"Caliphate"-by Tom Kratman

[Hotpoint]

Hotpoint, I'm German.

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Consider me astonished!

Fact is, muslim influence on public life already is far exceeding their actual numbers here.

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I was under the impression that there were hundreds of thousands of Turks in Germany that couldn't vote (including those born there). To me that says they can't be that powerful surely?

Or have they all been granted the franchise now?

 

[Muad'zin]

Hotpoint, I'm German.

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And yet, with all due respect, you always manage to come across as some alarmist rightwing American nutter.

And describing the German media as rightwing would be the best joke told in a long time. In fact, roughly 75% of it is staunchly leftwing, with the remaining quarter made up of conservatives and economic liberals. Fact is, muslim influence on public life already is far exceeding their actual numbers here, and there is no indicator that this might stop once their numbers have even more drastically changed in relation to the majority population.

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I suspect you see what you want to see.

Also, there is no such thing as The Muslims, just as there is no such thing as The Germans. Last time I checked a large part of Germany voted right of center, a large part voted right of center and then there were some who voted extreme left/right. Hardly a monolithic block. And nothing I see of the various Muslim minoroties in Western Europe leads me to suspect that they are a monolithic block as well.

 

[Posbi]

I was under the impression that there were hundreds of thousands of Turks in Germany that couldn't vote (including those born there). To me that says they can't be that powerful surely?

Or have they all been granted the franchise now?

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There has been a drive to naturalize them (is that the right word?) ever since the Red-Green coalition came into power in 1998, but there still are a good many who aren't German citizens. Some say the christian democrats lost the '02 elections because of some thirty thousand Turks voting for the incumbents (a nation I don't share at all; the CDU lost because it had a lousy campaign and a Bavarian as candidate for Chancellor ), but their representation on a federal level is marginal besides some seats gained through their membership in the Green party and the social democrats. On local levels, well, there's a difference. Still, accurate representation is not necessary to enact influence.

For one, their associations do really effective lobby work, for another, there are other ways to exercise dominance than political representation. Street violence, voluntary segregation & he creation of de facto muslim rule in majoriyt muslim quarters, dependance on social service transfers (and the implicit threat of violence in case that is threatened), increasing demands (that more often than not are eagerly met), increasing trends of radicalization among the younger generations, you get the idea. If you have large parts of major cities where de facto parallel justice systems and cultures have developed and where you can live pretty much like in Islamabad even though your in the heart of Northrhine-Westphalia, you have a bit of a problem.

I'm not trying to make things look worse than they are. The majority of Muslims in Germany - and most likely Europe - are moderates like you and me who want to just live their lives. But believing in the moderates is a fallacy in itself, because as soon as you have significant numbers of radicals, moderates become statist.

It's worse in some places, less so in others. A more general fact is that those quarters where it's worse are getting more while the other's are getting fewer in numbers, also because those non-muslims (and secular muslims) who can leave do leave. Pretty much every larger city has them, and they are metastacizing into their surroundings with an astonishing speed, a process that's not met with any kind of resistance (and no, that does not mean I envision violent resistance).

 

[Posbi]

And yet, with all due respect, you always manage to come across as some alarmist rightwing American nutter.

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Yes, and you always manage to impress me with your stance of a head-in-the-sand, run-of-the-mill leftwing European.

I suspect you see what you want to see.

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Depends on what part of my statement you commented on. The stance of the press is a matter of facts so hard that it's part of political science courses (Wolfgang Rudzio. "Das politische System der BRD", 2007). But in general, quite possible, which would make us two already. Only I have observable trends to back my alarmist rightwing nutjobbery, while you only have a river in Egypt.

Last time I checked a large part of Germany voted right of center, a large part voted right of center and then there were some who voted extreme left/right.

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So we had two large parts voting right of center? Well, if you want to lump both the SPD and the CDU in the right of center category (which even the CDU hardly fits anymore), be my guest.

And nothing I see of the various Muslim minoroties in Western Europe leads me to suspect that they are a monolithic block as well.

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Well, there are general trends that apply to all of them. All of them live in self-segregated districts, all identfy as members of the Ummah, and all as affected by severe trends of radicalization even though normal patterns of immigration and integration should show the complete opposite of it. All demand special accomodation in some way, be it halal meals, excemption from certain activities, extra prayer time, etc. And yes, that's generalized, because that's the only kind of statement you can possibly make about such large demographic groups.

