Magical Pony Lyrical Twilight: The Thread 2nd

Discussion in 'Creative Writing' started by PurpleProse, Aug 30, 2013.

  1. PurpleProse

    PurpleProse Squishy Purple Unicorn

    Hello everyone. Purple Prose here once again. Due to the previous thread hitting (and surpassing) the page limit, I've opened a new thread here. I'll try to close this one before we hit 100 pages. Go here for the previous thread.

    Go here if you want to read the fic on
    Go HERE if you'd prefer

    In other news, the new chapter has been posted. It's time for a climax!

    Edit: StrikerS has officially begun. Follow this link for, and follow this link to
  2. Angelform

    Angelform The Cavalry

    So a big update.

    My apologies but I think this is the worse chapter in the story.
    The ‘climax’ is a rather forced confrontation in defiance of all development up to this point. It involves a villain that 1) I don’t recognise and don’t care about and more importantly 2) seems to exist for the solo purpose of having an antagonist where there never was one. It is also following canon to the point of railroading.

    High point in the chapter… the reveal that Graham wasn’t deliberately bringing about genocide.

    Low point is defiantly Twilight failing to recognise ‘Spike’ as an imposter.

    On a constructive note:
    “I’m not sure my fire’s going to scratch this thing…”
    I would have hoped he would have tested his one ability pretty early on in his containment. Possibly change it to ‘My fire doesn’t even scratch this thing.’?
    Whiteeyes likes this.

  3. NachtWal is from Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha The Movie A's, and is there because Admiral Graham and his Familiars aren't in the movie, which I think is because the movies were actually created by the TSAB as propaganda, and they didn't want viewers to know that it was possible for them to act against the Bureau like that. So they decided to give the defense program a much bigger role and had it be what devoured the linker cores of the Knights instead of the Lieze Twins.
    SolipsistSerpen likes this.
  4. AngryDesu

    AngryDesu Cleaner of Hell's Tokamak

    You. Dumb. Fuck.

    Nachtwal has been mentioned several times since, at the very least, Trixie had her first meeting with Nyx while Shamal was healing her with Fancy Pant's love. It was then explained more than once as being the 'real name' of the defence program that everyone in the TSAB, from the very start of the Book of Darkness incident, has been so scared shitless off.

    And as to your 'following canon'... first maybe you should go check your stupid in at the door because it's pretty fucking clear you're carrying more than the legal limit of it. Once you've done that we can move on to your ass backwards claim of 'railroading' - railroading, for the idiots out there (ie: you) is when an author forces strings of events to happen in identical ways regardless of how viable they may be within the context of the setting.

    So far we've seen little to none of this, the events have flown together well and have occurred with variety of divergences ranging from the Wolks being captured, Shamals romance and the early reveal of Nyx(Reinforce) to a concerted effort to remove the defence program before it manifested, blackmail forcing Gil into commiting treachery and now the defence program nachtwal activating because the heroes supercharged it by accident rather than through any great grief of Trixies and/or the time limit ending.

    What you're wrongfully bitching about is not only painfully retarded because it's based on you not fucking reading properly but is also painfully stupid because you're essentially trying to claim that using one of the absolute focal points of MGLN As, a threat/event which defines the entire plot of the series, is somehow 'railroading'.

    To put it simply (but not simply enough for you i wager) there is no 'Book of Darkness' without 'The Defence Program'. To not include the latter means you've changed the former to a point where you may as well not even be using it in the first place.

    So there we go folks. Another happy reminder as to why none of the other big name fanfic writers around here give a flying fuck about anything AngelForm has to say.

  5. You know, while that was well said, and you successfully shot down his whole argument, I can't help but feel that you could have been much more polite about it.

    After all...


    ...and comments like that are just asking for a nasty Flame War to break out. And that would fill who knows how many posts on this thread as more and more people took sides.

    I responded to his post not with flames, but with some information about NachtWal and a link to allow him to watch the A's movie so he can get informed.
    Whiteeyes and EVA-Saiyajin like this.
  6. AngryDesu

    AngryDesu Cleaner of Hell's Tokamak

    For most perhaps yes that would work. But Angelform has a reputation for a reason.

