A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies

Dovahkiin said:
So this is basically Arda in its entirety vs. Planetos in its entirety? Does anyone know what kinds of numbers each side could throw around here?
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George R R Martin and J R R Tolkien.

It's frankly undebateable because we've no idea what is going on in Asshai. It could be a serious threat, it could be all hyperbole.

Likewise we've no idea what the strength of Rhun might be, what the 'nameless things' older than Sauron in Lord of the Rings actually are and what strength they have, and so on.
 
Movie LOTR has superior humans running around, crazy arrow spamming elfs, giant worms that can burrow under mountains, nazguls, sauron, black numenorians, a fortress that makes casterly rock looks like a tiny outpost, crazy large "elephants", an army of ghosts, armored trolls, fellbeasts, a culture with a large number of cavalry troops, heavy infantry in the form of easterlings (basically roman legions that are knows to fight till the last man), sentient dragons and lets not forget the VERY large armies of orcs (who have a suprisingly competent command structure, especially if you include the Hobbit).

What does westeros have? Both book and show wank a very shitty copy of the mongols and a very badly equiped phalanx army that contains weak eunuchs that get wanked as the best army ever.
 
Xenospartan653 said:
their tactics have consisted of

1. charging
2. encircling
3. charging with ladders
4. charging with olog-hai
5. charging with siege towers
6. testudo

On the show, we've seen

1. charging
2. encircling
3. shield wall
4. charging with ladders
5. charging with heavy cavalry

perhaps more with the Unsullied, can't remember.

their tactics are pretty similar. At least GoT has the numbers advantage. Especially with 5 years prep. LOTR has Sauron/Nazgul, so that will probably tip the balance.
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Wow, thats a pretty massive oversimplification.


In LoTR we see way more in the way of dense, cohesive formations. In GoT virtually every battle turns into a goofy mosh pit of men running past each other and intermingling. Theres a way bigger focus on both cavalry and Archery, with LoTR cavalry performing in extremely supernatural ways.


Further, as I said, the infantry in LoTR is just markedly more superhuman.



Featherine said:
Because we have absolutely no reason to believe they were special snowflakes.
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Besides the fact that these are the ten thousand who diddnt die or abandon the army after years of brutal war, who apparently trounced the entrenched, well armed, well armored, and well trained Tyrell army (and no, a throwaway line about Tyrells being bad at fighting doesn't change that) serving directly under Jaimie Lannister.


Besides every reason to believe they're a bad example, they're not a bad example!
 
shipmastersane said:
Besides the fact that these are the ten thousand who diddnt die or abandon the army after years of brutal war, who apparently trounced the entrenched, well armed, well armored, and well trained Tyrell army (and no, a throwaway line about Tyrells being bad at fighting doesn't change that) serving directly under Jaimie Lannister.


Besides every reason to believe they're a bad example, they're not a bad example!
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But... the army Jaime commands is the army that mostly stayed out of the conflict ? The army he himself commanded and was at the forefront of the war of the five kings was mostly wiped out, only something like 4k surviving in the books.
 
DarkOZ said:
Both book and show wank a very shitty copy of the mongols and a very badly equiped phalanx army that contains weak eunuchs that get wanked as the best army ever.
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And until their in-universe reputations are backed up by feats (and they haven't been), it's just that. Meaningless wank. Let's at least work with the actual substance of each side here.

Never mind the fact that they're both mainly hyped up in Essos, which honestly doesn't mean much for Planetos' overall capability.
 
GoT: They have numerical advantage but has never displayed any form of sensible tactics/strategy. Even so, LOTR armies wins at ease as they has displayed cohesion understanding of tactics/strategy plus they have superhuman warriors. Not mention that OP says last alliance for LOTR, which it includes large amount of Noldor elves and Númenóreans, they stomp horribly against GoT. Not even most numerous westero army can stand against might of hax-level aimbotting superhuman elves along equally superhuman humans.
 