Yes, I know you think of me as an alarmist nutjob, and I say, okay, maybe I am. If in a couple of decades it turns out you were right and I was wrong, all the better for all of us, and I'll bite myself in the ass because I've wasted so much time contemplating the opposite. But what if you are wrong and I am generally right? What if it doesn't just magically turn out all nice...?

 

[FBH]

Here, let me rephrase that for you:

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Right sure they are

Back in your alternate universe now.

 

[FBH]

Actually that's a bad example, I mean if you look at the 19th century and compare it to the late twentieth and now in Europe, you can see that workers won a vast majority of what they want and are catered to by the politicians with the creation the progressive social welfare network.

Or in other words, they got what they wanted because they are the majority who elected people in/or governments did action to bribe them off

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Actually, you're completely wrong

In fact, the people who got what they wanted are the middle classes. You still don't see many workers in any kind of positions of power. The means of production are overwhelmingly owned by capitalists and while certain provisions have been made to look after the poor, they're hardly overwhelming (I'd say they're in fact rather inadequate)

The overwhelming majority of social service use is done by the middle classes, Nationalised healthcare and education, all that kind of stuff works very much in the interests of the powerful, rather than the poor who don't have the social capital to properly exploit it.

 

[Shrike]

Why do you think that Islam will be any more resistant to the corrosive, corrupting effects of modern western culture than the various Christian religions?

Nine out of ten, these people are angry because they're poor and face limited prospects, not because they're muslim -that just becomes a convenient rallying point.

And by 2123, the cyborgs will rule the world anyhow.

 

[Hotpoint]

There has been a drive to naturalize them (is that the right word?)

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Almost the right word, it's "naturalise"

Your use of American spelling instead of English was probably a contributing factor to me thinking you were a Yank.

Although I can buy Muslims having local influence in some areas by nature of them being the majority there I just can't buy the argument they're as powerful a force in Germany as you make out if their national influence is such that many still can't even vote. If they had the levels of power you imply they would have surely forced the issue more?

 

[Silence]

Actually, you're completely wrong

In fact, the people who got what they wanted are the middle classes. You still don't see many workers in any kind of positions of power. The means of production are overwhelmingly owned by capitalists and while certain provisions have been made to look after the poor, they're hardly overwhelming (I'd say they're in fact rather inadequate)

The overwhelming majority of social service use is done by the middle classes, Nationalized health care and education, all that kind of stuff works very much in the interests of the powerful, rather than the poor who don't have the social capital to properly exploit it.

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Sure the middle class prospered but so what? The poor did too and have a greater say in how things are run then ever before. The poor in Europe are far better off, and no longer are under threat of rebellion because they're lives are for the most comfortable and they have much more to lose to gain then gain.

They get health care, the right to vote, the right to strike and all sorts of nice things and its not in the interests of the powerful to have a workforce that can force them to cut into the profit motive, or have a voting bloc in the parliamentary elections to vote to raise standards or wages (sort off it gets more complicated when it comes to regulations in which the powerful can eat more of the middle class).

Who gives a fuck about means of production when you got what you wanted, not to mention that those means of production can be shut down completely by them striking which is protected by a legal system.

So in other words unless you think the Marxist loldream worker's paradise is real goal, and that means of production is the base superstructure of the modern European social welfare state with its large government oversight and regulations, you could make that argument, but frankly reality and most workers care about having comfortable lives then any idealogical goals, and many of the battles their forebears have fought have gotten them alot of what they have demanded.

 

[Posbi]

Almost the right word, it's "naturalise"

Your use of American spelling instead of English was probably a contributing factor to me thinking you were a Yank.

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That's what happens if you are naturalised on a primarily American board.

Although I can buy Muslims having local influence in some areas by nature of them being the majority there I just can't buy the argument they're as powerful a force in Germany as you make out if their national influence is such that many still can't even vote. If they had the levels of power you imply they would have surely forced the issue more?