    Further, and no real slight against you, explaining where nachtwal came from in terms of MGLN itself really didn't answer his accusation that it had come out of no-where in the fic - which is a blatant falsehood given it was first named two chapters prior, discussed a number of times since, and stated as being the true name/core of the defense program that everyone had been afraid of from the minute they knew the Book was involved.

    It also didn't really cover his other accusation of railroading, which was quite frankly moronic at best as it proved a distinct lack of understanding the distinction between sticking slavishly to stations of canon and incorporating major plot issues that would remain unchanged regardless of change in setting/timeline/etc.

    It (and actually I too forgot this, though i had meant to mention it also) also doesn't cover how there is nothing mentioning any contact whatsoever between Fake Spike and Twilight, meaning his claim of 'Twi couldn't tell the difference' falls flatter than a pancake. Of course she couldn't tell - she didn't meet him! (okay, it's possible they might have had brief contact, but it's a very brief window of time they could do so in which would mean even if they did Twilight wouldn't have had enough contact to note anything was wrong - especially not when she has much bigger things, like what they were about to do, on her mind.)

  7. And I guess you're called AngryDesu for a reason, huh?

    But remember, we're bronies. We're supposed to love and tolerate. So using insults mixed in with a perfectly logical argument...that sends a really mixed message.

    I just chalked it up to him having a massive case of Viewers Are Morons about all of the things he got wrong, gave him some information, and moved on, even if I didn't know anything about his reputation.
  8. Angelform

    Angelform The Cavalry

    Oh I am well aware of where the so-called character comes from.
    I just. Don’t. Care.

    It is a stopgap ‘villain’ made up, In Universe, by a Hollywood exec because they needed an antagonist.
    Having it be ‘real’ in an AU does nothing to improve it.

    Out of interest, is it worth hitting the ‘show ignored content’ button to dig info out of what I rather suspect is a long and profanity studded rant?
    Whiteeyes likes this.
  9. AngryDesu

    AngryDesu Cleaner of Hell's Tokamak

    And this is, again, why no-one likes you.

    Well, no, they also don't like you for a whole host of other reasons - but this is one of them at least, right after 'being a dumb fuck'.

    First, it was never 'made up', it was the exact same defense program given a highly Belkan-sounding name (nachtwal, 'Night Wall', bringing connotations of firewalls and modern computer-based defensive measures - which ties in with it being the defensive program of what is essentially a killer computer). At worst it was just the same program simply made more palatable for audiences so as not to remind them all of all the planets this thing has, in the reality of the setting, wiped clean of all life.

    It does nothing to change the situation as the defense program was the primary driving conflict of the entire A's series anyway and nachtwal is exactly the same fucking thing with a better name.

    Having it 'be real in this AU doesn't improve it' (and for reference, this isn't a fucking AU it's a goddamn Fusion Crossover) has about as much merit as saying 'the defence program in A's canon isn't important' because, and I repeat this for your slow-ass benefit (not that you're even reading this but who gives a fuck) - they are the same fucking thing to begin with.

    Welp, looks like Angelform is well on track to ignoring people who actually tell him he's full of shit. On the plus side this means so much hilarity in the future as ignoring people is the worst way to deal with them around here.

    Actually it has nothing to do with being angry, though as i do have to point out often it's rare that I actually post while angry - i just use profanity quite a bit to get the message across to morons like Angelform who have repeatedly shown, in other threads, that they literally will not react to anything less than direct confrontation over whatever crap they're peddling (And then will turn and put you on ignore because they cannot bear having their crap shown up for what it is - he's done this to pretty much everyone who has ever disagreed with him on anything).

    Like i said, he has a reputation amongst the major writers around here for a reason.

