Best Cruisers of World War II?

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by pheonix89, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Vulpes zerda

    If you remove the Baltimore, you have to strike just about every Japanese, German, and Italian cruiser as well.
    They didn't just bend the rules but shattered them.

    The best Treaty that didn't cheat too much is the Wichita.
  2. SuperS4

    SuperS4 I need a new witty Custom Title. Thoughts? "Special"

    Damn you, you stole my line! I'll get you for that some day Shrike, remember that! [​IMG]
  3. Shrike

    Shrike Smug Deity

    You are the flagship of my heart.

    SuperS4 likes this.
  4. CV12Hornet

    CV12Hornet Home base to the madmen.

    Oh really?

    It's hardly the Atlanta class' fault that the one surface engagement they were in involved them going up against a pair of battleships and a fuckton of destroyers in a confused melee more at home during the Anglo-Dutch wars. In fact, let's compare the Atlanta class to ships of similar displacement.

    The Atlantas were 6700 ton ships with 12 5" guns, a top speed of 32.5 knots, and a 3.75" armor belt. Other cruisers in the same weight class were:

    Leander: 7000 tons, 8 6", 32.5 knots, 4" belt. Throw weight: 7168 lbs vs 9900 lbs. Conclusion: slight advantage to Leander for thicker belt. Not something I'd like to rely on, though.

    Nurnberg: 6980 tons, 9 5.9", 32 knots, 2" armor belt. Throw weight: 9000 lbs vs 9900 lbs. Conclusion: thicker belt gives Atlanta a slight advantage. Earlier German cruisers suffer compared to Atlanta.

    Duguay-Trouin: 7250 tons, 8 6.1", 33 knots, .8" belt. Throw weight: 5200 lbs vs. 9900 lbs. Conclusion: Atlantas would wipe the floor with these ships.

    Furutaka: 7100 tons, 6 8", 34.5 knots, 3" belt. Throw weight: 4996 lbs vs 9900 lbs. Conclusion: I'd bet on the Furutakas, due to the 8" guns.

    Raimondo Montecuccoli: 7405 tons, 8 6", 37 knots, 2.4" belt. Throw weight: 7080 lbs vs 9900 lbs. Conclusion: greater throw weight and thicker armor belt give the Atlanta class the advantage.

    De Ruyter: 6442 tons, 7 5.9", 32 knots, 2" belt. Throw weight: 5026 lbs vs 9900 lbs. Conclusion: Atlanta takes this.

    Tre Kronor: 7400 tons, 7 6", 33 knots, 2.8" belt. Throw weight: 7070 lbs vs 9900 lbs. Conclusion: slight advantage to Atlanta.

    Looks like the Atlanta class can match other cruisers within it's weight class.
  5. Baltimore and Cleveland classes for CA and CL Honorable mention to the Brooklyn class...machine gun cruisers
  6. If looks matter at all I really love how the Choukai looked. This probably should apply to all of the Takao class but the Choukai looks different in the pictures to my eye. The fact that it was sunk by the guns of an escort carrier probably keep it out of the rankings of best job done, but it also puts it in the running for interesting stories.

    What's with calling the Takao a tsundere? I think I'm missing something
  7. CV12Hornet

    CV12Hornet Home base to the madmen.

    Actually, Chokai was only crippled by the escort carrier; she was actually sunk by Taffy 2 Avengers. Chikuma, on the other hand, got into a duel with a destroyer escort and got mauled, while the DE got away unscathed.
  8. Whiskey Golf

    Whiskey Golf Already a Demon BETA

    In the manga Arpeggio of Blue Steel, the world is savaged by uberwarships - the Fleet of Fog - that appear to be WW2 warships on the outside, but pack a ridiculous amount of torpedoes, missile spam, energy shields and wave motion guns. Also, capships of heavy cruiser class (at least) have Mental Models; ships' avatars who are (so far) all female, and all rather pretty.

    Takao is a key character, as much of the early manga involves her attempts to hunt down the protagonist, the human captain of 1-401. Officially, this is because Gunzou Chihaya is carrying data for a weapon that can kill Fog warships. In reality, this is because after a few scraps, Takao has fallen for the captain who's bested her, and desires him to captain her.

    There is a hilarious image of Takao's room, where she's curled up next to a Gunzou hugging pillow and surrounded by photos of him.

    Having said that, Tsundere Takao is Tsundere: when she finally meets Gunzou face to face, she intends to confess to him and beg him to become her captain. (And lover.)

    Instead, too embarrassed to confess, she instead demands that he hand over the data for the secret weapon. :p
  9. Major Major

    Major Major Nemo me impune lacessit

    And then her mini-mental models and Hyuuga's MM all berate her for chickening out.
  10. Shrike

    Shrike Smug Deity

    Apparently Chikuma took at least four air-launched torpedoes during that engagement; if anything that's what killed her.

    By any reasonable measure, taking four torpedoes before going down is a pretty good showing.
  11. MobiusOneDT

    MobiusOneDT Red Tail Leader

    Chikuma was also crippled by air launched torpedoes, the concensus is that she either sank of her own accord or she was scuttled by the destroyer Nowaki while evacuating hers survivors. . . and subsequently sunk with all hands including the remaining crewmen from the Chikuma.
  12. I have currently little access to sources other than wiki, but according to it big Japanese cruisers were actually within treaty limits and Italian Zara class were not that much beyond limits - so they could count. Of course Hippers are almost Baltimore sized :)
  13. Yes.

