Tyranids are overrated, do you agree?

pdmasta · Apr 2, 2016

Hi,

I recently put up a thread about replicators being over rated, and I thought this was another one worthy of debate. Generally, the wankfest around Tyranids is that they multiply exponentially and their numbers are insane.

I have been doing some research into our little friends and none of those statements are actually accurate. Here are a few things that demonstrate they are over rated.

1. It takes them 80-100 days to strip the planet of all usable molecules for bio reproduction. Based on what I have researched, this 80-100 day figure was for large Hive Fleets, not a small broken fleet of 15 Hive Ships. It is unclear if small hive fleets can strip a planet. The point being though, this stripping serves two purposes, to feed the swarms appetite and to grow new units. The 'nids' can't dump and run and takeover the entire planet. The growing of their ships and armies isn't done on the service, all that has to come off the planet. So the Hive Fleet has to stick around or go hide and then come back when its time to strip the biomass. This really limits their growth, yes they can send troops ahead to attack a planet, but the multiplication factor doesn't happen until the Norn-queen inside the Hive Ships begin to build new creatures with the bio mass of the planet. Strictly speaking, they are limited to a few planets at a time, each taking 80-100 days.

2. Norn-Queen these giant things are inside the Hive Ships and are the only thing that can produce more Nids. They are giant incubators and mold, create and tamper with genetic material to build the soldier/helpers that they want. The problem is, it is one hell of a process for them to get the final 'goods' they need to build more stuff. it might seem routine against idiot races they might face, but against a galactic race, that is time they might not have. Also, if a Norn Queen is killed, the Hive goes full retard, they start killing each other like savages. Captain Ventris was able to board a Hive Ship and poison her with a DNA strand. I mean..c'mon really? The entire Hive attack on Tarsis Ultra fell apart. This was the defeat of the largest Hive Fleet, the Leviathan. That was their destruction. Weak if you ask me.

3. Shadow in the Warp, totally over played. If it was that detrimental, the Hive Fleets would not have been approachable and eventually killed off.

4. Slow as hell FTL, but this is too obvious

5. There have been 3 Hive Fleets that came into the galaxy, Behemoth, Kraken, Leviathan. They have all been defeated by 'regular' combat. Not super weapons, or deus ex machines, just regular space/ground combat with a pinch of flavour. Leviathan fleet totally fell apart when a SINGLE Norn-Queen was killed, totally unacceptable for this level of wank.

All in all, in my OPINION. The Tyranids are not galactic threats. They are beaten too easily, and their Hive Mind is not....well its not that intelligent. It adapts very very well, but its 'target' acquisition for worlds is based on feedback from forward troops, almost instinctual. There doesn't seem to be a 'grand plan' that might be necessary for a full wankfest.

Firaxxa · Apr 2, 2016

Your right about them being Wanktastic, but you don't give them enough credit. They have consumed several Galaxies worth of life, and plus they did fuck over the Ultramarines the first time they entered the Galaxy, which is always a plus.

pdmasta · Apr 2, 2016

Firaxxa said:
Your right about them being Wanktastic, but you don't give them enough credit. They have consumed several Galaxies worth of life, and plus they did fuck over the Ultramarines the first time they entered the Galaxy, which is always a plus.

we dont really know if they consumed multiple galaxies, the only proof is that they approach from different angles. Big deal, that doesn't imply anything

c'tan cat · Apr 2, 2016

pdmasta said:
Hi,

I recently put up a thread about replicators being over rated, and I thought this was another one worthy of debate. Generally, the wankfest around Tyranids is that they multiply exponentially and their numbers are insane.

I have been doing some research into our little friends and none of those statements are actually accurate. Here are a few things that demonstrate they are over rated.

Well part of the issue is you're going in using phrases like "wankfest" and trying to say they're over-hyped. It's like asking people to get annoyed or defensive.

1. It takes them 80-100 days to strip the planet of all usable molecules for bio reproduction. Based on what I have researched, this 80-100 day figure was for large Hive Fleets, not a small broken fleet of 15 Hive Ships. It is unclear if small hive fleets can strip a planet. The point being though, this stripping serves two purposes, to feed the swarms appetite and to grow new units. The 'nids' can't dump and run and takeover the entire planet. The growing of their ships and armies isn't done on the service, all that has to come off the planet. So the Hive Fleet has to stick around or go hide and then come back when its time to strip the biomass. This really limits their growth, yes they can send troops ahead to attack a planet, but the multiplication factor doesn't happen until the Norn-queen inside the Hive Ships begin to build new creatures with the bio mass of the planet. Strictly speaking, they are limited to a few planets at a time, each taking 80-100 days.

Can you actually show any citation for the points here? The timeline I could see you providing info for, but beyond that I question your assumptions.

First there's the fact that a "large Hive Fleet" is going to be big in terms of space covered, they will be spread over multiple solar systems and not just multiple planets. That is part of why splinter fleets happen in the first place, a few ships either escape danger or get split off far enough and proceed to continue eating materials and atmosphere from worlds until they either grow to a Hive Fleet again or get killed. Lowering the number of ships means lowering the area they can cover but beyond that the time taken to strip a planet is something I'd need to see you prove is distinctly different.

