of energy comes from the Enterprises deflector dish trick.
Please, learn to read in the future - it makes things go SO much smoother
My eyes work fine, thank you. Does your brain work?
You can change frequencies all you want, you are STILL bound by conservation of energy. If the borg can adapt to low megaton yields it DOES NOT mean they can perform the same feat with mid gigaton ranged yields. Even assuming they "somehow" find a way to adapt to even high-end turbolasers, their shield emiter/generators will be ripped right off the hull because their materials technology isn't advanced enough.
Vivftp. I really don't care how much you whine about it. You can't make energy just "dissapear". Your shields have to be able atleast match the output of an incoming beam weapon for any frequncy matching to work IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Your claim is strikingly similar to an analogy: That you can stop a bullet with a sheet paper becuase its the white kind instead of the yellow kind. Yellow or white, it is STILL a sheet of paper.
When the borg start sporting teraton ranged shields and power generators in the E23 watts range, come on back and we will discuss this. Until then, you have brought nothing but the same rehashed bullshit in a different package.
A more direct answer is that hypothetically the borg MIGHT be able to adapt to an SW weapon if it's energy yield does NOT exeed anything the borg have encountered before and successfully adapted to. This also means that adaptation will be useless after the turbolasers are cranked up from "laserpointer" mode to big ass beams of D00MZORZ becuase the power output of the turbolaser will be MUCH higher then the output of the borg shield.
Damnit Blunty, and here I thought you were being serious when you said your eyes work just fine.
I SAID a TL yield of high megaton/low gigaton - NOT the famed uber high GT yields SW is known for (If I'm not mistaken, the high MT/low GT yields would be for light TL's).
And what am I basing it off of for the yield? Well quite simply because from my calcs of the Enterprise deflector dish trick (using the stated output of the warp core while at impulse speeds in TNG's True Q - being 12.75 exawatts), we can gather that the amount of energy pushed through the deflector dish in a continuous beam was around 3GT/second for a period of 27 seconds (or 81GT). The Borg had already adapted to this weapon before it even opened fire, and they didn't suffer so much as a scratch from it.
Would you fucking read my post in its entirety! The last paragraph answers your speculation quite reasonably.
So the borg cube managed to stop less than halve the power of a SINGLE medium turbolaser shot. What the cube absorbed doesn't even hold a candle to what even an Aclamator is capable of.
Let me Reiterate since your comprehension skills seem to gone the way of the Dodo.
Hypotheticly, if the cube encountered a SW weapon "weak" enough (lets say something on the order of an X-wing laser cannon) to not destroy the ship outright, the borg MIGHT be able to adapt to that weapon type.
What I am stressing here is that adapting to kiloton/megaton level weapons does not mean you can adapt to gigaton/teraton level weapons, even if those weapons operate on the same principle. The reason for this is simple: Disparity in firepower and energy content. That energy MUST go somewhere and somewhere is directly into the emiters that generate the shield in the first place.
I hope your going to atleast PRETEND to try refute my points instead of your usual nitpicking and style over substance bullshit.
Not trying to be mean intentionally, but your getting very close to a No-Limits Fallacy.
Yes, it's very nice that the END of your post covered my questions, but the REST of your post was still going off on that tangent - and needed to be corrected.
Unfortunately ONCE again you're going off on the tangent. And bloody hell I'll say it for the last time. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RAW FIREPOWER HERE. I couldn't give a rats ass about firepower here - I'm ONLY talking about the frequency part of TL's. That's the ONLY issue I'm really addressing. I only mentioned high MT/low GT yields so that this issue wouldn't HAVE to be brought up - but you in your oh so ignorant ways decided to drag it up anyways.
ALL I'm wondering is why the Borg couldn't adapt to the whole "frequency range" of TL's... the raw firepower issue comes AFTER that, depending on which vessel they're facing.
They can only adaptn once they've faced a shot they managed to survive, so that they can transmit it's details to the rest of the Borg
First of all, I've been rather generous as most warsies would've shitcanned your remark about frequencies within a nanosecond of detection. It could VERY easily be argued that borg adaptation is useless against anything not frequency dependent (I mean trek style frequencies) as there has NEVER been one instance of borg adapting in anyway to threats outside of frequency changes.
Secondly, you were likely going to use the proposed adaptation of weaker SW weapons to claim that the borg can adapt to ALL SW weapons, regardless of size. I tend to nip things like that in bud before they get out of hand. If my assumption was incorrect, I apologize.
