Game Theory III - Hawk and Dove

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by Aleph, May 1, 2012.

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  1. Deamon

    Deamon Semi-intelligent agent

    For a normal nine-year-old maybe. But this is the girl who, when facing the people who had attacked her out of the blue, nearly killed her, her girlfriend, and several of her friends, then drained her dry, pleaded for them to stop fighting, talk to her and explain their reasons. And kept asking, even after having fought several pitched battles with them. And yet here, when Chrono outright says, very clearly, that he wants them stop fighting and explain the situation, her personality does a complete 180. She doesn't even consider it, just hightails it out of there once Fate is in the clear. Not exactly conductive to any presumptions of innocence. Then at home she refuses for hours to listen to Yuuno's pleas they contact the TSAB to straighten things out, also horribly out of character. The real Nanoha would jump at the chance to avoid more people getting hurt, instead she just blithers on about spikes. There's no reason for her to be this different this soon, to go into "they bad, ignore bad people"-mode over one incident.

    Indeed, that unexplained character derailment of one of my favorite characters in anime is the one thing that pisses me off about this (excellent) story(*). What's worse, it's the same sort of stupidity Presea is so gloriously averting. Presea let her dislike of Fate get in the way of her judgement, jeopardizing her goal. Nanoha has a serious case of Chronic Hero Syndrome, her drive is to save, to protect, to keep people from harm. But her failure to look past an initial bad impression - which was partially her own fault - has led her to become an accessory to what could become the greatest mass murder in history. Both Canon!Presea and Game!Nanoha let their emotions get the better of them, to the detriment of their goals. It's like Presea's levels in Dumbass got transferred to Nanoha. Or maybe the entire Takamachi family, given how Kyouya and Momoko handled Chrono's visit.

    I see that sentiment a lot in this thread, and it just doesn't make sense to me. Presea may be less stupid in this continuity, but her plan is still the same batshit crazy scheme it was in canon: use artifacts of ultimate power to drill a way to a mythical lost world where they can cure Alicia. It was never whether or not she could reach Alhazred that was the problem, but the fact that the act of drilling there would disrupt dozens of dimensions, killing Sod knows how many people. I don't see how having more power would somehow equate into less collateral damage.

    Incidentally, even if Alhazred somehow still exists, and even if she somehow makes it there intact, and even if it's still inhabited, there's still the problem that the place sank into Imaginary Space. Where magic, you know, doesn't work. So even if everything goes according to plan, she still won't be getting Alicia back

    (*): To those of you itching to tell me to stop reading, then: I wouldn't be getting this worked up about it if this wasn't an outstanding, extremely well written and gripping piece of literature. The worldbuilding is incredible, expanding so much on the universe and yet somehow staying consistent with canon. It actually feels like looking into another universe. I very much enjoy reading it, and after a chapter it stays in my thoughts for days. I very much look forward to every chapter, and I want to sincerely thank Aleph and ES for bringing us this masterpiece.

    It's just that this particular way of driving the plot forward come across to me as if the character just dropped about two standard deviations' worth of IQ points. She's wrong, and she has the information to know this (or at least that there's more to this) - she's just ignoring it. And because of the high level of emotional investment I have with the story, that pisses me off. At the character, not the author.
    Winged One likes this.
  2. Thy-Robocop

    Thy-Robocop Fairy Chess Player

    You're forgetting the major difference between Game Theory and Canon!Nanoha: In canon!Nanoha, Nanoha does exactly as you say because she doesn't know why the enemy is doing what she is doing. The reason why she wants to stop fighting and talk to people is that she wants to know why they are doing it, something that her "enemies" in canon never offer.

    Here in Game Theory, Nanoha knows what's going on. She's been given hints about Fate's intentions before she joins her, and Precia has filled her in the whole plan now. And the TSAB's intentions are not exactly mysterious, so to say. Indeed, due to Chrono's first two encounters, they come off as pretty hostile. Well, perhaps not the first: there may have been some chance for Nanoha to join the TSAB side if Yuuno and Chrono pulled off a gentler approach. But Fate coming to see and finally explain everything to Nanoha, and Chrono attacking because of Fate's appearance (and poor intel on his part), pretty much sealed the deal. There's no need for Nanoha to stop fighting to hear their explanations, they're pretty clear to her. Now, if she gets hint that there something else going on (like, if her mum and dad get in touch with her and explain what the TSAB have been telling them), then she might revert to that personality, but for now, she knows what's going on, and she's reacting accordingly.