Second the hive ships are supposed to bring biomass with them. The Tyranids are pretty big on reuse, it's why the final stages of an invasion are the remaining ground forces jumping into digestion pools and capillary towers bringing the biomass, atmosphere, and resources up to the ships. Yes biomass from a planet is important as it adds to the Hive Fleet's supplies and allows them to spawn new ships (again, from the fleet) but even without the fleet in orbit we see examples of Tyranid organisms still being plentiful on planets from the plant life to disorganized bioforms (Dawn of War 2 retribution has a rather nice example of this).

2. Norn-Queen these giant things are inside the Hive Ships and are the only thing that can produce more Nids. They are giant incubators and mold, create and tamper with genetic material to build the soldier/helpers that they want. The problem is, it is one hell of a process for them to get the final 'goods' they need to build more stuff. it might seem routine against idiot races they might face, but against a galactic race, that is time they might not have. Also, if a Norn Queen is killed, the Hive goes full retard, they start killing each other like savages. Captain Ventris was able to board a Hive Ship and poison her with a DNA strand. I mean..c'mon really? The entire Hive attack on Tarsis Ultra fell apart. This was the defeat of the largest Hive Fleet, the Leviathan. That was their destruction. Weak if you ask me.

Okay here's where you go fully dismissive. My responses will be a bit all over the place, having a pretty terrible day so my apologies.

First the part I italicized and bolded. You couldn't think of a different way to phrase this? Oh, my apologies again, I forgot we're operating off Space Battles Competence so anyone not acting with out of universe knowledge, aimbots/von neuman swarms, and in universe cheat codes is an idiot. You then proceed to say a "galactic race" Tyranids wouldn't be likely to pull that off. Okay here's the thing, Tyranids are a threat in universe for multiple reasons. The first is they are the closest thing to the definition of swarm faction that 40k has, when people go on about Orkz being a green tide or Necrons being an undying army that will just get back up again and keep marching neither of those compete with the attrition based warfare of the Tyranids. The second is that 40k travel and communication is generally not "cross the galaxy in under a day" fast and the factions Tyranids will be attacking are rarely if ever set up to counter a Tyranid invasion due to all the other wars going on and the shadow in the warp screwing up astropathic warnings and messing with warp travel. Third, that whole "swarm faction" thing carries over to their ships, their naval strategy can be described as "lose some ships closing in then rip them to bits with claws, render them into digestible material with bioplasma, or fill their hulls with rippers and gaunts and warriors, you have enough ships to pull it off".

Next is the whole Ventris and Leviathan thing. How big exactly do you think Hive Fleet Leviathan was? Uriel Ventris (who several 40k fans have some rather negative things to say about due to Graham McNeil's writing) went into a suicide mission that logically shouldn't have been pulled off that destabilized the Tyranids in that tendril (of which we only see one major hive ship remaining in that story). The effects of that story are centralized around Tarsis Ultra, where again there were surviving Tyranid Organisms and the world would eventually "die" to accelerated growth of the Tyranid plans, and ignores things like the Octarius War that happen due to a different tendril heading into a major Ork empire.

3. Shadow in the Warp, totally over played. If it was that detrimental, the Hive Fleets would not have been approachable and eventually killed off.

Could you actually explain what you mean by this? The Shadow in the Warp is definitely unpleasant and can have debilitating to lethal effects but no, it will not make the Tyranids invincible on its own.

4. Slow as hell FTL, but this is too obvious

Even in universe Tyranids are slow, it's one of the setting's justifications for there to be organized defenses against them. I don't see anyone arguing that.

5. There have been 3 Hive Fleets that came into the galaxy, Behemoth, Kraken, Leviathan. They have all been defeated by 'regular' combat. Not super weapons, or deus ex machines, just regular space/ground combat with a pinch of flavour. Leviathan fleet totally fell apart when a SINGLE Norn-Queen was killed, totally unacceptable for this level of wank.

Yet again you're underplaying Leviathan based off one story and calling some support of Tyranids in some other thread wank. Did you lose a vs debate and come here to complain or something?

All in all, in my OPINION. The Tyranids are not galactic threats. They are beaten too easily, and their Hive Mind is not....well its not that intelligent. It adapts very very well, but its 'target' acquisition for worlds is based on feedback from forward troops, almost instinctual. There doesn't seem to be a 'grand plan' that might be necessary for a full wankfest.

We don't actually know much about the Hive Mind. We don't know plans, we don't know reasons, what we know is the Tyranids are set on gathering biomass and growing.

Similarly I do not know that there is a point to this aside from complaining, the repeated use of "wank", a term this website uses to mean wrongfully overplaying a faction or character's abilities, makes me fairly certain you're upset about how they were shown in a vs debate. There are better ways to deal with that than coming to the general forums and writing a short rant about how in your opinion they aren't that great. Namely, show your evidence in the debate where you feel they're being unfairly favored to disprove the bias. If you do not have the means to disprove the bias I don't see what complaining about it here will change, and if you do I don't see why you can't do it there.

SarinIsLove · Apr 2, 2016

Tyranids are overrated, do you agree?

No.

white_rabbit · Apr 2, 2016

I'm sure many people do overrate the Nids. In a versus context, pretty much everything will often be overrated in some aspect or another.

It's all part and parcel of the generally expected level of casual discussion. Inaccuracies become exaggerated and so on and so forth, people repeat stuff without thinking about it, etc etc.

Along the way, you get some bloke at the other end, who isn't actually a great deal more accurate or factually inclined than the vague collection of people he's railing against, and we get a thread like this, with partly inaccurate, unreferenced blather, fighting against some vaguely defined statement of principle from someone, somewhere on the internet, who has gotten up his nose.

pdmasta said:
Hi,

I recently put up a thread about replicators being over rated, and I thought this was another one worthy of debate. Generally, the wankfest around Tyranids is that they multiply exponentially and their numbers are insane.

