Discussion in 'The War Room' started by GoC, Jul 15, 2010.
Further info for anyone interested in this.
The Phalanx CIWS is a perfectly reasonable upgrade, as the ship is designed to carry it and the MoD has stated that it plans to have them installed sometime in the 2011-2015 time frame. However, the Phalanx system is widely acknowledged to be very unlikely to successfully intercept a supersonic sea-skimming missile such as the Granit -- this is the reason the United States Navy opted to develop both the RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile and the RIM-162 Enhanced Sea Sparrow Missile.
Harpoons, as previously noted, are a bit of a stretch isofar as the ship is fitted "for but not with" them and there are no plans to actually perform this upgrade. An Ancient has claimed that the Type 45s will get Harpoon launchers salvaged from the old Type 42s when they are scrapped in 2014, but it is impossible for this to be true because Type 42 does not have Harpoon missiles in the first place. The only Royal Navy vessels with Harpoon are the Type 22 Broadsword and Type 23 Duke frigates, which are not slated to be decommissioned until around 2020.
As for Typhoon missiles. . . I assume you mean Tomahawk missiles, as there is no such thing as a Typhoon missile. Even though the Type 45 vessels are "fitted for but not with" Tomahawks, actually fitting them is extremely unlikely because they cannot fit in the Type 45's SYLVER vertical-launch missile system. Adding Tomahawk missiles would require the installation of a completely seperate Mark 41 vertical-launch missile system; while space has been provided for this contingency, we're talking many millions of dollars and months of shipyard time.
In any case, the fact that the Granit missile has a range of over 600 kilometres whereas the Harpoon missile has a range of less than 150 kilometres and the Tomahawk missile is incapable of targetting warships at all means that whether or not the Daring class has been fitted with either missile upgrade is entirely irrelevant. The Daring's chance of intercepting all twenty of the Kirov's Granits with its forty-eight Aster surface-to-air missiles is extremely poor, and even if it succeeds in shooting them down it will does not have sufficient speed or range to then force the Kirov into Harpoon range. If the Granit attack fails, the Kirov can simply retreat without any possibility whatsoever of the Daring intercepting it.
With the Tomahawk, they could be fitted as anti-ship missiles and there is a proposed upgrade that would give them a 900 nm against surface ships.
The RGM-109B Tomahawk Anti Ship Missile is no longer in service and never worked properly in the first place.
The original plan was for the Type 22 batch 3 ships to decomission around 2015 and for their Harpoons to transfer to the Type 45s. However, that was with the idea that the FSC would be built to replace the T22s. With no real progress on the replacement (other than a model now called Type 26) the date has slipped to around 2019-2022.
This is an absolute worst case for the Daring. It assumes the Kirov is getting targeting data from a 3rd party, since there's no way it could fire from 600km without it.
In a 1 on 1, the range of the Granit is irrelevant, since the fight will take place at the range that the ships themselves will detect/see the other. The T45 has a slight advantage there, since it is smaller, with a lower RCS design and with more modern radar and countermeasures. The T45 "should" she the Kirov first.
In general, of course the Kirov has the advantage. Its three and a half times the size of the T45 after all, so no surprise there. I'm not sure if it is a credit to the T45 that is stands any chance here at all, or shows what a white elephant the Kirov truly is.
The modification is likely a pretty easy one - just like a Harpoon Seeker head. I also have read that Block IV would restore the ability. Some discussions indicate tat you can optically guid Tomahawks onto the target.
I don't believe it's a "credit" to the Type 45 for it to be able to have a slight chance simply because the Kirov won't have the benefit of someone else targeting its missiles so they can reach their maximum range.
The problem with the Harpoon seeker head is that this is exactly what ASM Tomahawk had, and it was pretty much the reason why it was troublesome.
You can guide a current TLAM into a ship without modification - but this is a theoretical capability. It would involve feeding it constantly updated GPS coordinates, which needless to say would require almost unheard of or extremely fortunate intelligence, unless you were targeting a stationary ship in port. Also needless to say, this is just about as realistic as a single Kirov volleying everything it has into a single Type 45
The credit would be that it stands a chance in a role its not really designed for whereas this is basically what the Kirov was designed for.
The west generally would task aircraft or a submarine in the anti surface role rather than a ship.
So arguing that the Kirov should have targetting date from a third party would be like me arguing the Daring should get a squadron of Tornados, or a Trafalgar SSN, because that's what would normally be used.
This is after all a somewhat artificial scenario, but that's the fun of it in some ways.
The two things aren't really equivalent though. The Granit SSM was always designed to be employed with the use of third-party targeting, whether by aircraft or the Legenda satellite system, so it could be fired at its maximum range. Aircraft or an SSN aren't assisting the Daring to use its own weapons, they're entirely different weapons platform.
I agree with what you're saying, but then the Daring was designed to be escorting an aircraft carrier, not to go hunting nuclear powered battlecruiser over three times its size on its own. Both sides are missing things in this scenario, the Kirov loses third party targetting, and the Daring loses a carrier battlegroup. Who do you reckon has lost the most?
The Kirov. It now has no point in launching more than one of those missiles, rather than rippling off all of them at the general area of the carrier battlegroup and letting the missiles chose their targets.
Yes. I was tired...
You say they're irrelevant though so it doesn't matter.
Third party targeting disallowed in this incredibly unrealistic scenario.
How do you know that? A Shipwreck is NOT easy to shoot down.