    The special common shell was 25kg with armour penetration of 2'' (50mm) at 11.000 yards and 3'' at 7.400 yards
    Those ranges are spitting distances and still most of the ship you mentioned are protected from this fire.
    Adding that Atlanta carried very limited number of special common shells.
    In a engagement with a cruiser Atlanta will be forced to firing AA shells at a ship that was design, build and expected to take multiple hits from 6'' guns or sometimes 8'' fire.
    Common AA shell has 1,5'' at 10.000yards

    For comparison France 152mm/55 model 1930
    fired a shells that was 37kg and had penetration of 4,8'' at 10.900yards

    You can argue that volume of fire will off set relative small destructive shell power.
    That Atlanta will be able to soft kill the enemy cruiser.

    However this is not the battle of Yalu river where QF guns wrecked Chinese battleship and cruiser.
    Ranges are quite different. Ships much more resistant.
    Atlanta gun houses will be can easily destroyed, while the return fire will be ineffective on the enemy turrets.

    All of the cruiser you mention will be able to defeat Atlanta armour at all but the most extreme ranges.
  14. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Vulpes zerda

    As built, they had a lot of engineering problems. Their hull required stiffening and their were unstable were two.
    When rebuilt, they ended up way above treaty limits
    Takao class ended up being 13,400 standard (Standard was suppose to be 10,000), 14,838 normal, 15,781 standard
    Mogami end up being 11,200 standard (Standard was suppose to be 8500), 13,440 standard, no listing for full.

    Source - Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945, Naval Institute Press
    From other sources, I believe these are conservative actually.

    From Fiedman's US Cruisers
    Witchita end up as 9,779.19 light ship, 10,565.2 standard, and 11,581 design
    Baltimore ended up as 12,576.88 light ship, 13,600 standard, and 14,970 design

    Source - US Cruisers - Illustrated Design History
    Also mentions that the Japanese cruisers were far heavier than designs as built
  15. I know that this was the problem with Mogami but was it the same with other classes?

    I take that you mean heavier as build than as designs? This could actually explain why several pages lists Takao class as having 9.850 standard and around 14.600 full.
  16. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Vulpes zerda

    Just about every Japanese cruiser gained considerable displacement when rebuilt while US cruiser did not have to be rebuilt in a similar manner.

    You might want to ask ickysdad by PM to see if he has Japanese Cruisers of the Pacific War
    Might give more details. The book is shockingly expensive however. Could try an interlibrary loan as well.
    Alcatur likes this.
  17. CV12Hornet

    CV12Hornet Home base to the madmen.

    Yes, I am arguing that volume will compensate for lack of penetration. Why do you think so many navies moved to very big light cruisers over heavy cruisers? And 5" guns are quite capable of soft killing a cruiser. During the Battle of Leyte Gulf, the Heavy cruiser Chikuma was hit by over 50 5" shells, causing fires, internal explosions, and knocking out one of the gunhouses. And this was from a two-gun DE. A twelve-gun Atlanta, given Japanese shooting that day, would've shredded the ship.
  18. pheonix89

    pheonix89 Wannabe Game Developer

    IIRC that DE pulled up so close that Chikuma couldn't depress the guns to hit it and so was firing with impunity. An Atlanta can't do that.
  19. True. But an Atlanta can sit at close range and put 5 5" shells per second into it. Those 5"/38cal guns could fire 22+ rpm each, a good crew could get 28rpm in bursts. Throw in some WP shells in with the HE spam and you will shred the other cruiser. 50 hits for a DE is a full minute of fire at high ROF. For an Atlanta, it's 10 seconds.
  20. CV12Hornet

    CV12Hornet Home base to the madmen.

    And those throw weight figures I was doing earlier? I was being conservative for the RoF for the 5"/38 and picked the lower 15 rounds per minute the Navweps page gave.
  21. Seriously? Ok. some math assuming high ROF:
    55lb shell at 23rpm: 1265lb/minute
    Times 12 guns: 15,180lb/minute

    Going by your numbers, an Atlanta can shoot double the weight of anything in its weight class. Sure, the shells have low penetration, but i don't think you radar, AA guns, and whatever else is on deck will care. How effective is WP spam at a ship?
  22. Gosu

    Gosu Read this very carefully, I wrote it only once

    The Japanese designers would draw up a treaty compliant ship, then hand off the designs. The admirals would demand basically 'more more more' which would drive up weight and against which the not-admirals were very weak, and the shipyards had no quality control in place to make sure the weight going into the ship were as was intended quite apart from the demands for more of the explodey stuffs.

    The result was ships that were terribly overweight as built, unstable, and had to be rebuilt for additional stability once a ship actually capsized and it all came out.

    As a consequence of the weight gain the designers cut ever more steel from the hull designs, so that in the late thirties some destroyers and cruisers were shown to be incapable of weathering a storm without severe damage. This lead to rebuilding cruisers before they had even been launched.

    US cruisers had far better controls to make sure the ships did not gain too much mass while being built and also the admirals were somewhat conversant with the idea that if you add 'more more more' to a ship, you'll reach the point where it won't float well. Apparently the Spanish Navy recently had to relearn this lesson as well.

    That said, the US was not totally free of these issues, but it was candle next to the IJN's sun. The Brooklyns were considered too lightly built, but it never reached the levels where the ships were dangerous to themselves.

    The Clevelands had no weight growth margin at all, basically too small a hull to cope with any changes without removing something else first, unlike the Baltimores. They didn't last that long in service as a result but again, as designed, they sufficed.
  23. Gosu

    Gosu Read this very carefully, I wrote it only once

    Depends. Yahagi took seven, but was finished after the first which left her dead in the water. Likewise, Shoho took five as well but that also was overkill. And from what I can find on Chikuma, she also took one torpedo in the the engine rooms after which she became a mostly stationary target.
    MobiusOneDT likes this.
  24. Desert Fox

    Desert Fox Vulpes zerda

    I think I remember reading about deck buckling from firing their guns