It isn't a particularly good sign that you start off griping about the "wankfest". It makes me think that you've been in a versus style thread, and gotten pissed off by someone, and you're going to fight back with a random thread.

It's a little difficult to parse exactly what the complaint is here. It looks like you've been set off by the Dalki-Prime invasion description, which makes a reference to Tyranid population growth becoming exponential after a certain point.

The term "wank" is a much abused phrase that seems to revolve around the perception that someone is inaccurately portraying a situation in favour of their chosen stance.

Given the situation described on Dalki is that of Tyranid organisms infiltrated via mycetic spore, and not a primary fleet, and the comment on exponential growth is from an observation 48 days after the first spore landing is detected, this is simply an accurate report on isolated Tyranid reproduction rates, in the context of a planetary invasions vanguard organisms.

You'll have to be more specific as to how this is "wank", and clarify what your definition of "wank" is for this thread, as well as what "insane" is supposted to be in this context.

I have been doing some research into our little friends and none of those statements are actually accurate. Here are a few things that demonstrate they are over rated.

Really, the first thing you should do is go back and do more research, but as a matter of fact, exponential growth has been observed in Tyranids. The exact nature of this was quantified in terms of a doubling of active tyranid population every 2.5 days. Obviously this is quite a crude measurement, given that a Tyranid invasion is strictly speaking, a hostile incursion by an alien biology, including microscopic invaders, but you'll have to explain why you object to this particular evidence.

Here is the quote.

TYRANID PLANETARY ASSIMILATION: DALKI-PRIME

Day 48: IG forces are sorely pressed at all junctures, field reports indicate exponential growth in the numbers of Tyranid creatures. (Rough estimates indicate doubling every 2.5 days.)

1. It takes them 80-100 days to strip the planet of all usable molecules for bio reproduction. Based on what I have researched, this 80-100 day figure was for large Hive Fleets, not a small broken fleet of 15 Hive Ships. It is unclear if small hive fleets can strip a planet. The point being though, this stripping serves two purposes, to feed the swarms appetite and to grow new units. The 'nids' can't dump and run and takeover the entire planet.

I'm sorry to say, this is all very vague and incoherent again.

Firstly, the Tyranid fleet is described as follows.

Day 50: All psychic contact with Dalki-Prime is cut off by the overpowering presence of the Tyranid hive fleet which drops from warp space around the planet. Preliminary estimates place the numbers of space borne creatures at 1.46 billion. All escape attempts from this point on are intercepted and destroyed.

It is unclear what percentage of the space going organisms are actual ships, because the line is quite blurred here. Thousands and millions of ships have been described in Tyranid fleets before, but this analysis is purported to be a lot more precise, as it is in-universe analysis from a Astartes scientist. It seems likely that all critters are counted or estimated, be they spaceborne protozoa, or hundred kilometre Norn Ship.

I don't know where the "small broken fleet of 15 ships" came from, but I presume its what spoilt your day in some other thread. It isn't unclear at all if a small fleet can strip a planet, as defined by the quote from the Nid codex below, they absolutely can. The difference is surely one of time and intent.

"Splinter fleets comprise as few as a dozen Hive Ships, but even a dozen ships are more than capable of overrunning a world and harvesting its biomass to become a yet greater thread. Some have become so large as to be classified as a new, distinct Hive fleet. Indeed, Hive Fleet Magalodon is grown from one of Kraken's sundered tendrils and to this day continues to ravage the Imperium."

Not only can a small hivefleet of a dozen ships consume a world, but Codex Tyranids (5th edition) cites the example of the Ghorala swarm, which came back from almost complete destruction, and was reduced to ground troops only, to defeat the local orks, consume the planet, and in the process, spawn a replacement Hive ship fleet.

I don't know what "dump and run" means. You'll have to clarify this.

The growing of their ships and armies isn't done on the service, all that has to come off the planet. So the Hive Fleet has to stick around or go hide and then come back when its time to strip the biomass. This really limits their growth, yes they can send troops ahead to attack a planet, but the multiplication factor doesn't happen until the Norn-queen inside the Hive Ships begin to build new creatures with the bio mass of the planet. Strictly speaking, they are limited to a few planets at a time, each taking 80-100 days.

This appears to be some sort of misconception. Tyranid vessels can, and do produce warriors on board, as well as carrying hibernating individuals. Tyranid warriors are described as being transported in the tens of thousands, the "sleeping officers" of future swarms. Tervigons remain aware during interstellar transportation, and act as first responder.

As far as the "multiplication factor" goes, I presume you are refering to the exponential growth comment? I'd point out , somewhat to the detriment of your entire argument, that exponential growth is observed several days before the Hive fleet actually arrives in orbit around Dalki-Prime.

Norn Queens are not required for the production of new Tyranid macro-organisms (i.e. larger than microscopic). Also the actual consumption phase of the Dalki-Prime example doesn't start until the Tyranid fleet actually arrives.