Third. If I can manage to dredge through all of the points brought up your posts (some of which make me go ), then you can go through mine with the same thoroughness. I will NOT change my posting style just because you couldn't take the time to read my WHOLE fucking post! Considering how short my post are compared to your's, there is NO reason at all for you to have missed my last paragraph. It was either intentional or you have the reading skills of two year old.
Which one could it be....
That's ok, it doesn't matter as far as what we're talking about. This is just in general
1st: Photon torpedos should be pretty widespread in the whole frequency mess - just like turbolasers (their detonation, not their shields)
2nd: Then feel free to apologize... I've been bringing this point up in other threads as of late over in the vs. section, I'm ONLY talking about adaptability to the weapon itself - power of the the weapon is another issue to take care of.
3rd: You went on a few paragraphs at the start of your post about something I was TRYING not to bring into this thread, then you make 1 post concerning what I'm talking about - the entire first bit does need to be addressed
As far as adaptability to smaller TLs and laser cannons, I willing to believe the borg can stop them. Of course I am a minority in that area as most warsies will cite the DET nature of turbolasers as reason enough to conclude borg adaptation as being useless. Feel free to swat down X-wings and TIE fighters, I won't stop you.
I'm curious as to what operating principle you subscribe to when it comes to turbolasers. I believe them to be massless, c. progating beams of exotic luxons myself.
*shrug* don't know, and don't have any information to go by. Don't even know wtf a luxon is, really.
As for your first paragraph... well as I said, high MT/low GT would fall into the range of light TL's, if I'm not mistaken (dunno if it goes into medium TL's)... so definately far more than X-Wings and Ties
As for the upper limit? We don't have one. The deflector dish trick is the only figure we have that we can even begin to try and actually quantify. And even then it might be a lower end value since we know they had to pump "serious power from the warp engines" into it, and the warp engines are the most power intensive thing on the ship (and the figure used was while the ship was just cruising along at impulse speeds)... but it's really all we have to go on.
Some may say First Contact is evidence of the Borg being overwhelmed by sheer firepower - I say it's an example of the Borg being overwhelmed by continuous remodulation of the Fed fleets wepaons. BoBW showed us that a weapon (phasers) can be adapt to so that there is zero damage done by it... but change the frequencies, and you might be able to get through the adaptations to do a little bit of damage. The deflector dish trick showed us that when a large amount of energy was pumped into a single shot that was already adapted to, it didn't even scratch the cube. Now taking those 2 bits of info, and looking at First Contact, unless the Fed fleet was conducting ramming tactics on the cube or had a FAAAAAR larger fleet then we thought there, then it almost definately would have had to've been remodulations in the weapons that damaged the cube.
But anyways... wtf are turbolaers?
X-Wing with 80GB blaster?
Man, that's comes straight from King wankdom himself
I... I don't want this shit in the general forum...
I think you are missing the point, Bluntman is pointing out that even if the borg were able to assimiate the weapons frequency, where does the absorbed energy go to?
He's saying that given enough time and energy, whatever is storing the extra energy will overload and explode rendering the "assimilation of phase variance" useless....
Back to the topic of what a turbolaser is. I heard it was some kind of plasma based weapon. The bolts certainly don't move at lightspeed and that is what is doing the damage.
Actually, why dont you visit Mike Wongs site and have a look at the Turbolaser Commentarys... they are a VERY detailed Um.. Thesis on the turbolaser with many sources and proofs...
Dont worry, SDN wont kill you....
The canonical description of Turbolasers is a lightspeed energy beam of whatever duration, with a glowy green thingy that ...glows and is supposed to act as a tracer.
deal with it.
vivftp, I need some questions answered:
1) What is the frequency of a phaser measuring?
2) What is the frequency of a ST shield measuring?
3) What is the frequency of a turbolaser measuring?
4) What is the frequency of a SW shield measuring?
Are they all measuring the same thing?
If they are not measuring the same thing, then, there is no frequency you can set the ST shields at in order to be more effective against turbolasers.
In ST, it has been theorized that the frequency is an on/off frequency. A phaser of the same frequency can get through if it is 180 degrees out of phase with the shield (it is on while the shield is off, and visa versa). If it is in phase with the shield (both on at the same time, both off at the same time), then the phaser will be blocked.
If ST phasers and shields frequencies are referring to something else, then what is it? And why does matching frequency change things?
Next, you must show that a turbolaser frequency is referring to the same thing. They might not be the same thing. And, if they aren't, then all this frequency-talk means absolutely nothing.