    The spikes bit I see as some childish justification for the deeper issues that are going on.
    Faraway-R and TheLastOne like this.
  3. Angelform

    Angelform The Cavalry

    Something that came up in one of the other stories on SB that will eventually become relevant: What is the Saint Church?
    What do they believe? How are they organised? How widespread and pervasive is their influence? Are they known for charity or righteousness? Do they have nice hats as part of their rank insignia?

    In most fics they are generally ignored and just handwaved as Space!Christianity, I am hopeful Aleph will have something better.
  4. Gosu

    Gosu Read this very carefully, I wrote it only once

    Fate actually stopped fighting against her, fought with her, sat down, talked to her and explained her reasons. And being who she is and how old she is, Nanoha started helping Fate.

    And then she saw helpless unconscious Alicia, and Yuuno and Dark Lord Chrono certainly seem to be less on the side of truth than her new friend, so Nanoha now is on the side of Fate and Alicia. Which is not the side of the TSAB.
  5. Deamon

    Deamon Semi-intelligent agent

    Sure, she thinks she knows what the deal is now. But that wasn't the case during the first encounter, and she still reacted the same way. And she was just as in the dark during the hours before Fate showed up at her house, but she still refused to listen to Yuuno. You know, her friend. A person she had every reason to trust. Nope, didn't wanna hear it.

    And now it's too late. By handing over those Jewel Seeds she's armed a bomb that could blow up the world. Once she gets taken out of the fight (one way or another) Lindy would have to be completely off her rocker to trust her with anything, no matter how sorry she is. Nor does she need her, because Zest's team has her completely outclassed in every respect.

    Agreed. Emphasis on childish.
  6. Noctum

    Noctum Dual Paradox

    Yes, because she's nine years old. Normally, I accept the fact that child/teen heros are mature for their age to make for a better story. But in this case I like the fact that Nanoha is acting childish on this issue. Children are stubborn and irrational. Nanoha's opinion about Chrono's apperance makes sense if you think about the fact that she was raised in what is likely a very law-abiding family. She's raised with a very specific idea about how police look and act, and Chrono didn't fit that worldview. All of her 'knowledge' about magic before meeting Yuuno is based on stories and tv shows, like magical girl shows. In which the heroine reaches out and helps her rival overcome her issues.

    Add to the fact that Yuuno didn't mention the TSAB before Chrono showed up, and you can see why she didn't listen to Chrono when he showed up. And as for ignoring Yuuno afterwards, it was a mixture of adult like "oh, now you tell me about this" and childish "I though you were my friend!". And now all the stress about the situation finally adds up, and Nanoha stops thinking with her head, and starts thinking with her heart.

    It's easy to forget how old she is given how she acts in canon, so I can see why you called OOC.
    Winged One likes this.
  7. Thy-Robocop

    Thy-Robocop Fairy Chess Player

    I've gone back through chapter 4 (whoa! Can't believe that happened so early in the story...relatively speaking), and...well, at a quick glance, I see that the issue is much more complicated, but I think I understand the sequence of events, and I can reasonably say that:

    a) When Chrono arrived at the first incident, Nanoha was on friendly terms with Fate, almost a proper friend, as it were. Also, Fate was injured. Knowing that she would be outclassed by Chrono in a direct fight against him, Fate decided to flee, which prompted Chrono to attack. And Nanoha, seeing an injured "friend" being attacked, a friend who's so close to becoming BFFs, decided on the spot to help her "friend" instead of giving herself up to the complete stranger who has scared her.

    b) Yuuno and Nanoha talk about the situation, and from what I understand, Yuuno does actually convince Nanoha to contact the TSAB, and talk with a "responsible adult". She decided to do it the day after as it's late at night, she's tired out from the battle, and probably still has some reservations against Chrono, plus some building resentment against Yuuno, due to the fact that he forbid her from telling everything to her friends. Add to that the "They would deny her a sister" line that Arf dropped on her moments before.