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As peculiar as it may sound having the right to vote seems to not really be of that much importance to them. There's also the trend of those who can become citizens to refuse it because it would mean to end their citizenship of Turkey, of which they are mighty proud. And why would you aspire the right to vote if you have associations who bring forward your demands just as well with you not having the right, making your voice be heard simply by the fact that you are there? There's little German citizenship gives you that you don't already have once you achieve a status that allows you to live here.
And they are forcing the issue as much as they can: step by step. Of course, nobody's calling for shariah to be introduced, or stuff like that. We're still some time away from that.

 

[Senmut]

That's what happens if you are naturalised on a primarily American board.

As peculiar as it may sound having the right to vote seems to not really be of that much importance to them. There's also the trend of those who can become citizens to refuse it because it would mean to end their citizenship of Turkey, of which they are mighty proud. And why would you aspire the right to vote if you have associations who bring forward your demands just as well with you not having the right, making your voice be heard simply by the fact that you are there? There's little German citizenship gives you that you don't already have once you achieve a status that allows you to live here.
And they are forcing the issue as much as they can: step by step. Of course, nobody's calling for shariah to be introduced, or stuff like that. We're still some time away from that.

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Give it time, Pos. Even the most virulent cancers take a while to metastasize fully.

 

[Roi Danton]

That's what happens if you are naturalised on a primarily American board.

As peculiar as it may sound having the right to vote seems to not really be of that much importance to them. There's also the trend of those who can become citizens to refuse it because it would mean to end their citizenship of Turkey, of which they are mighty proud. And why would you aspire the right to vote if you have associations who bring forward your demands just as well with you not having the right, making your voice be heard simply by the fact that you are there? There's little German citizenship gives you that you don't already have once you achieve a status that allows you to live here.
And they are forcing the issue as much as they can: step by step. Of course, nobody's calling for shariah to be introduced, or stuff like that. We're still some time away from that.

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What you are referring to is not the Turkish majority around here, you know. I have had the distinct impression and experience that Turks are getting more like Germans (and Western people in general) the more they have economic success. Poor people are always more likely to support radical movements. Just look at the NPD and 'Die Linke' followers. Most of them are either stupid, delusional or see their 'last' hope in those parties.
And exactly the same happens to our Muslim immigrants. The poor ones, the old ones and the usual percent of nut jobs (the percent you get everywhere) are those radical ones. Maybe a few in the middle and upper classes, but not more. The majority of the immigrants are as harmless as you or me.

 

[Holger Danske]

Yes, I know you think of me as an alarmist nutjob, and I say, okay, maybe I am.

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You talk and walk very much like that my dear. And correct me if Im wrong I most certainly dont think you vote leftwing either. You little Nazi.

If in a couple of decades it turns out you were right and I was wrong, all the better for all of us, and I'll bite myself in the ass because I've wasted so much time contemplating the opposite.

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Id say you got a right to your opinion and that we should definitely watch our society for "foreign" influences. Alarmists nutjubs can be useful sometimes.

But what if you are wrong and I am generally right? What if it doesn't just magically turn out all nice...?

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The problem is that your "if" is very fucking big for most rational people.

 

[white_rabbit]

Right, I've read Caliphate, thought I'd relate some of it, because its really funny.

Spoilers ahead, obviously.

America is hit with half a dozen nuclear warheads, some from Nork sources, some from Pakistan, some old Russian ones. The united Kingdom takes one in London.

Both countries goverments are either decapitated, or severely compromised, millions dead, and more to come.

We are given the perspective of an awesomely stupid character, a german "artist" who regularly protests against American interference in other countries affairs, its warmongering etc etc. Basically a character with little or no redeeming features, whose every thought is achingly stupid. Shes gets hot for a Muslim who throughout the book becomes more and more disillusioned with Islam, eventually converting to Christianity and joining team america.

The convert leaves for america, unknowingly fathering a child on Petra, the grandmother of the Petra who is sold into slavery. The timeline jumps twixt "present day" and the early years of this century.

This Petra joins pre-emptive protests against American retaliation, expecting a massive military onslaught in revenge.

In a rather unlikely twist, the exact opposite happens. A policy of utter appeasement is adopted, and the american goverment bends over and spreads for "Islam" The hunt for Bin Laden is abandoned, american troops withdraw from everywhere, Moslem (note spelling) immigration is permitted on a massive scale , Israel is abandoned, etc etc. Basically the worst nightmare of any America loving patriot.