    Actually we're not. Okay, some of us might be, but around here we're spacebattlers first and foremost - which means we're not supposed to take abject stupidity laying down and are well within our rights to lay in with telling someone that. Provided, of course, we can to some extent back up what we say - there's a difference between 'not being nice about it' and being outright abusive.
    swordomatic likes this.
  10. pheonix89

    pheonix89 Wannabe Game Developer

    Nope. Nachtwal exists in universe outside the movie. It just got a name and an increased role. Its the berserk defense program, you know, the thing that is the real threat in As? Hell, if you watch the movie fight closely, Rein Eins effectively uses Nachtwal as a device for her portion of the fight, you know, the part that is a FIGHT rather than an execution?
  11. PurpleProse

    PurpleProse Squishy Purple Unicorn

    I'm usually not one for conflict, but I really feel that I should contest some of your criticisms, Angelform. To put it frankly some of your criticisms are inaccurate, at best.

    1) Nachtwal is not a villain that just appeared out of nowhere. Its presence has been foreshadowed as far back as Chapter 8. To wit:

    Nachtwal's name was mentioned, by Nyx, during Chapter 11B:

    However, even before the actual mentions, its presence was felt throughout the story. Why was Trixie in a coma? What was Nyx defending her from by keeping her mind in stasis? What was it that attacked Trixie and wounded Zafira? Why don't the Wolkenritter remember their previous service to their past Masters? All of these questions trace back to a single source; the Defense Program, Nachtwal. Nachtwal is the overarching villain of the story. Its actions have driven the events of the story, and now it serves as the final obstacle. To say that Nachtwal was created just for the sake of having a villain is to ignore all the events that have occurred.

    2) This so-called 'forced' confrontation was inevitable, given the various factors that were in play throughout the story. Let's look at the developments that lead up to this conflict chronologically, shall we?

    - The Book of Darkness is in Equestria. Its master is also, presumably, in Equestria, which was determined by looking at the Wolkenritter's attack patterns and incident reports.
    - The High Council does not want the Book of Darkness to fall into the Equestrian's hooves, so they order Gil, whom they have control over, to find a way to obtain the Wolkenritter and the Book.
    - Chrono notices Gil's change in behavior and nervousness, which causes him to become suspicious.
    - Three of the Wolkenritter are captured. Gil sees an opportunity.
    - Gil attempts to do this diplomatically. However, because he has a definite lack of time to prepare (which implies that the brains want this done NOW) his attempts are rebuffed. This, coupled with the diplomatic tensions (remember, Gil was originally here as a Naval Liaison), forces Gil to regroup.
    - Luna reveals, in strict confidence, that she created the Tome of the Night Sky, the original Device the Book of Darkness was based on. Thus, it's likely that she can fix it. Chrono, already suspicious of Gil's behavior and under Luna's confidence, does not relay this information.
    - The High Council gives Gil an ultimatum; locate the Book and deliver it, the Wolkenritter, and their mistress, or there will be consequences, both personally and for Equestria. The strict time limit does not help.
    - While this is going on, the Equestrians find Trixie and Shamal and take them into custody.
    - Gil arrives to find that the Book and its Mistress are in custody.
    - Gil and Chrono discuss matters. Gil becomes certain that Chrono won't help him with his plans if he reveals them, and Chrono's suspicions that something isn't right with his mentor become harder to ignore.
    - The Equestrians plan on taking a proactive route before the Book can cause any further harm, based on what knowledge they have about the Book and its precursor. Gil learns about this from the sensor spell he had planted on Chrono.
    - Spike, noticing the odd behavior of the Liese twins and becoming suspicious, begins following them around.
    - Spike is captured. While this is unfortunate, it also helps give Gil a way in.
    - Aria takes Spike's place via a disguise spell (which is good enough to fool Twilight, who is no doubt stressed and distracted by the upcoming massive undertaking and doesn't want to deal with Spike's shenanigans right then). However, Chrono asks Schach to keep an eye on Gil. Schach is then captured.
    - The Equestrians put their plan into motion. Unbeknownst to them, however, Nachwal has cannibalized Nyx to a certain degree, allowing the Book of Darkness to absorb the Love energy that Cadence throws at it.
    - Gil puts HIS plan into action. Using a pre-placed teleportation spell, Aria teleports Trixie out of the safe area she's been placed in to the basement level of the HQ. Gil, armed with Durandal, directly threatens Trixie. In response, the Book of Darkness teleports to the now-exposed Trixie. Gil nails them both with the Eternal Coffin, freezing them in stasis.
    - Gil's desperate ploy, however, is found out, and Chrono puts the pieces together.
    - Gil discovers that the High Council has decided to go through with their planned contingency in order to cover up any involvement.
    - As Schach and Spike discover Gil, Trixie surrenders herself to the Book, which is fully under Nachtwal's control. They break free of the Eternal Coffin, drain Gil and the Twins, and escape.
    - The Equestrian host confronts Trixie and the Book. The Book captures the assembled heroes, then reabsorbs the 'faulty' Wolkenritter. Trixie herself is consumed by the Book as it manifests its avatar. Recognizing Twilight as a major threat (due to her memories and being the Element of Magic), the Book teleports itself and her (with Fate being caught up) away to an isolated area to deal with her.