    c) Fate comes to Nanoha's house, promising to explain everything, and also saying that she's free to come back after she knows what's going on. Had Chrono not attacked at that point, Nanoha would have followed Fate, have the situation explained, come back, discussed it with Yuuno, and (maybe) contact the TSAB and tell her everything she knows.

    d) Finally, Chrono messes things up by attacking Nanoha and Fate at Nanoha's house, just when Fate has given her the choice to have everything explained to her. The situation gives her a choice: either go with Fate and find out her truth, or surrender to a complete stranger who's attacked her at home, and do the "right thing". Unfortunately, the "right thing" for Nanoha is knowing one's true reasons, and then tell them to the other parties involved to achieve a peaceful resolution. And for her, one path is going to enlighten her, while the other is probably going to cut her out from the truth forever. Given that choice, it's pretty obvious that her gut instinct would tell her to go with Fate, and that's perfectly in character for her. She may have been under the impression that she may still be able to come back and explain stuff (kind of hard to think ahead during a battle), but only later does it sink in that there's no turning back.

    So yeah, if things went differently, she would have actually listened to Yuuno and contacted the TSAB. It's just Fate and Chrono decided to be at the wrong place at the wrong time before she could do so.
  8. Alratan

    Alratan Terran Eclipsed

    It's also important that to Nanoha, Chrono isn't a policeman. He's simply a random foreigner (which is a big deal in Japan), who is claiming authority he clearly can't have. Japanese constructions of sovereignty are, to this day, pretty touchy, and it's probably actually pretty offensive to infringe on them like he did. Nanoha wouldn't intellectually understand any of that, but the cultural context would have been passed on.
  9. Noctum

    Noctum Dual Paradox

    True, I'd forgotten about that part.
  10. spacemonkey37

    spacemonkey37 Solidarity

    Yes. This. Nanoha might be mature for her age, but she is still a child. She isn't going to think everything through logically. She does have considerable respect for authority- but because Chrono isn't an adult, she didn't recognize him as an authority. And when he attacked Fate, Nanoha's natural inclination was to defend her. She was already beginning to see Fate as a friend, and Nanoha, first and foremost, protects her friends. That can be seen quite clearly in canon when Nanoha disobeyed orders to assist Fate when she was being overwhelmed by Jewel Seeds. This is exactly the same thing, but on a much larger scale. It's completely in character.

    Also, the important thing to remember about Nanoha is that she's really, really stubborn. Now that she's heard Precia's story, she's not going to give up on trying to save Alicia.
  11. Dreitus

    Dreitus Oh, Canada!

    You mention the Wolkenritter but even in A's Nanoha kept trying to take them down while they continued to harvest energy. Chrono appeared from nowhere, told them to surrender, and immediately started shooting when Fate turned to run. Nanoha knew absolutely nothing about the TSAB at that point since (at least on-screen) Yunno never brought it up. Chrono looks like he's trying to kidnap Nanoha in that light. Yunno cleared that up and convinced Nanoha to turn herself in to the TSAB the next day. Nanoha was perfectly willing to give them the benifit of the doubt at that point. It just happened that he chose that moment to shoot at her and her family with enough force to tear through the brick walls of the house. That doesn't look non-lethal from an outside perspective. it was only after he fired a set of those without warning that he told them to stop fighting. Even in this chapter, Quint only told Nanoha to surrender after dislocating her arm. Her reaction to the spikes on Chrono's jacket was just a first reaction when she had no idea who he was or what he represents. His ruthlessness was what colored her impression of him after their fights. Chrono hasn't gone out of his way to change her impression of him either. All of the TSAB's diplomatic efforts have been focused on her family rather than Nanoha herself.
    I'm assuming this line is Nanoha thinking that she has enough on her hands to deal with rather than obsessing over Chrono's spikes.

    At the current point she seems like she would be willing to listen to the TSAB if they would stand down. Keep in mind that 90% of the information that Nanoha has about the TSAB comes from Precia and that she's been lying or spinning the truth at every opportunity. Nanoha isn't stupid, just absurdly ignorant. She certainly hasn't seen any of the experiments Precia is conducting with the jewel seeds or evidence of her illness.