Would the night king play a role in this? He can convert any fallen being into his army. The only thing that could negate him is the witch king or one of the istari + sauron.
 
Or y'know, an invisible assassin. Sauron has (even by the end of the third age recovered several of) the dwarven rings of power. Give one to Aragorn, enjoy your invisible ranger with a magic sword.

Tolkien clarifies, in case there's any doubt, in Letter #131, that the Seven and Nine conferred invisibility to (a human) user as well as unending life.

It gets even more hilarious with the time-bending here. Invisible Elendil anyone?
 
Xadlin said:
Would the night king play a role in this? He can convert any fallen being into his army. The only thing that could negate him is the witch king or one of the istari + sauron.
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so westros not only gets a massive corpse army, but every time they lose troops the Night King can just replenish them. Plus, anti-dragon javelins (Smaug was killed by a single arrow...) and commanders that are immune to anything not valyrian steel (all controlled by Planetos) or obsidian (which LOTR has given no inclination of having)
 
Dovahkiin said:
So this is basically Arda in its entirety vs. Planetos in its entirety? Does anyone know what kinds of numbers each side could throw around here?
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Well, if we're compositing the films and books for Mordor for the better of both, for example...

We have anywhere from 100k-300k at Minas Tirith, and at least one other entire army of that size elsewhere. How many garrison the fortresses of Mordor or range in those lands is unclear besides "Tens of thousands", and we know that Mordor has been pulling in easterlings aside from all of this, and if the "thousands every day" remark is even remotely serious, there are an awful lot of them as well. Not going into the monsters, the complete muster of all the lands Sauron controls at the end of the third age, given another five years of production could be anywhere from five hundred thousand to over a million. I do not know of any film estimates of his armies at the time of the Last Alliance, besides that there were many thousands. Isengard contributes "Tens of thousands" by Saruman's estimate, after only a relatively brief period of production (a few years at most)

Orcs and Uruk Hai can be mass produced and have their growth accelerated in the films, so there is really no sustaining a war against them with men. You either win early or never, really.


That's really just the infantry of the evil faction of LoTR. Not even going into the many thousands produced by the other races. Not only the contemporary Gondor and Rohan, but also those kingdoms of the past, including the ones that produced the alliance that drove Sauron's forces all the way into the heart of Mordor, and considering the scale of his armies in the current age arrayed against a less united foe, and the scale of the military operation needed to conquer and hold middle earth from Mordor, that must have been a very significant force indeed.

This not going into the, particularly in the films, very much supernatural Dwarves and Elves or again, the monsters.


Westeros, from what I can tell, can pull together some hundreds of thousands of men, at least more than one anyway, the Dothraki could conceivably pull together another hundred thousand riders, and The Golden Company is said to consist of 20,000 men, that combined with Danny's army of comparable but lesser size being considered extremely significant means that the city-states probably do not muster armies of greater scale.


The biggest concern is wether the conquerors can hire mercenaries, press gang populations, or ally with natives. Because if you started marching a giant magical army through the cultures of Planetos, you'd have kings and mercenary bands tripping over themselves in a rush to betray each other to you.


Featherine said:
But... the army Jaime commands is the army that mostly stayed out of the conflict ? The army he himself commanded and was at the forefront of the war of the five kings was mostly wiped out, only something like 4k surviving in the books.
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What evidence do you have that the men at Highgarden were men that stayed out of the entire war? Why could those 4k not have meaningfully contributed to the forces alive at the end of the war? Why could the other six not have also been veterans, as indeed it stands to reason that they are?

Are you perhaps confusing my statement about Jaimie leading them? Because Jaimie has lead more than one force of men in the franchise.
 
Xenospartan653 said:
(Smaug was killed by a single arrow...)
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Sure if you want to forget the fact that the rest of his body is covered in diamonds and harden gems and the only reason he died was because Bard, a descendant of Girion who was the Lord of Dale fired a Black Arrow which was a family heirloom passed down from generation to generation and was described to be enchanted to him, also not to mention that Bard only knew of Smaug's one weak spot because Bilbo's bird told him exactly where the weak spot was.
 