    Please explain to me how, exactly, this climax was 'forced' or 'in defiance of all previous developments.' How did I 'railroad' it? This isn't something like in MPLT, where I agreed with you that Twilight fighting Fate alone when her friends could have helped was too close to canon, or that Twilight's methods of fighting Vita mirrored Nanoha's too closely. This climax is what all the previous developments were leading up to. Nearly everything else has either subverted the stations of the canon, or altered it sufficiently that the results are far different from the original.

    Is it perfect? No. There are some elements that could have been improved. However, I decided that it would be better to streamline the story's events and cut down on some elements in order to keep the chapter from becoming too long, a fact of which you commented on in the last chapter.

    If you don't care about Nachtwal, that's fine. If you don't like the idea of the Defense Program being the overarching villain, that's fine too. I cannot force you to care. I do, however, take umbrage with your reasoning.
  12. Angelform

    Angelform The Cavalry

    It is only a conflict if you make it such. Personally I would prefer you contest my opinion, and the opinions of your other readers, more often.

    At what point did I indicate that Nachtwal’s appearance was sudden or unexpected?

    If my wording of ‘don’t recognise’ gave this impression then I apologise, this was not my intent. My point about Nachwal is that it is an empty ‘character’.
    It has no development. It has no interaction. It has virtually no backstory. It has no motivations or expressed opinions. It has nothing that make it worthy of having a name rather than just being The Automated Defence Program.

    The ‘inevitable’ confrontation could have been foiled at any stage by the Equestrians or non-corrupt TSAB discovering or even just unintentionally blocking the kidnapping attempt on Trixie.
    Or by Luna managing to contain the book. Or by the Element bearers reacting and shutting the book down as it was breaking free.

    One of the main themes in the story has been the tension between Equestria and the STAB. The ‘conflict’ with the knights was arguably secondary, if more prominent, because it was pretty much a foregone conclusion even in universe. More it is a conflict that was over.

    Things were perfectly set up for Gil to try something, get caught and thus kick off a climactic conflict (violent, verbal or both) between the two groups to secure the book without activating it. A side element could have been the knights trying to decide where they stand: with Gil and the apparent certainty that the book would be contained and they would never again bring about armageddon… or with Luna for the uncertain chance for them and Trixie to gain freedom.
    The crew of the Arthra provide a potential wild card.

    Instead we have the exact same climax of canon. The book has activated, all parties will divert all efforts to combating it. The only things that differentiate it are the different cast and the orbiting Friendship Cannon being a bit more trigger happy.
    Heck we even have the same situation for the book, with a remorseful AI being sent out to do stuff rather than giving some screen time to the defence program.

    Perhaps railroading is too harsh a term but you certainly kept thing far closer to canon than was needed.

    To clarify I very much like long stories. What I dislike are long chapters/updates.
  13. PurpleProse

    PurpleProse Squishy Purple Unicorn

    Allow me to address your points.

    1) Nachtwal is an 'empty' character.

    This statement, and the ones that follow, are incorrect.