    I was about to say more or less the same thing. I don't see how Precia thinks her plan has any chance of success. She wants to rip a hole through dimensions to Alhazred in order to get access to their magic to heal Alicia but how does she expect to get their cooperation? Not to mention that dimensional disturbances seem to do horrible damage to people with magic. Precia knows that Alhazredian magic relies on brute force so considering the kind of raw power they must have had to achieve what they did; wouldn't she expect something like this to be that much worse for them? I can't see Alhazred's leaders thanking her for causing an event that kills off their leaders. Even that is assuming that they are still alive in the first place and that she finds them. All of that's not even considering the kind of damage that could do to dimensional space.
  12. Aleph

    Aleph Solidarity

    Right. The most important point here is the last one.

    1) Amongst my other minor alterations and tweaks to the canon setting, such as the heightened lethality and doing away with turn-based combat, I have downgraded Nanoha's maturity a touch, to make her a slightly more realistic nine-year old. A mature nine-year old, but still a nine-year old.

    2) Yuuno did get her to agree to talk to the TSAB. That is, indeed, half the reason Fate panicked and showed up on her doorstep - she knew once the Bureau got involved that she needed to get to Nanoha before they did if she was to have any chance of not being totally outmatched. Then Chrono showed up, operating on a valid assumption that happened to be wrong due to stuff he couldn't have known about, and accidentally pushed her into going with Fate.

    3) The lethality of the Gamesverse setting is markedly higher than that of canon. Even with telepathy, which is much faster than speech, trying to talk to your opponent in the middle of a fight is liable to get you shot. Nanoha has, indeed, found this out the hard way, starting with Round One against Fate and then moving on through several Jewel Seeds teaching her, harshly, that talking things over is That Thing You Do When People Aren't Trying To Shoot You.

    4) She has been, for a relatively large part of the time the TSAB has been involved, aware of their reasons and her reasons. Precia thinks she can revive Alicia. The TSAB think she can't. Nanoha understands the TSAB's position, it's just that right now she doesn't agree with it. She doesn't know whether reaching Alhazred is impossible, and the TSAB don't even know that's what Precia is aiming for to argue against it.

    And now the most important points.

    5) You're right.

    You're right. The above reasons give some leeway as to why she'd hesitate a bit more, why she wouldn't do it the same way, why she would be a lot more guarded in trying to talk things through. But you're right, given her character at the current point in time, she should still be trying. I'd forgotten that aspect, or at least passed over it, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. While I'm not going to rewrite the story so far, as I think that the above points and those mentioned by others are a decent justification for why she hasn't tried to talk yet, I have made several important alterations to the plan for the next chapter in order to address this issue. I hope the result will be satisfying.

    Despite the quality of it, I think it's important to remember that this is my first major project. I have literally never done anything of this size, scale and magnitude before - Game Theory is already three times longer than the longest thing I'd ever written prior to starting it (Trials), and five times longer than my biggest work before that. I am still very much learning the ropes here, and I'm going to make some mistakes that I'm going to need pointed out to me. The scope of the worldbuilding, the planning, the foreshadowing and the characterisation is huge, and I readily and unashamedly acknowledge that the lattermost is still by far my weakest point. You have my gratitude for bringing up this glitch in Nanoha's presentation before it got any worse, and so do those who added perspective and context to the point from both sides of the argument.

    With any luck, the next chapter (currently being constructed) will rectify the fault.
  13. spacemonkey37

    spacemonkey37 Solidarity

    Well, it's possible that Precia knows something about Alhazred that Aleph hasn't chosen to share with us yet. On the other hand, she is trying to bring back the dead. That's not really the goal of an entirely rational person. She might be saner here than in canon, but she still lost a few marbles after Alicia died. Or, it's possible that she knows what she's attempting is most likely doomed to failure, but she's going to try anyway, because it's the only thing that even might work.
  14. spacemonkey37

    spacemonkey37 Solidarity

    Yeah, I've wondered about this too. And it brings up an even more interesting question; what kind of religions are there in greater dimensional space, both past and present? Also, how does the presence of magic and things like alternate dimensions fit into their doctrines?
    Keter 682 likes this.
  15. Bki


    Or maybe, you know, it was really an accident? This may be rare, but such thing happen sometimes. It doesn't really matter if it is unlikely, because the story wouldn't happen if there wasn't this accident.