This then causes a massive backlash, and some bloke starts a shiny new party that basically operates on "getting motherfucking revenge".

This is a massive success, and sweeps the nation, and the two existing parties become minorities.

The "history" is related in segments, taken from the book of the dark times, which are outright stated to be a result of lax political decisions taken "now".

Basically, the new Yankee goverment gives an ultimatum to Islam, and this causes a massive evacuation, which tails off when "they" begin to believe its just a bluff. On september 11, 2019, America nukes 10 Islamic cities for every nuke attack on their soil, erases Mecca and Medina with massive overkill strikes etc.

At some point, Israel is eradicated, and in the modern world of the Caliphate, Jews are remembered only as mythical devils that the Koran warns against.

The EU and Canada sever ties with America in protest, absorbing millions of refugees from the blasted wastelands of the Middle east etc.

America occupies the oil rich regions of the world that have suddenly become vacant, and sucks them dry, leaving once it has become self-sufficient, incidentally nuking the middle east again when they leave.

As things progress, Russia becomes a Tsar ruled dictatorship, the PRC becomes the Celestial Han Kingdom, Japan becomes even more friendly with america, IIRC actually part of the American empire.

The United Kingdom is ruled by what appears to be a massively re-empowered Monarchy, in a similar fashion to America. (the "bloke" becomes President for Life) It is the first country to begin purging its population of Muslims after America starts, bypassing internment camps and moving straight along to physically dumping them on the shores of France by the hundreds of thousands.

American political reforms are aided by executive pardons of those who murder "liberal" judges and politicians, and this is used as a threat by the American premier in a national address.

Japan, Russia, China-Australia (not a typo) all purge their populations, killing, enslaving or ejecting their Muslim citizens. Canada and the EU are exceptions, allowing massive immigration of refugees.

The remnants of the middle east and other related regions become the Caliphate of Islam, Triumphant, and aided by their liberal nuking and occupation, plus massive exodus of population, these regions are basically crap incarnate.

Europe becomes known as the Caliphate of something something, and is a society maintained by a Dhimmis caste known as Narzani or something, since the Muslims think Allah wills everything, so don't do any work, maintain anything or whatever. Young men are recruited into the Jannissaries and indoctrinated, young attractive female children become slaves and so forth. The Dhimmis are forced to live in trash filled hellholes because of the requirement that no muslim be less well off than them. Everyone is "born" a muslim, but some are apostates".

Canada is invaded by america due to its vast swarms of immigrants launching attacks on America, at the third assault, America decides to secure its northern borders and conquers Canada. The United Kingdom doesn't care, because its busy eliminating Muslims and...stuff.

America then cows the Latin American nations, various islands and crap, usually with their nutcase President waving his nuclear balls in lieu of diplomacy. Comrade Chavez gets too big for his boots and America has a new state/protectorate(second class of course)


The actual "story" beyond all this, is that America is about to commence a Reconquista of Europe, and the Caliphate knows it can't stop it.

So it decides to destroy the world with a viral plague! To do so, it recruits.......

CANADIANS!

3 Canadian Doom-Mongers of Science are lured to the Caliphate by their desire to strike back against america, money, and easy access to the bottoms of young boys and underage girls.

Thats right, these french speaking CANADIANS not only hate america and are willing to destroy the world, but they are also disgusting,fat, ugly paedophile deviants...who like anal sex.

They intend to perform their evil CANADIAN ritual of Science in a converted castle near the border of the Neutral land of Swiss People. The castle is also used house people who provide Sex for priviliged members of society, including the Jannissaries.

Brave american hero infiltrates, motivated to do so when his Hot Blonde Lover dies by calling down a FAE strike on herself while Americans were clearing the Phillipines for Christian resettlement. She was about to be raped, but the strike hit first.

He infiltrates, along with Token black guy. Meets up with a Celestial Kingdom Operative, a genetically engineered Hot Asian Chick Lesbian who regularly has sex with Petra, who is now a seventeen year old Hot Nordic Aryan Fucktoy, she wears a crucifix because Muslims like to fuck christian women.

Petras bro turns up, and he's a secret Christian, he fucks Asian Lesbian chick true love blah blah, secret plot, airship, HERO.

BOOOM fire!!