    - Nachtwal does interact with characters, and its interactions have been entirely antagonistic. It attacked Trixie. It terrifies Nyx and uses her as a part of its programming. It's very presence TERRIFIES Cadence. It serves as the over-arching foe of the story, beyond the TSAB/Equestrian tensions. The second the Book of Darkness shows up it takes center stage because it, and by extension Nachtwal, is a force that destroys entire worlds.

    - Nachtwal has sufficient backstory to establish it as a threat by proxy of the Book of Darkness. We know all we need to know about it; it blows up worlds. It broke free and killed one character's father. It's a defense program. Its name suggests the Belkans created it. Since the Book was originally Equestrian it was, by logical deduction, ADDED by the Belkans to the original system.

    - Nachtwal's does have a motivation, if a very, very simple one. It's a defense program. It's entire purpose is to protect the Book of Darkness. The problem is that it considers EVERYTHING to be a threat to the Book of Darkness. It's expressed purpose is survival. "We will not die," as it put it via Trixie.

    Nachtwal is a simple character, but not an empty one. It is a beast. A force of nature. A wild, maddened weapon that happens to have enough knowledge and sentience to be incredibly dangerous. It should be noted, of course, that by your listed criteria Raising Heart would be considered an 'empty' character. And yet most fans of the series would consider Raising Heart just as much an important character as Nanoha herself.

    2) Foiling the kidnapping/containing the Book/Nailing it with the Elements

    The problem with that is that Gil and the Twins are hardly incompetent. Considering they managed to scrounge together a decent scheme in such a short time-frame should attest to that. The only really suspicious people were Chrono and Spike, one of whom was captured and used. As to someone intervening; by the point Gil put his plan into action, he had cleared out the TSAB personnel (aside from Amy, Chrono and Schach). He had sufficient equipment and assistance to make sure nobody knew what he was doing. And finally, he's a distinguished admiral and the de-facto head of the HQ. Was anybody aside from Chrono and Spike really going to ring any alarm bells?

    Second, Luna had the Book contained... Until Nachtwal decided to wake up, then broke through several of her wards and mind controlled Trixie. The same Device that broke out of a maximum level TSAB ward and ATE several ships worth of people, including Chrono's father. This is not something that can be easily contained.

    As for nailing the Book with the Elements, what do you think they were about to do when the Book nailed everyone with the sealing bind? The Elements are weapons of last resort, and even Luna didn't know if they would have an effect on the Book.

    3) The alternate scenario.

    There's a few problems with your scenario as presented. First, you're ignoring the fact that the Book/Nachtwal is waking up. This was why the Equestrians put their plan immediately into action, which left an opening for Gil, and so on

    But let's assume that the scenario you offered plays out. Gil is caught red-handed (somehow)? When? In the planning, when next to nobody had anything other than suspicions about his actions? When Spike got captured in an empty room and then spirited away to Gil's office by Lotte and hidden in an invisibility-cloaked spell cage? When Aria was impersonating Spike while everybody else was busy focusing on the much, much more important task at hand? When Trixie got kidnapped by Aria, which is how our heroes found out about it? When he was trying to freeze the Book and Trixie with Eternal Coffin, thus triggering the same calamity? When?

    But let's say that Gil gets captured. The threat is still there! Nachtwal is still waking up! Do you think that the Equestrians are going to listen to Gil and even consider his offer? An offer that, I might add, essentially boils down to 'Let's freeze Trixie, The Book, and the Wolkenritter in ice, hand them over to the Bureau and just hope for the best.' Even if our heroes considered that a good plan even for a second, Gil and the Twins would find themselves faced with four very pissed, very protective Knights of the Cloud ready to turn them into so much fine paste for suggesting a horrible fate for their Mistress. That's assuming Gil's plan even had a chance of working.

    Now, for the sake of argument, let's say that they do have this conflict. Let's say that they debate this out. Nachtwal's still waking up. Gil's obviously failed his mission. In comes the Arthra with a charged Arc-en-Ciel. Either the Arc-En-Ciel fires, wiping out Canterlot and everyone in a 100 km radius, or Celestia blasts the Arthra. In the former, the story's over. In the latter, congrats. Celestia has for all intents and purposes attacked a TSAB ship. Sound the drums of war. Either way, there is no way this ends well for Equestria.

