Discussion in 'The Index' started by K9Thefirst1, Jan 8, 2012.
New thread again.
The question was "What will it take for Earth to be, if not a full-fledged Administrated World, at least a minor power that big players would lose more than it's worth annexing, in the vein of the Periphery powers of Battletech?"
I answered the question, nothing more, nothing less.
We don't know how long the Dimensional Transfer works, so it being "close" to any other worlds may or may not be an issue. I was working on the basis that Earth is "close" enough to TSAB worlds that it isn't a issue, as their isn't word on the thing. And even if Earth isn't, I'm sure there are some uninhabited worlds that can be used as forward bases.
And once again, I was answering what it would take for it to be more trouble than it's worth to take over, not for Earth to have any meaningful influence on other worlds.
And inter-dimensional mass-weapon city-killing strike capacities are precisely what the TSAB should be interested in clamping down on as hard as possible. Here's a tip; looking like a bunch of dangerous xenophobic maniacs with illegal weapons that can hit other plants is not a good idea in the long run. Or, indeed, the short run.
How about the nations of Earth adopting China's policy of no first strike? That could placate the TSAB somewhat.
Up until said Earth Nations realize how many operations the TSAB has done on Earth already. I mean to Earth eyes the shit Gil got up to, with the Book of Darkness incident, could easily be taken as a first strike. He did, after all, have his familiars intentionally cause the release of the Logia-of-mass-destruction Defence Program on Earth.
Even if they decide to let bygones be bygones (haha, yeah, right) that sort of thing isn't exactly conductive to Earth trusting any TSAB forces in any way.
Which may have repercussions for Nanoha and Hayate, who may end up essentially exiled from Earth as long as they have loyalty to the TSAB.
If Earth is to join, it won't by strong-arming the TSAB to let it do so. For all we know, all it takes for TSAB to extend the offer is making official Contact.
TSAB would just play the 'our ball in your lawn' and 'you're not equipped to deal with it' cards. There's also the question of how far would the TSAB acknowledge such issues as leverage.
...Gil is operating somewhat illegally right? So...denial that it's a TSAB sanctioned op? Which does bring to mind another problem.
Here, terrorists have to go through so many hurdles just to get material for a nuke. Or a biological agent.
In TSAB space, you have Lost Logias in the hands of smugglers.
Which are...a more class of criminal here on Earth.
Unaccounted mini-nukes from Russia nightmare from the 1990's now becomes real.
@kilopi505: Yeah, that was what I going for. I was going for absolute minimum additional requirements or changes here.
@AngryDesu: Well, considering the Book of Darkness incident is highly classified, they might never know.
Also, as I have said, I was answering the question as stated, and not a bit more. If you want a more stable, healthy situation, I'm not the guy to ask.
Edit: Damn, simultaneous post.
That only work when the ball isn't a nuke that was actived by the ball's owner.
For Earth to be important depend on how advanced is TSAB non magical science. If we have mundane tech superioty, they will be interessed in doing trade.
Well...if AMF's can disrupt magic, and everything in TSAB space runs on it...we might be a source of things that don't go broke in such situations.
And I have a question. If Earth does become a member of the TSAB, does that mean we have to send troops to peacekeeping operations? Because...will our armies outnumber a lot of local security forces? Militia and the like?
We might even introduce the option of intervening in Orussia to save human lives.
My initial point, that Earth cannot risk taking too aggressive a stance, still remains. And the TSAB would only let Earth play victim so much.
Peaceful assimilation seems more plausible since the TSAB have plenty to offer that Earth would be unwise to refuse, especially because the TSAB doesn't seem like the type to ask too heavy a price. Membership first, politicking later.
@roots lord: I remember a fic with something like that. When a rival to the TSAB revealed a mass based super weapon, they figured out the most likely place the parts could have come from: Earth. In it Earth is apparently the only non-aligned world with the required tech-base and expertice to supply the parts, with the only other option currently being unwilling to trade.
Apparently all the other worlds with such things got snapped up by the TSAB or a third major nation. Earth avoided such a fate by being neutral and generous amounts of asskissing to everyone bigger than it, along with being right on the border between the three.
That was referring to Earth abusing the Lost Logia incidents as leverage. While TSAB would be willing to grant recompose in light of them, they would only amount to so much considering they were both resolved with virtually no harm done to Earth.