Heroes escape, but Hans, Secret Christian has to stay behind, He screams DEUS VULT when he charges into combat!

Hot Nordic sex in Neutral land, Hot Lesbian chick hooks up with Hot swiss fighter pilot. etc etc.

I'm not sure whether "BLAME CANADA" or " AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!" is most appropriate.

 

[Shrike]

What the fuck

I loled by the end though. It's just so surreal.

 

[Chuut-Riit]

OH TOM KRATMANN NO

Right now, this planet's inhabitants really hack me off. I want my revenge upon you all for this.

 

[Lord Squishy]

He infiltrates, along with Token black guy. Meets up with a Celestial Kingdom Operative, a genetically engineered Hot Asian Chick Lesbian who regularly has sex with Petra, who is now a seventeen year old Hot Nordic Aryan Fucktoy, she wears a crucifix because Muslims like to fuck christian women.

Petras bro turns up, and he's a secret Christian, he fucks Asian Lesbian chick true love blah blah, secret plot, airship, HERO.

BOOOM fire!!

Heroes escape, but Hans, Secret Christian has to stay behind, He screams DEUS VULT when he charges into combat!

Hot Nordic sex in Neutral land, Hot Lesbian chick hooks up with Hot swiss fighter pilot. etc etc.

I'm not sure whether "BLAME CANADA" or " AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!" is most appropriate.

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I think I'd probably only read the bit that I quoted above. Everything else seems totally lacking in qualities to redeem for the stupidity.

 

[Shrike]

I think I'd probably only read the bit that I quoted above. Everything else seems totally lacking in qualities to redeem for the stupidity.

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That seems like the best part of the book and what made me go from to

 

[FBH]

Sure the middle class prospered but so what? The poor did too and have a greater say in how things are run then ever before. The poor in Europe are far better off, and no longer are under threat of rebellion because they're lives are for the most comfortable and they have much more to lose to gain then gain.

They get health care, the right to vote, the right to strike and all sorts of nice things and its not in the interests of the powerful to have a workforce that can force them to cut into the profit motive, or have a voting bloc in the parliamentary elections to vote to raise standards or wages (sort off it gets more complicated when it comes to regulations in which the powerful can eat more of the middle class).

Who gives a fuck about means of production when you got what you wanted, not to mention that those means of production can be shut down completely by them striking which is protected by a legal system.

So in other words unless you think the Marxist loldream worker's paradise is real goal, and that means of production is the base superstructure of the modern European social welfare state with its large government oversight and regulations, you could make that argument, but frankly reality and most workers care about having comfortable lives then any idealogical goals, and many of the battles their forebears have fought have gotten them alot of what they have demanded.

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Sure. Ok, I'll accept the workers are a lot better off now than they were a century + ago. Is this really a bad thing though?

I'm sure we'll eventually have to meet the more reasonable demands of the Islamic community (just like we me the more reasonable demands of the working classes, the irish, the africans, the west indians and so on) they'll be some level of violence in meeting those demands (there always is) but it's very unlikely to change the balance of power in society unless there's some kind of major economic shift.

 

[Memphet'ran]

Holy moley! I feel compelled to do a little mini commentary right here.

We are given the perspective of an awesomely stupid character, a german "artist" who regularly protests against American interference in other countries affairs, its warmongering etc etc. Basically a character with little or no redeeming features, whose every thought is achingly stupid.

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Sounds like a pretty typical right wing Imaginary Liberal.

The convert leaves for america, unknowingly fathering a child on Petra, the grandmother of the Petra who is sold into slavery. The timeline jumps twixt "present day" and the early years of this century.

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Now I'm no expert on past Islamic states but I'm getting the impression that Kratman has some rather ... interesting ... ideas on what the jizya constitutes. In most of the Caliphates as far as I can tell it was just a monetary tax. The only precedent for the jizya involving selling people into slavery that I'm aware of is the Ottoman Janissaries (which strikes me as a system that would be massively uneconomical for a Muslim-occupied Europe with modern tech*). I certainly don't remember anything about young girls being sold as part of jizya, I get the feeling the author is probably making it up. I might be wrong though.

*Edit: let me expand on this a bit. A Janissary system would mean removing children from Christian households, raising them on the government tab, putting them through military service, and then once they're too old to be used as soldiers giving them decades-long retirement plans, again on the government tab. This is massively uneconomical compared to just drafting or recruiting able-bodied young men like every other damn country in the world does.