    But the greater problem is that that scenario isn't remotely as satisfying as the current one. Which would you much rather read; a story where the major, world-destroying force is neatly wrapped up and everyone's just debating what to do with it? Or a climax where everything goes awry, and now our heroes have not one, but TWO battles that they have to fight in order to save their world? I don't know about you, but I'd choose the latter over the former. And if that climax is close to the canon source, then so be it. Just because something is close to canon doesn't mean it's BAD.

    Yes, one of the major plot-lines running through this story is the tensions between the TSAB and Equestria. However, it would be better to state that the main conflict is about clashing cultures, perspectives and moralities: the militaristic TSAB versus the comparatively peaceful Equestrians, the limited views of the Wolkenritter versus the greater view of the heroes, the clashes of Celestia and Luna and Trixie and the Knights in the flashbacks, Chrono's desire for vengeance versus the need to forgive and the struggle to understand one's opponents and their motivations.There is more than just one plotline.

    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a climax to write.
  14. Angelform

    Angelform The Cavalry

    As you clearly have no interest in actual discussion I won’t waste further time on it.

    But for the one question you asked: I would far prefer a story about multiple opposing protagonists rather than the obvious-hero vs obvious-villain ending you are giving.
    Whiteeyes likes this.
  15. Well, that answers that question I asked about whether Hayate and Nanoha would ever appear. Well, part of it, anyway.
  16. Chojomeka

    Chojomeka Tweetin' in the New Year!

    It'll be interesting to see the heroes racing against the clock to fight the book and stop the Arthra from destroying Canterlot and Equestria with it's Arc-En-Ceil and save Lindy.
  17. Even better, what are relations going to be like in the canon 'Strikers' period? Let's see, sabotage of an attempt to get under control a device of mass destruction, kidnapping of an Equestrian subject, attempted mass murder, and three counts of attempted regicide. If the TSAB does not serve up some high level scapegoats (Graham obviously wasn't the top level in this) then relations with Equestria might go all the way down to 'don't let the door hit you in the plot on the way out'.

    Specific individuals would be excepted, but not the TSAB as a whole, or those individuals acting in an official capacity. Heck even if things don't go that bad, RF6 might be more an experiment in cooperation between the two governments that are finally getting beyond the glaring stage of diplomacy. This could also be a three way, if Schach reports back with the Saint's Church being pissed at the TSAB.
  18. SolipsistSerpen

    SolipsistSerpen Solipsist Serpent

    Are you sure you're not confusing "disagreeing with you" with "no interest in actual discussion"? It's a common mistake on the internet.

    It's interesting. Your latest criticisms (hews closer to canon than necessary at the conclusion) actually have some merit though I can see why the author went the way they did (lots of people get disappointed when you build towards a giant monster waking up and then don't have the giant monster wake up). Of course, you got everyone's back up by starting out with nonsense criticisms about established villains coming out of nowhere, so you really should have opened differently.

    You like constructive cricism, right? Open with your strong arguments and don't be too aggressive in your presentation of them. Reread them to make sure you've phrased them in a way that makes sense before posting. Also, remember that when most of your points are completely subjective (other than the objectively wrong one), it just makes you look bad to dismiss other people's as subjective.
  19. AngryDesu

    AngryDesu Cleaner of Hell's Tokamak

    Go check AngelForms posts in other threads. You'll soon find that this is less 'confusion' and more 'normal operating practice' for him. He will happily bitch on and on regardless about how much evidence (i mean look at the truckload PurpleProse dropped) you can provide to say he's wrong. And when he inevitably loses it's suddenly 'well you're not interested in proper discussion' or 'you're being impolite' and, usually, 'i'm going to ignore you now'.