    Edit : supporting a religion worldbuilding snip.
  16. Keter 682

    Keter 682 Grumpy mutant hamster

    I concur with the religion worldbuilding snip, from the times of Al Hazerd to the actual TSAB administered dimensional space, and the relationship trough the times between religion and secular power.
  17. While know the religion would be interesting, unless we see the Church early is it needed now ?

    Also I notice the assumption is that Precia's spell, if successful, would cause multiple dimension to implode, causing mass murder. I do not understand the source of this assumption. I believe in canon the concern was that there was no way Precia could succeed, and that failure would have dismal consequences (i.e. succeed and you have a portal to Al Hazred, fail and the energies that would have formed the portal instead rip the heck out of the Dimensional Sea).
    As to why more Jewel Seeds are better, well given the assumption above, more power increases the odds of doing it right. Trying on a shoestring power budget just leaves no room for error, i.e. greater chance of Kaboom. Of course, if the target of the portal does not exist, either (A) a portal to a random location forms, or (B) Big Kaboom.
  18. Dreitus

    Dreitus Oh, Canada!

    It didn't seem like Precia's spell would destroy dimensions but I was under the impression that she would use a dimensional quake like what happened when the hospital jewel seed activated to form the portal. The quake affected the entire planet, damaged/interfered with people's linker cores and caused the most harm to people with stronger magic like Nanoha and her mother. Alhazred mages were absurdly powerful; ergo WTF Precia in the best case. It's odd in a story as coherent as this one.

    The analogy is slightly broken and relies on a few assumptions but it seems like Precia's trying to find oil by blowing up the ground and hoping nothing goes wrong. Also, it's not clear that she can hit the ground in the first place (and there goes the analogy).

    Or I could be wrong...Aleph?
  19. Aleph

    Aleph Solidarity

    The hospital quake was a Jewel Seed activating uncontrolled, via a traumatic burst activation, with no limiters, guidance or constraints.

    It is probable that Precia is not going to use them in quite that way. Quite apart from anything else, dimensional quakes have a habit of bringing the TSAB to the scene, and she would actually quite like to come back. Her ideal plan was to get all of the Jewel Seeds without the TSAB ever knowing she was there, cast the spell without them noticing and then retire to a little Unadministered World and live out her remaining years with Alicia.

    The main problem that happened to this plan was Nanoha, and then the TSAB showing up. Until the latter, Precia seemed fairly confident she could pull it off. Whether or not she can do it is up for debate, but she certainly thinks she can do it without making herself TSAB Public Enemy Number One.

    And religion is forthcoming. As is a Google Doc of the Nanohaverse Fanon Project, which is ES and I compiling a big list of all the worldbuilding we've done for Game Theory, laid out neatly such that it will fit the canon series. Anybody who wants to draw from the expanded setting detailed therein is encouraged to do so, once it's up and running.
  20. EarthScorpion

    EarthScorpion Fell on His Sword

    On the Saint Church (the Holy Church of the Sankt-Kaisers)

    To understand the Saint Church, one must go back, as in many things, to Alhazred. Or, rather, to the Fall of Alhazred, and the few surviving Priest-Kings who endured through the First Dark Age, the remnants of a lost empire. They were still mighty, still dangerous, and they worked to retain their power. But on the world of Belka, the local Priest-King worked on holding power by seeking to control the neo-barbarians, using them as tools to suppress others.

    As it so happened, those neo-barbarians rose up, murdered him and his guards, and their leader took his crown from his decapitated head. She crowned herself the Saint-King, as a deliberate spite to the Alhazredian way of doing things; the title was an intentional proclamation of her superiority over the old way, for she was no priest of the long-forgotten pantheons of Alhazred; she was a saint, a chosen holy warrior.

    Over the years, though, this doctrine shifted. Sankt-Kaisers sanctified their predecessors, even as they enhanced their own bodies, and the old gods of Alhazred faded away, as revisionist historians alleged that they were priest-kings who had elevated themselves to god-hood (not helped by the discovery of several tombs on conquered worlds of priest-kings who had done exactly that). In place rose the Saint's Faith, which is best described as a mix of ancestor cult, hero cult, and state religion, with edges of animism.