Day 51: Primary consumption of all biomass on Dalki-Prime commences with little resistance. Brood ships land on the planet and release the Ripper larvae, billions upon billions of them. These voracious creatures spread out, divesting the planet of all organic material and returning to the reclamation pools to deposit the nutrient broth. Capillary towers relay the material to orbit. Brood ships periodically return to orbit and unload this material to the great brood factories and feeder ships. Surface and aerial mobile lifeforms which do not succumb to the spore clouds are hunted and eliminated in the initial stages. This continues for approximately 8-10 days non-stop, accomplished primarily by Gaunt species, the carcasses left to the Rippers and the spores. These hunter swarms return to the Rippers to obtain regurgitated digested food.

Then it specifically notes that the Hive ships are leaving by day 80.

Day 80: Ripper swarms, having systematically divested the land masses and basolithic planes of soil and dermis, board the brood ships and return to space. Once this has been completed the huge hive ships descend into the upper atmosphere. These creatures, which resemble primitive radiant life forms with long tentacles, then drop into the atmosphere and begin removing it. As the atmospheric pressure is reduced, the water of the oceans begins to evaporate and it too is vacuumed up. As the tectonic plates begin to move due to the shift in planetary pressures caused by the removal of the vast oceans, volcanic activity increases dramatically. Devoid of the huge weight of the oceans many areas rupture, spewing hot gases and lava onto the surface. As the hive ships take the last remnants from the planet, they retreat into the warp leaving the barren sphere in its death throes.

The graphic that accompanies this entry notes that the planet is at this point, 97% divested of its usable material.

Day 100 is represented as the point at which the Imperial Navy arrives. Not the point at which the planet has been consumed. The Tyranid are already gone.

So your conclusion of it taking 80-100 days is predicated on the requirement that the Tyranids must only follow up one planet at a time, and that they can only harvest material from planets, that they can only send vanguard organisms to one planet at a time, and that we must count from an arbitrary point, as opposed to the primary consumption phase of an invasion, when a Tyranid fleet arrives in orbit.

In other words, you've typed up a right load of complete bollocks. From the example you've chosen yourself, but apparently never read, the Tyranids are actually consuming the planet within 30-50 days, with the high end number being very unlikely, given the planet is a volcanic mess by day 80.

2. Norn-Queen these giant things are inside the Hive Ships and are the only thing that can produce more Nids. They are giant incubators and mold, create and tamper with genetic material to build the soldier/helpers that they want.

I'm going to be blunt, this is more fucking nonsense.

Norn Queens are not the only things that can produce more Tyranids. If you'd paid attention to the Dalki-Prime incident which you've clearly seen , because its where you got your 80-100 day number from, you would have seen that the dreaded exponential population growth occurred before the fleet even arrived. Clearly a Vanguard ship had passed by, but they don't carry Norn queens.

Also the Dalki reference specifically notes that more than a hundred nids are counted around the site of the Mycetic spore landing. Unless this spore was some sort of mega-spore, they typically have not carried more than two dozen nids, suggesting that reproduction began almost instantly.

Brood nests, referenced during the Anphelion project, are produced from single Tyranid spores, and can produce hundreds of organisms rapidly.

Within the heat of the Brood nest Tyranid creatures grow at a terrifying rate and gestation periods are short. In a matter of just a few days a brood nest will be packed with fully grown monsters. They may then wait in hibernation for months until needed, but once born they are instantly under the Hive Mind's control.

Codex Tyranids 2nd Edition also made specific reference to Vanguard organisms reproducing on their own, specifically Hormagaunts are noted to lay eggs, and can in some instances, overrun entire planets solely with vast swarms of Gaunts.

In the very book you reference(Warriors of Ultramar) the Gargoyle brood mothers produce thousands and thousands of gargoyles as a Tyranid strategy, all without a norn queen in sight.

There are probably dozens more examples to prove you are utterly incorrect, but I think this pretty much covers it.

The problem is, it is one hell of a process for them to get the final 'goods' they need to build more stuff. it might seem routine against idiot races they might face, but against a galactic race, that is time they might not have. Also, if a Norn Queen is killed, the Hive goes full retard, they start killing each other like savages. Captain Ventris was able to board a Hive Ship and poison her with a DNA strand. I mean..c'mon really? The entire Hive attack on Tarsis Ultra fell apart. This was the defeat of the largest Hive Fleet, the Leviathan. That was their destruction. Weak if you ask me.

I don't quite know why its "one hell of a process", but I guess we've already learned that you're a bit lacking in the research side of things. If you can clarify, I'll address it, otherwise I'll assume its another misconception based on flawed analysis and limited information.

Speaking of which, the Tarsis Ultra example is specifically that of a Tyranid Norn queen being infected with a targeted biological agent on the behest of the greatest living expert on Tyranids in the Imperium. They also needed to kill the Hive Tyrant leading the assault on the ground, and then destroy the Norn queen with a toxin that would specifically cause the extended and terminal mutations, and Codex Tyranids notes that it had an effect even beyond its anticipated results, but that any attempt to replicate the success of this approach has failed.

So the basis for your assertion is flawed. Please redraft it with the correct information.

This was the defeat of a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. Not the entire fleet. I should mention that your assertion that a Tyranid fleet can only attack a single planet at a time is also crushed into oblivion by the fact that Fleets are repeatedly described as consisting of many smaller fleets of greatly variable size and composition.

At this point, even Behemoth possesses multiple splinter fleets, the shattered escapees of its destruction at the Battle of Maccrage having regenerated into full fledged splinter fleets of their own.