    As I've said a few times, he has a reputation for pulling this kind of shit with a large number of local writers for a reason.
  20. Angelform

    Angelform The Cavalry

    I admit it may well just be my interpretation but his wording rather seems to imply he has no intention of entertaining alternate viewpoint and no real interest in changing my opinion, he was just blowing off steam.

    Still waiting for someone to explain when or how I said it ‘came out of nowhere’. Do you think I would have gotten a better reception had I simply stated I hate the very concept and left it at that?

    How can you say people dislike when the giant monster doesn’t turn up? It never happens!

    Knowing this intellectually and implementing it after being disappointed by one of your favourite stories are two drastically different things.
  21. Arkalest

    Arkalest Shadow Cabal Human Resource

    Mmmh....If Angelform dislikes this story, then it must be good.....
  22. PurpleProse

    PurpleProse Squishy Purple Unicorn

    It's not that I don't intend to entertain your viewpoint, Angelform. It's just that some of the statements you made were factually wrong. You stated that Nachtwal was an empty character, with no development, interaction, backstory or motivation. I provided evidence to the contrary. You offered an alternative set of scenarios. I provided my reasons why I didn't believe those scenarios were viable.

    Now, if you don't like the concept or the way that the story has turned out, that's fine. It's okay to not like things. I've accepted the fact that not everyone is going to love the story. However, this is a climax that I've had planned from the initial stages of the story, and a logical conclusion to the story's events. The fact that the climax is a fight against a giant monster doesn't negate or nullify any of the other threads of conflict that are running through the story.

    Yes, I could have, at any time, had Luna or the others shut down Nachtwal. As the author, that was well within my power. But let's examine the consequences, shall we? What would it mean for the story if the Book of Darkness, this massive, world-ending threat that the TSAB is terrified of, is easily defeated by Luna or the Elements of Harmony?

    First of all, there's a question of balance. It would exalt the Equestrians, while making the TSAB appear useless and weak. It would imbalance both sides of the crossover, suggesting that I view the organizations and setting of MLP to be far superior to that of MGLN. That would be bad writing.

    Now, what else would it mean if I simply shut down Nachtwal at any point before the climax? It would completely invalidate any build-up that I've done to establish the Book of Darkness as a credible threat. It would essentially make the major threat a paper tiger. It would make a major antagonist on par with Nightmare Moon, Discord, and so on look like a chump. And that would be bad writing.

    Worse, to simply shut down this sort of climax would unpleasantly subvert the expectations of the reader. To demonstrate, let's take something like a Godzilla movie. Godzilla, as everyone knows, is a massive threat, a walking force of destruction without equal. Let's say that a new Godzilla movie comes out, and all the trailers show how terrifying Godzilla is. You go and see the movie, and throughout the entire movie Godzilla is being built up as this tremendous threat. We see the JSDF mobilizing all of their weapons, setting up defenses, preparing for the arrival of this giant, nuclear-fire-breathing engine of disaster. And then, the climax comes... and Godzilla's nowhere to be found. We then find out Godzilla was killed by the Americans. And then the movie ends. That's what you're suggesting. This is, after all, a fusion fic of MLP and MGLN, set during the A's story line. To do this without providing a satisfying fight would be to invalidate the reader's expectations in the wrong way. And that would be bad writing.

    Now, as I said before, it's okay if you don't like how the fic turned out. However, I disagree that my conclusion is somehow lessened because it hews too close to the canon for your taste.
  23. firefossil

    firefossil I have charts. Lots of charts.

    I think that Angelform has a valid point. The cross with MLP shoved the Book of Darkness story off the canon MGLN A's rails, such that the most likely outcome would be the book being defused, with the climax being the conflict between TSAB and Equestria. However the author uses the Brains from the sequal, draws Nachtwal in from semi-canon, then lets them both perform rather highly, with Gil and the twins evading being caught despite being heavily outnumbered by competent magically talented and careful people, while Nachtwal somehow steals the love energy despite it being anathema to it, so that... the author can shove the story back onto canon rails, where Trixie activates the Book of Darkness, its representative during the activation being the reluctant good side, and the two protagonists getting dumped into lotus eater land.