In a rather unlikely twist, the exact opposite happens. A policy of utter appeasement is adopted, and the american goverment bends over and spreads for "Islam" The hunt for Bin Laden is abandoned, american troops withdraw from everywhere, Moslem (note spelling) immigration is permitted on a massive scale , Israel is abandoned, etc etc. Basically the worst nightmare of any America loving patriot.

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LOL wut? It's just like Freehold! Behold the Imaginary Liberal: totally divorced from all human self-preservation instincts and stumbling all over himself to kiss the toes of the first person who spanks him.

Basically, the new Yankee goverment gives an ultimatum to Islam, and this causes a massive evacuation, which tails off when "they" begin to believe its just a bluff. On september 11, 2019, America nukes 10 Islamic cities for every nuke attack on their soil, erases Mecca and Medina with massive overkill strikes etc.

At some point, Israel is eradicated, and in the modern world of the Caliphate, Jews are remembered only as mythical devils that the Koran warns against.

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So the US declares nuclear was on the Islamic world (which is mysteriously acting as a unified bloc through the power of Alien Space Bats), and then after delivering a token civilian massacre does absolutely nothing and throws one of its biggest allies in the region to the wolves. WTF?

America occupies the oil rich regions of the world that have suddenly become vacant, and sucks them dry, leaving once it has become self-sufficient, incidentally nuking the middle east again when they leave.

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Wait, let me get this straight. Our plan is to nuke the Middle East, occupy it for decades, and then leave when the oil is gone? This sounds like a stunning example of both questionable strategy and the Goodkind Effect (where the supposed heroes come off as monumentally evil).

As things progress, Russia becomes a Tsar ruled dictatorship, the PRC becomes the Celestial Han Kingdom, Japan becomes even more friendly with america, IIRC actually part of the American empire.

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LOL wut? I'm bowled over by both the incredible imagination and profound understanding of the politics of these countries this suggests the author has.

American political reforms are aided by executive pardons of those who murder "liberal" judges and politicians, and this is used as a threat by the American premier in a national address.

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What the ... ? Chalk up another example of the Goodkind Effect in action.

Japan, Russia, China-Australia (not a typo) all purge their populations, killing, enslaving or ejecting their Muslim citizens.

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The Goodkind Effect is strong in this one.

The remnants of the middle east and other related regions become the Caliphate of Islam, Triumphant, and aided by their liberal nuking and occupation, plus massive exodus of population, these regions are basically crap incarnate.

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So let me get this straight. The US nukes the Islamic world, occupies it for decades, then instead of trying to reform or administer it they just leave and permit this Caliphate to form?

Young men are recruited into the Jannissaries and indoctrinated, young attractive female children become slaves and so forth.

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See above comments on how the jizya worked.

The actual "story" beyond all this, is that America is about to commence a Reconquista of Europe, and the Caliphate knows it can't stop it.

So it decides to destroy the world with a viral plague! To do so, it recruits.......

CANADIANS!

3 Canadian Doom-Mongers of Science are lured to the Caliphate by their desire to strike back against america, money, and easy access to the bottoms of young boys and underage girls.

Thats right, these french speaking CANADIANS not only hate america and are willing to destroy the world, but they are also disgusting,fat, ugly paedophile deviants...who like anal sex.

Click to shrink...

I don't think I can even say anything that isn't blatantly obvious just from reading that.

 

[Silence]

Sure. Ok, I'll accept the workers are a lot better off now than they were a century + ago. Is this really a bad thing though?

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Overall no not really, I mean there is areas where one can have quibbles about regarding economic efficiency and the risks of over regulation which helps the entrenched and such.

I'm just saying that they as a voter/population/class bloc have due to their numbers and influence are able to exact demands and change on the over all European system.

I'm sure we'll eventually have to meet the more reasonable demands of the Islamic community (just like we me the more reasonable demands of the working classes, the irish, the africans, the west indians and so on) they'll be some level of violence in meeting those demands (there always is) but it's very unlikely to change the balance of power in society unless there's some kind of major economic shift.