To elaborate, it is difficult to accept that Hive Fleet Leviathan has been destroyed, when not only does Warriors of Ultramar note it was simply a tendril of the fleet, but Hive Fleet Leviathan has been merrily munching its way through star systems years afterwards. The most recent victim being the Cryptus system, a heavily fortified Imperial system defended by millions of Imperial troops, including more than a company of Blood Angels, as well as loosely allied Necron Dynastic forces.

3. Shadow in the Warp, totally over played. If it was that detrimental, the Hive Fleets would not have been approachable and eventually killed off.

Without knowing the context of your complaint, it is virtually impossible to address this. In other words, what degree of detriment, in clear times, are you contesting ?

It is worth noting though, that as of the most recent Eldar engagements with Hive Fleet Leviathan, the fleets of Iyanden are forced to utilise new forms of Infinity circuit based shielding as well as Ghost Warrior crewed ships and fighters, as the psychic emanations of the Tyranid fleets are now so dangerous that they not only interfere with the psychic technology of the Eldar, and cause generally detrimental effects, but they can actually kill Eldar crews which approach too closely.

4. Slow as hell FTL, but this is too obvious

Is it? Have you quantified it in comparison with a specific example to make this judgement? If so, what is the example?

5. There have been 3 Hive Fleets that came into the galaxy, Behemoth, Kraken, Leviathan. They have all been defeated by 'regular' combat. Not super weapons, or deus ex machines, just regular space/ground combat with a pinch of flavour. Leviathan fleet totally fell apart when a SINGLE Norn-Queen was killed, totally unacceptable for this level of wank.

Firstly, this is flat out wrong. There have been three fleets that are more notable than others due to size, tactics or historic significance. Behemoth is the one that gave the Nids their name. Various codexes and novels have detailed the presence of Tyranid fleets prior to it, and beyond the Kraken and Leviathan fleets.

For example, Kraken was not the first Tyranid fleet to be fought by Iyanden, this honour belonged to Hive Fleet Naga, which destroyed merely dozens of star systems, before being destroyed by a combined Eldar force. (Codex Tyranids 5th edition)

As far as the defeat of Behemoth. The primary fleet of Behemoth was defeated in space by a combined Astartes/Imperial Navy fleet, ending with a cataclysmic warp drive event that destroyed the heart of the Tyranid fleet.

So at first glance, I'm pretty happy with this one as an example of Deus Ex Machina, not all Warp drive explosions/reactions are quite that dramatic, or "successfully" employed as suicide weapons. Its pretty clear the Imperium, despite outmatching the Nids in space, would probably have lost that fight if the Dominus Astra hadn't gone on its suicide run.

Hive Fleet Kraken is "defeated" , as much as a fleet which is still apparently alive and kicking and has grandkids is "defeated", in two major engagements. The battle of Ichar IV, and the battle of Iyanden. Codex Nids 5th edition notes that if either of these battles had been won by the Nids, Kraken would have snowballed into an unstoppable force.

Ichar IV and the surrounding engagements is "won" by a massive space engagement, and a ground campaign that sees the lost of two entire Space Marine chapters almost in their entirety, and the usual unspecified millions of troops, billions of people dead.

Iyanden results in the loss of billions of Eldar, and the near destruction of the largest Craftworld in the galaxy. As far as Deus Ex Machina and super weapons go, the fleet is destroyed after the lost son of Iyanden, Admiral Yriel, returns of from permanent exile, to rescue the people who threw his arse out, and the Super-Tyrant that could not be killed by any conventional weapon was killed when Yriel picked up a spear that killed anybody that picked it up, and destroyed something that was apparently unkillable in single combat.

So yeah, totally conventional, non deus ex machina events, that turned out to just be victories against major hive fleets, which promptly split up into lots of little fleets, all with the potential to exponentially grow and invade other worlds.

Which they do. (Codex Tyranids)

You'll note I haven't referenced Hive Fleet Leviathan, because Leviathan hasn't been destroyed.

All in all, in my OPINION. The Tyranids are not galactic threats. They are beaten too easily, and their Hive Mind is not....well its not that intelligent. It adapts very very well, but its 'target' acquisition for worlds is based on feedback from forward troops, almost instinctual. There doesn't seem to be a 'grand plan' that might be necessary for a full wankfest.

I try to speak from the facts. I don't know what a galactic threat is supposed to be. Your assessment of how easily the nids are beaten is based on unclear facts, and when you do cite something, you've demonstrated an unerring ability to be utterly incorrect, so you can see that it might be difficult to work with your assessments of a situation?

Similarly your assessment of the intelligence of the Hive Mind has little factual backing, and your comments on target acquisition are confusing, and appear to be based on some unknown definition of "wankfest" and the requirement for there to be a grand plan before something can be ultimately threatening in some respect.

All in all, in my opinion, which I've done my best to explain and justify in terms of the information available.

You haven't done a lot of research.
You don't really understand the information you have looked at.
Your conclusions don't have any logical connection to facts, for the most part.
You're probably upset about some conversation you've had elsewhere.

For that last point, as I said, its perfectly possible the Tyranid advocates were full of shit in these theorised debates you've been observing, but you certainly haven't revealed a systematic overrating of the Tyranids based on your comments in this thread.

You've just emphasised that sometimes, people have an inaccurate assessment of their personal knowledge of a topic.

But I would agree again, that like everything, the Tyranids are overrated, somewhere, on the internet, by somebody.

This fact unfortunately doesn't do much for your own particular failings.

I hope that helps.

