The Marvel Abstracts vs the Dc's Endless

Discussion in 'Vs. Debates' started by Jedi Matt, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. Jedi Matt

    Jedi Matt Retired Evil Cardinal

    Amatsu Mikaboshi



    Who wins?
  2. Dessolution

    Dessolution Stealin' Stones and Bones

    What is it with you and Amatsu? Besides, the Endless wins. They are everything in a literal concept.
  3. Jedi Matt

    Jedi Matt Retired Evil Cardinal

    New Kid on the block. And the Chaos War is actually interesting for the most part.
  4. More literally, the Endless cannot be destroyed, only a particular aspect can, and a new version incarnates immediately.

    OTOH, we have seen that it is possible to kill a Marvel abstract (particularly Death).
  5. Jedi Matt

    Jedi Matt Retired Evil Cardinal

    Ok well win by killing that particular aspect.

    Also who killed Death? I know the Beyonder did..
  6. Q99


    The whole Thanos Imperative thing is all about how it's possibly to kill death in a universe.
  7. Jedi Matt

    Jedi Matt Retired Evil Cardinal

    I see. I haven't even gotten to the Thanos Imperative. Havent been abel get it at the comic store:/
  8. Those were the examples I was recalling, although Galactus "died" as well.

    I still give this to the Endless, since they simply don't do the "fighting" thing. They don't need to.
  9. Splattercat

    Splattercat The New Guy Super Awesome Happy Fun Time

    The Infinity Gauntlet can destroy Death/Eternity/Oblivion etc. That's why Eternity feared it being allowed to exist. He actually petitioned to the Living Tribunal to have it turned over to him so that it couldn't threaten him anymore.
  10. Sidewaysvision

    Sidewaysvision Omnipotent on fridays

    On the one hand, the Ultimate Nullifier can quite literally erase a CONCEPT. On the other hand, there's all sorts of metaphysics weirdness going on here.

    On the gripping hand, Sandman was pretty awesome, so I don't know.
  11. The Sentry

    The Sentry The Sentry > All

    Team Marvel wins. They have shown more power.
  12. Dessolution

    Dessolution Stealin' Stones and Bones

    More power means squat to the Endless.
  13. Q99


    Lucifer Morningstar is a multiversal-level cosmic in DC.

    He couldn't touch Dream when Dream was *in hell* :)
  14. Dessolution

    Dessolution Stealin' Stones and Bones

    More like, he made Lucifer look like a douche in front of the entire citizens of Hell and walked out the gates of hell as if he owned the place. This is the same Lucifer that helped peeled off an entire multiversal universe which he created (using Michel's creation power) and stitched it back together with the original universe (DC universe).

    The thing about Endless is that as long as a single person feels that little certain spark, whether they are a sentient being or a cosmic being, the Endless will have power over them. Despite the fact that they only live FOR them.
  15. CuriousStranger

    CuriousStranger WRITE ANYTHING

    The Sandman also has some of the most awesome boast contests I've seen.

    Nothing about power, but damn, I love that quote.
  16. Sidewaysvision

    Sidewaysvision Omnipotent on fridays

    Actually, Dream mentioned that Lucifer COULD destroy him. That, in fact, Lucifer was more powerful than anything except his creator.

    That's part of why Dream going into Hell was gripping; he was in very real danger of annihilation.

    On his home turf, mind, Dream is quite powerful, locking Azazel into a jar. He mentions that elsewhere, Azazel might have been able to devour him, but not in the Dreaming.
  17. Dessolution

    Dessolution Stealin' Stones and Bones

    Actually, the only reason Dream was like is because he wasn't at his full power. A human stole part of his power, the red crystal that contains most of his power, which later distorted the world of dreams. Dream had to get it back, but he was facing things with half his power.
  18. CuriousStranger

    CuriousStranger WRITE ANYTHING

    No, what Sideways is referring to is when Morpheus decided to go down to Hell to save the soul of one of his loves. At that point, he had his full power and put on his game face. Had his helm on and everything, and still worried that Lucifer would destroy him.

    Of course, he got there and then Lucifer decided to give him Hell as a present because Eternal Damnation is for losers.
  19. Sidewaysvision

    Sidewaysvision Omnipotent on fridays

    Not so. Dream even says that Lucifer is more powerful than -anything- else, himself included.

    The Azazel quote comes after Dream has recovered his full power from the ruby, after Lucifer has kicked everyone out of Hell. Dream is never relaxed when he has to face Lucifer; it's ALWAYS a Big Deal.

    Dream and the Endless are > regular gods and entities, but Lucifer at full power is repeatedly stated to be greater than anything except literal omnipotence.
  20. Dessolution

    Dessolution Stealin' Stones and Bones

    ^The Endless are just that, Endless. Even they can't be destroyed by Lucifer. Besides, Lucifer is said only to be less then Presence himself. But even Lucifer isn't greater then Death and Destiny. Nah uh, no chance in hell.

    and ah...hmm, well, considering Dream pointed out that he had a slight chance of losing against Lucifer. And this IS Lucifer we are talking about, and the Abstracts aren't exactly up to par on Lucifer in terms of raw strength and power.
  21. Sidewaysvision

    Sidewaysvision Omnipotent on fridays

    Dream states pretty clearly that Lucifer is only surpassed in power by the Presence; this includes Death and Destiny. He's a unique being.

    Dream also states that Azazel could have harmed him, were he not in the Dreaming.

    The Endless are incredibly overwhelming within their own spheres of existence, but there are rules they have to follow. Dream was conjured and imprisoned by a hedge-wizard, because there are rules to magic. It's not just about power.
  22. Q99


    Well, anything except the Presence.
  23. Gecko4lif

    Gecko4lif Tristitia

    And Synnar
  24. Dessolution

    Dessolution Stealin' Stones and Bones

    You do realize that Destiny came before the Presence right? Even Lucifer doesn't know his own destiny when he directly challenged Destiny.
  25. thtadthtshldntb

    thtadthtshldntb Anti nBSG Troll Super Awesome Happy Fun Time

    In the first Books of Magic series, when Mister E (IIRC these are the events of issue 4) took Tim Hunter to the end of time, Death was closing down Yahweh's second creation and more or less stated everything dies. Even her brother did. Based on that and the fact that we have seen that Death's realm/house is in the Void outside all Creations, I would say only Death in her current state actually is absolutely Endless.

    Lucifer did not erase Dream for the same reasons that he choose not to erase, it was either Duma or Remiel, when one of them pissed him off. It would violate Yahweh's, plan, which Lucifer and Michael are the only other beings in all existence to be aware of to any great degree.

    The Presence does not equal Yahweh. Yahweh is the absolute Source of everything, he states that in Lucifer, when they finally have their chat. At that point Elaine has been given the role of the Presence and other aspects of God for Yahweh's Second Creation/DCU.

    Lucifer rejects any aspects of the Plan. That's why he sped off into the infinite oblivion of the Void outside all Creations, because that was his only way to escape it. Yahweh actually offered to elevate Lucifer to being an equal being to him. Lucifer refused because that would have bound him into the Plan.


    I'll take the Endless over the Marvel singular reality abstracts that you cited. Abraxus puts up a fight. Eternities mbodies have lost to Genis Vell, the Ancient One (in a kung fu battle no less) and have been utterly wtfpawned by Dormammu. Galactus is not an abstract.

    Only one Galactus, Galactus Prime, the 616 version who contains Abraxus, is omniversally important. We have seen many alternate reality Galacti die and nothing bad happened. Hell Abraxus killed all the Galacti in all existences and those realities continued blithely onward.