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There is too many factors in play to make accurate predictions really, but one thing I will say, having large unemployed/poor/underrepresented globs of people sitting around is a recipe for trouble, but I doubt its going to be any of this alarmist claptrap about a Caliphate taking over, I mean Western Civilization is if anything the invasive and hard to repel social entity on the face of the Earth.

 

[Posbi]

You talk and walk very much like that my dear. And correct me if Im wrong I most certainly dont think you vote leftwing either. You little Nazi.

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Oi, you foul Viking scum!

The problem is that your "if" is very fucking big for most rational people.

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That depends wholly on your idea of what constitutes rational, because in my view your side's idea of that is sticking your fingers into your ears, singing lalala it will all work out no matter what data to the contrary there is. But in my experience, things don't usually just work out. Problems fester and become more severe, they don't simply vanish. Quite frankly, I am content with laying out my points, the last thing I'd try is try to convince anyone of them. Because we both know it doesn't work (for either of us in either direction ).

I can point to longtime demographic trends all over Europe that already constitute a problem in some countries and in some areas. I can point to significant trends of radicalization among muslim minorites that start even before 9/11. I can point to them being responsible for a percentage of crime far exceeding their percentage of the population. I can point to them segregating themselves into ghettos, being dependant in the dole and largely uneducated - even though there are no institutional barreers holding them back! I can point to an increasing amount of demands towards the majority society to cater towards them - which are mostly met with silent aquiescence.

So I can rattle down a list of facts, and all I get for it is a snorted, "Well, that's just your nutjobbery opinion" without really disproving any of those facts. I point to these developments, but all I get as counterpoints basically narrow down to "you generalize" (gee, yeah, that's what you do when groups that large are concerned), "it'll work out in a generation or two" (because it didn't work when they constituted only 1%, 3%, 5% of the population, it surely will work as the numbers and the radicalization grow ) or "you're a nutjob alarmist" (thanks, I don't care, and coming from half of you I take it as a compliment). Next thing I know you'll probably accuse me of looking forward to some kind of genocide (despite me having already adressed the unlikelyhood of one).

Yeah, but you are the rational people. This has been most amusing.

 

[Athene]

What is it with Baen and crazy Right-Wingers?

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I'm guessing its because they either wrote a successful book series before or were taken under the wing of a successful book series author.

Besides, Flint is a capital "S" Socialist and Drake is just fucking awesome.

 

[FBH]

Right, I've read Caliphate, thought I'd relate some of it, because its really funny.

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The fuck.

I wish they'd publish more books like this. For one they're excellent snark bate, and for another they're going to be as good as any similar length rational argument someone like me could put out oposing their position.

 

[white_rabbit]

I forgot to address the situation in Africa.

No, don't click the X, this is awesome.

Africa is back under white rule, the MOSLEMS have been more or less eradicated, except for where they have been pacified.....

By Zulu's

With Assegai.

Ze Boers are back in control, and made a deal with the Zulu nation, offering them a chunk of land to found THE ZULU NATION OF ZULU WARRIORS WITH SPEARS in exchange for ruthlessly harrowing the Moslems of Africa.

Africa is now run efficiently, and Slavery has been reinstituted (Russia uses its Moslem minority for brute, slave labour on agricultural projects) Africa apparently does some slave trading etc.

The Moslems are so feared of the Dreaded Zulu, that they are completely pacified.

Young children and adults who dissent in the American Empire (its actual name_) are reeducated to conform to proper christian values.

Now I'm no expert on past Islamic states but I'm getting the impression that Kratman has some rather ... interesting ... ideas on what the jizya constitutes

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Basically, it operates as described, except that the dreaded Moslems hunger so for young christian flesh, that any attractive female is a reason for the Tax to rise, and she is auctioned off to pay the tax.

The Jannissary corp is used because Moslem young men literally cannot be trained to fight, because they are indoctrinated with the concept that "allah prevails" so will not learn to shoot properly or maintain their weaponry. But Christian men are born into a different ethos.

By the by, the European clergy helps maintain the status quo, with the Moslem Overlords allowing strict religious enforcement of Christian religious law within certain limits, allowing the European clergy to maintain a degree of power.

Except for one priest, who gets crucified by Soon to Be Secret Christian Hans and his buddies, but preaches from the cross, finally gnawing free his crucifix and giving it to Hans before expiring.