Shifter · Apr 2, 2016

I have to begrudgingly agree with OP on at least one major count. Any hive mind that willingly not only breeds Pyrovores in noteworthy numbers in the first place, but also continues to use them into the long term is clearly suffering from some extreme form of dementia.

c'tan cat · Apr 2, 2016

Shifter said:
I have to begrudgingly agree with OP on at least one major count. Any hive mind that willingly not only breeds Pyrovores in noteworthy numbers in the first place, but also continues to use them into the long term is clearly suffering from some extreme form of dementia.

You, sir, clearly do not understand the glory that is a hilariously designed artillery-turtle. Pokemon fans probably don't have to put up with this since their turtles shoot water.

white_rabbit · Apr 2, 2016

pdmasta said:
we dont really know if they consumed multiple galaxies, the only proof is that they approach from different angles. Big deal, that doesn't imply anything

I missed this from my first reply. I fear you may need to hit the old research books again.

From all the way back in White Dwarf 145.

White Dwarf 145 by Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson
The Tyranid hive mind hungers for fresh genetic material, gene-stocks that can be used to create new bio-construct creatures and organic machine-slaves. Their own galaxy is exhausted, its creatures long since absorbed into the hive mind, their flesh turned to unfathomable purposes or discarded as useless. With its billions of humans and countless other creatures the Imperium offers the Tyranids an almost inexhaustible stock of flesh and genes which will invigorate the hive mind and enable it to embody itself in new forms.

Humanity will be absorbed, broken into strands of DNA to be used to create a new generation of bio-technology. It will be the death of the human race, but to the Tyranid hive mind this is of no more consequence than the mining of ores or the harvesting of crops. For the Tyranids have no sense of pity or compassion, they are as utterly beyond human understanding as humans are beyond their comprehension. To them man is just an inefficient and primitive lifeform, something to be consumed and turned to a higher purpose. Such has been the fate of a thousand galaxies, of millions of intelligent species, since time immemorial.

You might not know that the Nids have consumed multiple galaxies, and maybe nobody has ever quoted specific information for you, but its difficult to argue with an omniscient observer perspective like this. (you researched stuff before making this thread though, right?)

What you can do is argue that it doesn't really offer a great deal of tangible information, but that isn't what you are doing.

Also...

Advanced Space Crusade
" Where a man sees life, the Hive Mind sees only something to be consumed. Such has been the fate of a thousand galaxies, of millions of intelligent species, since time immemorial."

40k Rulebook 5th Edition
" Behind the Hive fleets lie the barren husks of a dozen galaxies already consumed "

Bit of a downgrade from a thousand to a dozen, but I guess its still a perfectly appropriate counter to your claim.

phazon · Apr 2, 2016

Well, for being capable of eating galaxies, they don't look all that unstoppable. Then again, galaxies are big. We can consider 2 main scenarios (both extreme interpretations of the lore)

1) The hive-fleets are all the tyranids. In that case, you are right. They may be able to consume thousands, or hundreds of thousands of worlds. Still irrelevant, and will be eventually defeated. They don't show major strategical advances beyond troop composition, warfare tactics and going in the general direction of the astronomicon.

2) The hive-fleets are scouting forces, representing a tiny fraction of the total tyranid numbers. In the second case, you are wrong. There is a point when simple swarm tactics are enougth to overwhelm your enemies, and the tyranids have those forces. Any strategic advantage the milky way races have would be negated by an increasingly strong shadow in the warp, and a simple redirection of troops would overwhelm any single world, like holy terra.

pdmasta · Apr 2, 2016

white_rabbit said:
I'm sure many people do overrate the Nids. In a versus context, pretty much everything will often be overrated in some aspect or another.

It's all part and parcel of the generally expected level of casual discussion. Inaccuracies become exaggerated and so on and so forth, people repeat stuff without thinking about it, etc etc.

Along the way, you get some bloke at the other end, who isn't actually a great deal more accurate or factually inclined than the vague collection of people he's railing against, and we get a thread like this, with partly inaccurate, unreferenced blather, fighting against some vaguely defined statement of principle from someone, somewhere on the internet, who has gotten up his nose.

It isn't a particularly good sign that you start off griping about the "wankfest". It makes me think that you've been in a versus style thread, and gotten pissed off by someone, and you're going to fight back with a random thread.

It's a little difficult to parse exactly what the complaint is here. It looks like you've been set off by the Dalki-Prime invasion description, which makes a reference to Tyranid population growth becoming exponential after a certain point.

The term "wank" is a much abused phrase that seems to revolve around the perception that someone is inaccurately portraying a situation in favour of their chosen stance.

Given the situation described on Dalki is that of Tyranid organisms infiltrated via mycetic spore, and not a primary fleet, and the comment on exponential growth is from an observation 48 days after the first spore landing is detected, this is simply an accurate report on isolated Tyranid reproduction rates, in the context of a planetary invasions vanguard organisms.

You'll have to be more specific as to how this is "wank", and clarify what your definition of "wank" is for this thread, as well as what "insane" is supposted to be in this context.

Really, the first thing you should do is go back and do more research, but as a matter of fact, exponential growth has been observed in Tyranids. The exact nature of this was quantified in terms of a doubling of active tyranid population every 2.5 days. Obviously this is quite a crude measurement, given that a Tyranid invasion is strictly speaking, a hostile incursion by an alien biology, including microscopic invaders, but you'll have to explain why you object to this particular evidence.

Here is the quote.

I'm sorry to say, this is all very vague and incoherent again.