Quite. The sensible way to do it is to try to do it through trade and culture, and "soft power". It's ridiculous to try to use hard power in such circumstances, so what you do instead is leverage the fact that Earth is a seven-billion-plus population world, and apply for the step before proper membership (akin to Norway's relationship with the EU) as a stepping stone, following the normal formalities for doing so. Meanwhile, you start trying to see what they have, that you want, and what you want, that they have, and get trading links set up... as it stands, Earth is starting in a position where a lot of cultural exports are going to have to be the initial starting point, as we lack knowledge for material goods. From there on in, you act like sane, rational, not-causing-trouble people, and try to stop incidents.
And then you do things like civilised people and get it into your heads that Earth will not be a big fish in a small pond, and will at best be a medium sized fish in a very large pond, and accept that any ideas of cultural purity or innate Earth superiority are silly.
Looks like I could have been more exact.
What is the gap between "a minor power that big players would lose more than it's worth annexing, in the vein of the Periphery powers of Battletech", a genuine interstellar/interdimensional power and An Entry With A Bang?
Well...for me it is...the number of men at arms and nukes and other nasty things we have and potentially have, less than 20 mages of B class level that start teaching more people of lesser talent...and a few space shuttles that have been upgraded with magic, and a budding colony in space.
Shouldn't simply gaining Administered World status grant you that? 'Protect one of our own' and all that.
I think he/she is saying those things while keeping in mind our collective national and international independence from TSAB and any other political entity in Nanohaverse.
The TSAB is just a multi-world version of the UN.
To me, it looked more like a...confederation. What's the difference between the UN and TSAB, come to think of it?
What instantly comes to my mind is that the UN don't have their own standing armies, navies and police forces. And they don't have a territory to their name (unlike Mid-Childa for the TSAB).
Yeah...comparing it to the UN really doesn't fit it for me.
The sad fact of the matter is that without access to Lost Logia or Super Science, Earth does not mean shit to the TSAB. And if earth starts playing around with Lost Logia then the TSAB will intervene, it is their job to do so. If earth still plays around with potentially planet destroying superweapons there will be an "accident" eventually. Keep in mind that Lost Logia are a tech base which the TSAB, who has inherited at least some knowledge of them from Belka, even if only about how bad they can be if abused, does not truly understand. There is not a nation on earth that has scientists who would have a clue as to what they are doing.
The minute the first city goes up in smoke (hopefully its a city, not a continent) then people will be pissed about whatever government was playing around with it despite warnings. People tend to lose their tempers when the government plays around with something they shouldn't and it ends up killing people. That is internal issues, the international feedback.......... whatever regime is responsible for the "accident" will be the subject of such anger from the international community that it is hard to describe it in words, and avoid getting banned fro obscenity. They just played around with something they had no clue as to how it even works which could have ENDED THE WORLD, this will upset a lot of people, especially if they were told to stop by the TSAB and ignored the warning.
Remember earth has no idea how the tech base of the TSAB even works. It would take decades for the nations of earth to adapt to a completely new form of science using a form of energy (magic) they had no idea existed or could even detect. Unless someone hands it to them and walks them through using it Earth is not going to be a major threat, outside of gaining access to Lost Logia, which are much more of a threat to them than the TSAB. Earth is just one planet, if it gets destroyed then they are fucked, the TSAB has multiple worlds, which earth probably can't even reach.
Come to think of it, I guess you're right. That still doesn't change much; Earth would, logically, still have it's autonomy. I just can't picture the TSAB going through the hassle of micromanagement on such a scale.
Ruwella's case makes it apparent that there are other angles available to Earth.
But there will be problems. Like...the TSAB doesn't want any mass weapons around. They are illegal.
Yeah maybe everyone on Earth will let go of the nukes.
The guns...can the U.S. change their Constitution just to please somebody from another planet?
Will China or Russia? Or any other nation allow what will amount to be...for me it would be castration.
Yeah, castration. Without our guns and weapons we are defenseless against anybody who goes around fighting with magic.
And since I have been informed (by reading through this same forum) that the TSAB is...overstretched in canon...not enough personnel to protect Earth...you get the idea.
And a defense that prevents one crime from happening is better than punishing a crime after the fact...right?
They could pull a Germany and hide the fact they are getting LL if the TSAB are overstretched they could gain them and hide them where they could be studied.