A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies

Darkstorm Zero

Darkstorm Zero

The Storm of Swords
I'm basing this off of a thread I did on KMC Here and I would like to gather a few opinions from you fine folk here at Spacebattles.

For the rules
1. The combatants that are fighting. = A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies
2. The Location or Setting of the contest. = The Battlefields are Arda and planetos
3. Victory Conditions = Total Global Conquest must be achieved.
4. Battle Prerequisites = The armies do not know their enemies strength or numbers. Outside of this, I would give each side 5 years preparation time.
a. Motivation = No holds barred
b. Equipment = Standard equipment for both sides, named characters get their best gear obviously.
c. Preparation = As I say, 5 years each, but no foreknowledge of enemy numbers or types.
d. 'Bloodlust' = As neccesary to achieve conquest. Prisoners can be taken as according to competent strategy and tactics as needed.
e. Knowledge = No
5. Period for combatants = Until conquest is achieved, however long that takes.
6. Continuity or Canon = Composite canon for both sides, but books take presedence. Restricted the Lord of the Rings armies to Last Alliance and 3rd Age only, as 2nd age stuff and earlier is nuts for Tolkienverse. And no further back than the start of the first book for ASOIAF. The other books for both series can still be referenced for lore as needed though.
 
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book GoT or TV GoT? latter may have a chance, since the lannisters alone fielded 60,000 well-armed and armored infantry (who still stood their ground against tens of thousands of dothraki and a damned dragon) plus cavalry, with various other houses fielding armies in the tens of thousands...

Book GoT gets stomped on.
 
Are both sides going to be entirely on one force? If so who's the commander-in-chief for both? Because I'm having this image of the Council of Elrond with Sauron there and everyone sort of looking awkwardly at him as he asks has anyone seen the Great Ring, because it will be useful for conquest.
 
Honestly, ASoIAF gets stomped because LotR has Smaug, Scatha, and however many other dragons are alive (lesser dragons still exist after Smaug) in the Third Age.
 
Well, GOT doesn't have the capacity for global conquest, whereas the more magical factions of LoTR should. Only one side of this debate can even fulfill the win condition. So that clears that up pretty quickly.



Xenospartan653 said:
book GoT or TV GoT? latter may have a chance, since the lannisters alone fielded 60,000 well-armed and armored infantry (who still stood their ground against tens of thousands of dothraki and a damned dragon) plus cavalry, with various other houses fielding armies in the tens of thousands...

Book GoT gets stomped on.
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Excuse me, where on earth does that 60,000 number come from?


Show GOT armies are also way worse thanks to hollywood tactics.
 
shipmastersane said:
So that wasn't the army that stood their ground against the dothraki, they would be the Ten thousand that remained from that army.
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I think he was was just saying that the Lannister army is experienced and well-disciplined in general, to the point they stood their ground even against Dothrakis and a Dragon, then mentioned the number of said army prior to any conflicts.

Basically "We have seen Lannisters hold their ground against a Dragon and Dothraki, and the Lannisters had 60 thousand troups at the beginning of the war of the five Kings", is what I think he meant.
 
Featherine said:
I think he was was just saying that the Lannister army is experienced and well-disciplined in general, to the point they stood their ground even against Dothrakis and a Dragon, then mentioned the number of said army prior to any conflicts.
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But that makes it sound like the original army was sixty thousand hard asses that would stand and face a dragon and dothraki even when outnumbered, rather than the remaining ten thousand being... well, the kind of men who would still be alive and fighting after years of constant fighting.

That those last ten thousand are so resolute probably has something to do with the fact that they're the last ten thousand.
 
shipmastersane said:
But that makes it sound like the original army was sixty thousand hard asses that would stand and face a dragon and dothraki even when outnumbered, rather than the remaining ten thousand being... well, the kind of men who would still be alive and fighting after years of constant fighting.

That those last ten thousand are so resolute probably has something to do with the fact that they're the last ten thousand.
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That's one way to look at things I guess.

It's kind of hard to believe only the best of the best survived and only the best of the best just happened to be selected for this random mission. It's often mentioned that the Lannister army is well-disciplined and well-equipped, we even have Tyrion dedicating 5 minutes of screen time just to sing their praise when the Unsullied capture Casterly Rock in the show. Of course they're not all amazing soldiers and there definitely are cowards/people with lesser courage in their ranks, that's a given, but I don't really think there's much of a problem with using this battle as an indication of the Lannister army's overall performance in dire situations. That said, at that point they believed their ballistae could actually harm Dragons in a significant manner so it's possible they held their ground with this in mind, they might have routed much faster if they had known they would be ineffective from the start, who knows.