Umm.

You're aware that the stated intention of the designers of the movies is that Orthanc is entirely made of obsidian in the movies? It's a giant tower of the stuff. And we're treating the movies as secondary canon here, so... yeah, the Numenorians have a shit-tonne of it.

And what's more they can further enchant it for strength, as in the books Orthanc has ancient proto-Gondorian spell-works upon it that make it impossible to scratch.

And of course, beyond that, the men of Angmar also made blades specifically to kill undead beings.
 
Xenospartan653 said:
so westros not only gets a massive corpse army, but every time they lose troops the Night King can just replenish them. Plus, anti-dragon javelins (Smaug was killed by a single arrow...) and commanders that are immune to anything not valyrian steel (all controlled by Planetos) or obsidian (which LOTR has given no inclination of having)
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So, if we're bringing undead into this, Middle earth has one of those, and they're intangible.
 
NecronLord said:
Umm.

You're aware that the stated intention of the designers of the movies is that Orthanc is entirely made of obsidian in the movies? It's a giant tower of the stuff. And we're treating the movies as secondary canon here, so... yeah, the Numenorians have a shit-tonne of it.

And what's more they can further enchant it for strength, as in the books Orthanc has ancient proto-Gondorian spell-works upon it that make it impossible to scratch.

And of course, beyond that, the men of Angmar also made blades specifically to kill undead beings.
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that's incredibly stupid. Obsidian makes awful stuff to make a castle out of. But, I didn't know that, so thanks.
Aesunity said:
Sure if you want to forget the fact that the rest of his body is covered in diamonds and harden gems and the only reason he died was because Bard, a descendant of Girion who was the Lord of Dale fired a Black Arrow which was a family heirloom passed down from generation to generation and was described to be enchanted to him, also not to mention that Bard only knew of Smaug's one weak spot because Bilbo's bird told him exactly where the weak spot was.
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you mean that his entire underbelly, if he didn't have treasure stuck to it, was vulnerable to arrows? And sure, he was related, and had magical help - but one of the largest dragons in the third age (if I am not mistaken) was killed by one man, with a bow. And his entire underbelly would have been vulnerable if he didn't have treasure plastered over it.

Compare that to ASOIAF dragons like Balerion the Black Dread, or 7th-season Drogon. Drogon is able to take a friggen ballista bolt to the shoulder and still is able to fly. Arrows don't even scratch his belly plating. Balerion was so large he blotted out entire towns. He's estimated to be 70-80 meters long. Smaug, via tolkein, was 25 meters long. Drogon's around as large, yet apparently is better armored. Balerion is practically invincible except for magic.

LOTR wins due to massive numbers and black magic.
 
Xenospartan653 said:
that's incredibly stupid. Obsidian makes awful stuff to make a castle out of. But, I didn't know that, so thanks.


you mean that his entire underbelly, if he didn't have treasure stuck to it, was vulnerable to arrows? And sure, he was related, and had magical help - but one of the largest dragons in the third age (if I am not mistaken) was killed by one man, with a bow. And his entire underbelly would have been vulnerable if he didn't have treasure plastered over it.

Compare that to ASOIAF dragons like Balerion the Black Dread, or 7th-season Drogon. Drogon is able to take a friggen ballista bolt to the shoulder and still is able to fly. Arrows don't even scratch his belly plating. Balerion was so large he blotted out entire towns. He's estimated to be 70-80 meters long. Smaug, via tolkein, was 25 meters long. Drogon's around as large, yet apparently is better armored. Balerion is practically invincible except for magic.

LOTR wins due to massive numbers and black magic.
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Magic weapons in Tolkien are super penetrative. In the book, Sting impaled itself through the foot of the Cave Troll, and Boromir chipped his sword beating on that thing and couldn't cut it reliably.
 
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