    I'm not saying that introducing the Brains or drawing Nachtwal and the like is fundamentally bad writing or something, fanfic is all about mixing and matching and tweaking setting material, but to be frank railroading is railroading. The Book of Darkness having roughly the same climax as the canon climax, despite a drastically dissimilar leadup and players, didn't "just happen". It happened because the author built the right levers into the story in advance, so that he could then pull those levers at just the right time to rerail the train, and even then, it still comes across as a little forced.

    While the Book might be powerful, the cast did all the right things to defeat it, only to have their hard-earned and well-planned victory ripped out from under their noses by Gil(under non-canon duress, if from canon sources) pulling a successful backstabbing in a high security situation and Nachtwal(who is semi-canon) pulling a surprise reversal. This is like if the investigators figure out how to stop the summoning of Cthulhu with a minimum of fuss, only for the last moment it turns out it doesn't work for some contrived if forewarned reason and they all get gobbled up instead. That'd actually be par for the course for a Lovecraft story, but not for a story where heroics and competence actually get rewarded.
    Angelform likes this.
  24. Angelform

    Angelform The Cavalry

    As subjective opinion neither of us can be factually wrong.
    I do not believe the development given to the defence program is enough to justify calling it a character. You believe differently.

    Shutting down the BoD before the climax would be counterproductive. As you say it needs to present a threat, but this does not mean it needs to be an active threat.
    It works as well as ‘we must stop this thing from activating and killing us all’ as ‘it has activated and we must stop it from killing us all’. This would also avoid the issue of invalidating a lot of the hype the BoD has gotten.

    Given the setup I cannot see how you are going to avoid doing more than you already have to present Equestria as better than the TSAB.
    The BoD will be defeated and with little to no collateral damage, unless you are significantly changing the tone of the fic. This means it will either be blasted with love/friendship and nullified or ported up into orbit and shot by the TSAB rainbow cannon… and then repaired by the Equestrians.
    At the same time either the ponies or friendly humans must prevent the rainbow cannon from shooting the planet.
    The TSAB are not coming out of this smelling of roses.

    A big fight, or preferably a fight interspersed with verbal debate, is indeed expected. But nothing mandates who that fight should involve.
    Also consider the fight you have set up. On one side we have Nyx and on the other we have Celestia, Luna, Twilight, Fate, Chrono, Graham and groupies, Schach, Arf, Yuuno, Shinning Armor and Dash plus Cadence, the non-combat elements and whatever mooks they can bring along. If we assume that the fight is not going to be a curbstomp (or a visually impressive but narratively boring shooting gallery) then most of those are going to be eclipsed to the point of near irrelevancy.
    Alternatively you can only include Twilight and Fate, but this invalidated all the buildup that gathered such a horde in the first place.

    You could instead have arranged matters for Graham to be the primary opposition with the Equestrian heavy hitters occupied keeping the BoD contained and or the ship pacified.

  25. Sadly, Graham is not going to be capable of fighting at all. As proof, I reference this part from towards the end of the chapter.

    And before you say that it was Trixie, her linker core was absorbed during the flashback chapter showing how she got in her condition. Process of elimination therefore indicates that it was Admiral Graham.

    And once again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that the Book would still be awakening in the hypothetical suggestion you made for an alternate way for this to have gone.

    You need to wake up and take a good look at the cold reality of the situation. Nachtwal is the defense program of the Book of Darkness. Even in canon Nanoha, she was a really tough opponent.

    And what's more, you severely underestimate how competent Graham and the Twins can be. The only reason they were exposed at all is because they were being forced to rush things. In 'It Was Such a Small Wish - Knight Side', the chapter ended with him being given a time limit of 48 hours to do his job, or Hayate would be hurt and the Arc-en-ciel, their contingency, would be used. Sure, they were jerks and decided to use it anyway, but he gets points for attempting the solution that would harm the smallest possible number of people and ponies.

    Basically, you REALLY need to get your head screwed on straight, because you're saying stuff that's so wrong that it stopped being funny a long time ago.
    Sunder the Gold likes this.