Anyway OP said Books take precedence so the numbers would be vastly different. For instance pretty sure the army the Lannisters were fielding was closer to... 30 or 35 thousands IIRC, not counting the ones left at castles/fortresses.
 
Featherine said:
That's one way to look at things I guess.

It's kind of hard to believe only the best of the best survived and only the best of the best just happened to be selected for this random mission. It's often mentioned that the Lannister army is well-disciplined and well-equipped, we even have Tyrion dedicating 5 minutes of screen time just to sing their praise when the Unsullied capture Casterly Rock in the show. Of course they're not all amazing soldiers and there definitely are cowards/people with lesser courage in their ranks, that's a given, but I don't really think there's much of a problem with using this battle as an indication of the Lannister army's overall performance in dire situations. That said, at that point they believed their ballistae could actually harm Dragons in a significant manner so it's possible they held their ground with this in mind, they might have routed much faster if they had known they would be ineffective from the start, who knows.

Anyway OP said Books take precedence so the numbers would be vastly different. For instance pretty sure the army the Lannisters were fielding was closer to... 30 or 35 thousands IIRC, not counting the ones left at castles/fortresses.
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I mean, I don't see how theres another way to look at it. There was a sixty thousand man professional army, only ten thousand remain now after years of war, and a single unit from the remaining ten thousand showed substantial toughness, not even fighting prowess or acumen, just very good cohesion, in the face of a terror.

You certainly cannot reasonably extrapolate anything from these men to the original sixty thousand.
 
shipmastersane said:
I mean, I don't see how theres another way to look at it. There was a sixty thousand man professional army, only ten thousand remain now after years of war, and a single unit from the remaining ten thousand showed substantial toughness, not even fighting prowess or acumen, just very good cohesion, in the face of a terror.

You certainly cannot reasonably extrapolate anything from these men to the original sixty thousand.
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You do make a fine point. Also, remember that just because there was 60,000 in the beginning doesn't mean further levies weren't called up. After all, this was *years* of war. Plus, wasn't Ed Sheeran's group a squad of new soldiers going to the army?
 
Book westeros get raped, show westeros gets raped so hard that even slaanesh finds it's too extreme for it's tastes.
 
Xenospartan653 said:
You do make a fine point. Also, remember that just because there was 60,000 in the beginning doesn't mean further levies weren't called up. After all, this was *years* of war. Plus, wasn't Ed Sheeran's group a squad of new soldiers going to the army?
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I thought it was rather telling how far away from the "front" so to speak, those green recruits were. The men with Jaimie were the ones who smashed through Highgarden like wrecking balls.
 
shipmastersane said:
Just not -as- bad, and with more super powers.
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their tactics have consisted of

1. charging
2. encircling
3. charging with ladders
4. charging with olog-hai
5. charging with siege towers
6. testudo

On the show, we've seen

1. charging
2. encircling
3. shield wall
4. charging with ladders
5. charging with heavy cavalry

perhaps more with the Unsullied, can't remember.

their tactics are pretty similar. At least GoT has the numbers advantage. Especially with 5 years prep. LOTR has Sauron/Nazgul, so that will probably tip the balance.
 
shipmastersane said:
I mean, I don't see how theres another way to look at it. There was a sixty thousand man professional army, only ten thousand remain now after years of war, and a single unit from the remaining ten thousand showed substantial toughness, not even fighting prowess or acumen, just very good cohesion, in the face of a terror.

You certainly cannot reasonably extrapolate anything from these men to the original sixty thousand.
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Because we have absolutely no reason to believe they were special snowflakes. Like, if we had even a single statement about this specific unit being an elite among their peers or something, I would agree, but we really don't. We have, on the other hand, many statements about the Lannister army's quality, the "Lannister army", not "a select few units among sixty thousand".

The army that Jaime commanded was "scattered" after his capture in the show, it's debatable what that means, could be they disbanded or were destroyed. In the books I think only something like 4k survived.
 
So this is basically Arda in its entirety vs. Planetos in its entirety? Does anyone know what kinds of numbers each side could throw around here?
 
Tactics in the Lord of the Rings films have included some right bullshit, such as using the Were Worms to tunnel through mountains to open up the enemy flank.



Yeaah.
 
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