Firstly, the Tyranid fleet is described as follows.

It is unclear what percentage of the space going organisms are actual ships, because the line is quite blurred here. Thousands and millions of ships have been described in Tyranid fleets before, but this analysis is purported to be a lot more precise, as it is in-universe analysis from a Astartes scientist. It seems likely that all critters are counted or estimated, be they spaceborne protozoa, or hundred kilometre Norn Ship.

I don't know where the "small broken fleet of 15 ships" came from, but I presume its what spoilt your day in some other thread. It isn't unclear at all if a small fleet can strip a planet, as defined by the quote from the Nid codex below, they absolutely can. The difference is surely one of time and intent.

Not only can a small hivefleet of a dozen ships consume a world, but Codex Tyranids (5th edition) cites the example of the Ghorala swarm, which came back from almost complete destruction, and was reduced to ground troops only, to defeat the local orks, consume the planet, and in the process, spawn a replacement Hive ship fleet.

I don't know what "dump and run" means. You'll have to clarify this.

This appears to be some sort of misconception. Tyranid vessels can, and do produce warriors on board, as well as carrying hibernating individuals. Tyranid warriors are described as being transported in the tens of thousands, the "sleeping officers" of future swarms. Tervigons remain aware during interstellar transportation, and act as first responder.

As far as the "multiplication factor" goes, I presume you are refering to the exponential growth comment? I'd point out , somewhat to the detriment of your entire argument, that exponential growth is observed several days before the Hive fleet actually arrives in orbit around Dalki-Prime.

Norn Queens are not required for the production of new Tyranid macro-organisms (i.e. larger than microscopic). Also the actual consumption phase of the Dalki-Prime example doesn't start until the Tyranid fleet actually arrives.

Then it specifically notes that the Hive ships are leaving by day 80.

The graphic that accompanies this entry notes that the planet is at this point, 97% divested of its usable material.

Day 100 is represented as the point at which the Imperial Navy arrives. Not the point at which the planet has been consumed. The Tyranid are already gone.

So your conclusion of it taking 80-100 days is predicated on the requirement that the Tyranids must only follow up one planet at a time, and that they can only harvest material from planets, that they can only send vanguard organisms to one planet at a time, and that we must count from an arbitrary point, as opposed to the primary consumption phase of an invasion, when a Tyranid fleet arrives in orbit.

In other words, you've typed up a right load of complete bollocks. From the example you've chosen yourself, but apparently never read, the Tyranids are actually consuming the planet within 30-50 days, with the high end number being very unlikely, given the planet is a volcanic mess by day 80.

I'm going to be blunt, this is more fucking nonsense.

Norn Queens are not the only things that can produce more Tyranids. If you'd paid attention to the Dalki-Prime incident which you've clearly seen , because its where you got your 80-100 day number from, you would have seen that the dreaded exponential population growth occurred before the fleet even arrived. Clearly a Vanguard ship had passed by, but they don't carry Norn queens.

Also the Dalki reference specifically notes that more than a hundred nids are counted around the site of the Mycetic spore landing. Unless this spore was some sort of mega-spore, they typically have not carried more than two dozen nids, suggesting that reproduction began almost instantly.

Brood nests, referenced during the Anphelion project, are produced from single Tyranid spores, and can produce hundreds of organisms rapidly.

Codex Tyranids 2nd Edition also made specific reference to Vanguard organisms reproducing on their own, specifically Hormagaunts are noted to lay eggs, and can in some instances, overrun entire planets solely with vast swarms of Gaunts.

In the very book you reference(Warriors of Ultramar) the Gargoyle brood mothers produce thousands and thousands of gargoyles as a Tyranid strategy, all without a norn queen in sight.

There are probably dozens more examples to prove you are utterly incorrect, but I think this pretty much covers it.

I don't quite know why its "one hell of a process", but I guess we've already learned that you're a bit lacking in the research side of things. If you can clarify, I'll address it, otherwise I'll assume its another misconception based on flawed analysis and limited information.

Speaking of which, the Tarsis Ultra example is specifically that of a Tyranid Norn queen being infected with a targeted biological agent on the behest of the greatest living expert on Tyranids in the Imperium. They also needed to kill the Hive Tyrant leading the assault on the ground, and then destroy the Norn queen with a toxin that would specifically cause the extended and terminal mutations, and Codex Tyranids notes that it had an effect even beyond its anticipated results, but that any attempt to replicate the success of this approach has failed.

So the basis for your assertion is flawed. Please redraft it with the correct information.

This was the defeat of a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan. Not the entire fleet. I should mention that your assertion that a Tyranid fleet can only attack a single planet at a time is also crushed into oblivion by the fact that Fleets are repeatedly described as consisting of many smaller fleets of greatly variable size and composition.

At this point, even Behemoth possesses multiple splinter fleets, the shattered escapees of its destruction at the Battle of Maccrage having regenerated into full fledged splinter fleets of their own.

To elaborate, it is difficult to accept that Hive Fleet Leviathan has been destroyed, when not only does Warriors of Ultramar note it was simply a tendril of the fleet, but Hive Fleet Leviathan has been merrily munching its way through star systems years afterwards. The most recent victim being the Cryptus system, a heavily fortified Imperial system defended by millions of Imperial troops, including more than a company of Blood Angels, as well as loosely allied Necron Dynastic forces.

Without knowing the context of your complaint, it is virtually impossible to address this. In other words, what degree of detriment, in clear times, are you contesting ?