    To summarise, the universe itself is alive. Each dimension is another cell in its vast body, budding and splitting through a mitosis that shattered worlds. And life is made in the image of the universe, lesser copies of it, meaning in its own sense, each living thing, no matter how small, is its own existence. But compared to the immensity of the universe, that which the Saint's Faith called "Vollständigkeit", all things were flawed and imperfect. This being, Vollständigkeit, who might best be described as "everything that can be", was commonly depicted in art as a hermaphroditic being, a halo of galaxies floating behind hir, with a sword of rainbow-coloured light in one hand, and a pair of iron scales in the other. Despite that, sie was smiling, for even though sie would judge one's worth upon death and whether one had bettered oneself, sie was kind, for Vollständigkeit sought perfection in all things. Those petty reflections of its majesty that were more perfect than before, that improved and refined themselves and itself, were taken into the majesty of Vollständigkeit, ascending to be born into the fabric of new dimensions when the All-Thing budded again. That was the fate of all men in the end, though those too imperfect would be reborn as men again, to refine themselves. Translated from the Ancient Belkan texts found in the ruined palace of Totgeschwiegen Brise;

    "Within one world we are born as stardust, and though worth and improvement, we join Vollständigkeit to be born again as stars."

    Moreover, towards the end of Ancient Belka, a new thread to the religion evolved. There were those among the Sankt-Kaisers who delayed their own dimension-birth to remain lesser-but-separate to Vollständigkeit. These beings, the Streben-Kaisers, composed a pantheon of intercessory beings, to whom requests of Vollständigkeit might be directed. Although they had been Sankt-Kaisers in life, they took on the nature of Vollständigkeit, and so artwork dating from that era displays each one of the Streben-Kaisers as possessing a thematic tone which covers everything about them. An example would be of Elisabet II, who was declared to be Streben-Kaiser of Victory, and so was depicted scarlet-clad, her eyes as stars, wielding a matched pair of blades made of ivory. Individuals would pray to her for intercession with Vollständigkeit before a battle.

    Post-fall of Belka, in the chaos of the Warring States era, the Saint's Faith began to socially shift, becoming more secular in nature. Although the exemplar-based nature of the sect, and the drive for self-improvement in matters ethical, social, and magical remained, it began to take on greater social roles. Among the various post-Belkan groups who warred, it was something of a neutral party, and that state of affairs lasted right until various religious leaders aligned themselves with powers. The role of the Streben-Kaisers in the religion grew, although an edge of nostalgia entered the doctrines, with fewer self-proclaimed Kaisers being viewed as worthy of recognition as one (once they were safely dead). As a result, a lesser class of intercessory being, who served one of the true Streben-Kasiers started to emerge, the Strebens, who partook of a lesser part of the authority delegated to the Streben-Kasiers by Vollständigkeit (who by now was becoming in the eyes of the faith too high to profane with base supplication), and with further development, it was not merely the mightiest who might delay their incarnation. The Saint's Faith grew in power, and began to become a player in the wars of the Warring States, making and breaking petty Kaisers with its support, and holding worlds in its own right.

    This came to a head in around 1720 CE (UA97-calendar), when the lineage of the Sankt-Kaisers moved to bring the Saint's Faith to heel. They did so with extreme prejudice, the Saint's Cradle moving in to eliminate major holdings. The Sankt-Kaiser essentially subjugated the Saint's Faith's hierarchy, declaring himself, as Sankt-Kaiser of the line of Belka, master of the Cradle, to be the rightful head of the Faith. This led to a period of fundamentalism in it, with the ranks of the Strebens and the Streben-Kasiers purged, leaving only the oldest Ancient Belkan ones among their ranks. On the other hand, the influence of this would also be felt on the Sankt-Kaisers, for the daughter of that Sankt-Kasier had been religious, and was horrified by her father's actions. This led to a split in the Sankt-Kaiser line, as she moved against him, and it ended in her death, and the escape of her son to form a line-in-exile; a grave threat because that too could have authorisation over the Cradle. The chaos of those conflicts weakened the Sankt-Kaiser line further, and in its place, the newly "bought to heel" Saint's Faith (now the Saint Church) began to take on a role as a hybrid religion/civil service, working directly under the Sankt-Kaiser's authority to liaise between worlds.

    The actions of Sankt-Kaiser Olivie are mentioned elsewhere, and need not be covered here. Their impact on the Saint Church was extreme, though. Their leader had bought an end to the line of the Saint-Kings, and had lost the Cradle intentionally. Within 30 years of her death (1866 BCE UA97-Calendar), she had been declared to be the "first true Streben-Kaiser since Ancient Belka", the Mercy of Vollständigkeit. And in the meantime, the Saint Church had been left in a state that on a lot of worlds, it had power as the bureaucracy, but no power against the warlords that inevitably sprung up. It compensated by explicitly disarming, becoming more of a religion once again, but a religion which provided social duties. It integrated and carried on its duties as a bureaucracy-faith despite the warlords, and thus survived better, with faith in Olivie-as-emulation-target growing, compared to the older, often-bloodier Streben-Kaisers. This caused a notable spread in the tenets of its faith, among groups which more commonly would have held some of the Galean-origin faiths, or other ones.

    With the foundation of the TSAB, as three large separate polities came together, several large wings of the Saint Church also threw their boat in with this large, unified, and organised group. The TSAB inter-world bureaucracy is built in part on foundations of the old Saint Church, and as the TSAB has grown since its foundation, the Saint Church has slowly retreated in secular influence, focussing more on the humanitarian side of things. A recent fundamentalist uprising has diminished the influence of the Streben-Kaisers (save Olivie) further among several branches, and the importance of Vollständigkeit is becoming more central, removing many of the theistic influences which had crept in. This has, in its own part, prompted a counter-reformation, especially among some of the core worlds with long histories of Streben-Kaiser intercession, and such debates have been interesting at recent conclaves.

    As one of the major remnants of the Royal Belkan civil service, the Saint Church is not synonymous with the TSAB, and in some periphery worlds, is the major "core" influence there. Across many Unadministered Worlds, the Saint Church runs schools, hospitals, and other basic things of civic infrastructure in places where the government simply cannot provide it. For example, there's one Type-1b world, Unadminstered World 27, where in the ruins of the smashed arcology on what on Earth is called Madagascar, the Saint Church is the organisation that runs several massive schools in areas that they've made liveable again, providing food, shelter and education for upwards of ten thousand children up to the age of 12. Those who do well are given further education and the path to getting off-world. Across Dimensional Space, the Saint Church runs clinics, distributes contraceptives, acts as an informal arbitrator in disputes, and accepts volunteers who perform charitable work in return for getting to go off-world. It also retains considerable influence within the TSAB, with branches (such as the one on Mid) part of the government bureaucracy, which is how, for example, there is a Knight of the Saint Church on the TSAB Board of Directors.
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  21. Keter 682

    Keter 682 Grumpy mutant hamster

    Thanks EarthScorpion for sating a bit my unrelenting thirst of knowledge of this marvelous setting build by Aleph and you.

    Religion is always linked to power in one or other way. And speaking of power, with the death of Olivie so relatively near, were The Brains conspiring and working in the shadows in those years until they eventually became the powers behind the public face of the TSAB?.

    Ps: My XenForo spellchecker always try to correct TSAB as STAB casualty or does it know something that we poor readers don't.;)
    Winged One likes this.
  22. Robo Jesus

    Robo Jesus Your Mechanical Messiah

    "Space-Time" is more preferable in English than "Time-Space". It's mainly due to the listed order in which English describes things, and Location sits above Time in that list as being the prefered choice descriptors.
  23. Andmeuths

    Andmeuths Sporadic Author

    It's an interesting conception on how religion might have developed in a world where the Many Worlds theory was actual reality.

    I wonder whether there are even sects which show similar influences to Abrahamic religions, in which they worship the "Originator of all Possibilities" - in other words, the origin of Vollständigkeit itself. Unless Vollständigkeit is meant to be a timeless being, never created but creator, and is actually a form of Monotheistic Pantheism - the Multiverse is all, and the Multiverse is it's own creator, in many strains of "Church" Doctrine in the Dimensions.
  24. Shockz

    Shockz Red like roses

    Er, I think it's more that "stab" is an actual word, while "tsab" is not.
  25. And I thought religious issues here on Earth were bad. It's like my history professor said;

    "There are two types of wars; there are wars, then there are religious wars."
    zadra123 likes this.
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