It is worth noting though, that as of the most recent Eldar engagements with Hive Fleet Leviathan, the fleets of Iyanden are forced to utilise new forms of Infinity circuit based shielding as well as Ghost Warrior crewed ships and fighters, as the psychic emanations of the Tyranid fleets are now so dangerous that they not only interfere with the psychic technology of the Eldar, and cause generally detrimental effects, but they can actually kill Eldar crews which approach too closely.

Is it? Have you quantified it in comparison with a specific example to make this judgement? If so, what is the example?

Firstly, this is flat out wrong. There have been three fleets that are more notable than others due to size, tactics or historic significance. Behemoth is the one that gave the Nids their name. Various codexes and novels have detailed the presence of Tyranid fleets prior to it, and beyond the Kraken and Leviathan fleets.

For example, Kraken was not the first Tyranid fleet to be fought by Iyanden, this honour belonged to Hive Fleet Naga, which destroyed merely dozens of star systems, before being destroyed by a combined Eldar force. (Codex Tyranids 5th edition)

As far as the defeat of Behemoth. The primary fleet of Behemoth was defeated in space by a combined Astartes/Imperial Navy fleet, ending with a cataclysmic warp drive event that destroyed the heart of the Tyranid fleet.

So at first glance, I'm pretty happy with this one as an example of Deus Ex Machina, not all Warp drive explosions/reactions are quite that dramatic, or "successfully" employed as suicide weapons. Its pretty clear the Imperium, despite outmatching the Nids in space, would probably have lost that fight if the Dominus Astra hadn't gone on its suicide run.

Hive Fleet Kraken is "defeated" , as much as a fleet which is still apparently alive and kicking and has grandkids is "defeated", in two major engagements. The battle of Ichar IV, and the battle of Iyanden. Codex Nids 5th edition notes that if either of these battles had been won by the Nids, Kraken would have snowballed into an unstoppable force.

Ichar IV and the surrounding engagements is "won" by a massive space engagement, and a ground campaign that sees the lost of two entire Space Marine chapters almost in their entirety, and the usual unspecified millions of troops, billions of people dead.

Iyanden results in the loss of billions of Eldar, and the near destruction of the largest Craftworld in the galaxy. As far as Deus Ex Machina and super weapons go, the fleet is destroyed after the lost son of Iyanden, Admiral Yriel, returns of from permanent exile, to rescue the people who threw his arse out, and the Super-Tyrant that could not be killed by any conventional weapon was killed when Yriel picked up a spear that killed anybody that picked it up, and destroyed something that was apparently unkillable in single combat.

So yeah, totally conventional, non deus ex machina events, that turned out to just be victories against major hive fleets, which promptly split up into lots of little fleets, all with the potential to exponentially grow and invade other worlds.

Which they do. (Codex Tyranids)

You'll note I haven't referenced Hive Fleet Leviathan, because Leviathan hasn't been destroyed.

I try to speak from the facts. I don't know what a galactic threat is supposed to be. Your assessment of how easily the nids are beaten is based on unclear facts, and when you do cite something, you've demonstrated an unerring ability to be utterly incorrect, so you can that it might be difficult to work with your assessments of a situation?

Similarly your assessment of the intelligence of the Hive Mind has little factual backing, and your comments on target acquisition are confusing, and appear to be based on some unknown definition of "wankfest" and the requirement for there to be a grand plan before something can be ultimately threatening in some respect.

All in all, in my opinion, which I've done my best to explain and justify in terms of the information available.

You haven't done a lot of research.
You don't really understand the information you have looked at.
Your conclusions don't have any logical connection to facts, for the most part.
You're probably upset about some conversation you've had elsewhere.

For that last point, as I said, its perfectly possible the Tyranid advocates were full of shit in these theorised debates you've been observing, but you certainly haven't revealed a systematic overrating of the Tyranids based on your comments in this thread.

You've just emphasised that sometimes, people have an inaccurate assessment of their personal knowledge of a topic.

But I would agree again, that like everything, the Tyranids are overrated, somewhere, on the internet, by somebody.

This fact unfortunately doesn't do much for your own particular failings.

I hope that helps.

a very well thought out response, seems i did not know as much as I needed too, i do have a few questions.

1. How have they not taken over the galaxy? If their Hive fleets have 1.5 billion of them, it just seems silly that they can't win

2. In the lore, is there any form of nano scale weapons that can attack them at the cellular level? Does that exist?

3. If a hive fleet attacks a planet and is unsuccessful, they wouldn't be able to go to the next one and conquer it would they? I mean...if they lose all their bugs on the surface, they need those for the next planet. It just seems its all or nothing, if they don't conquer it, they have blown their load..kinda deal?

Satnav · Apr 2, 2016

pdmasta said:
a very well thought out response, seems i did not know as much as I needed too, i do have a few questions.

1. How have they not taken over the galaxy? If their Hive fleets have 1.5 billion of them, it just seems silly that they can't win

2. In the lore, is there any form of nano scale weapons that can attack them at the cellular level? Does that exist?

3. If a hive fleet attacks a planet and is unsuccessful, they wouldn't be able to go to the next one and conquer it would they? I mean...if they lose all their bugs on the surface, they need those for the next planet. It just seems its all or nothing, if they don't conquer it, they have blown their load..kinda deal?

1. There's also billions of Orks, Necrons, and various other polities who can also absorb their attacks. Keep in mind that 'billions' of Tyranid organisms in a fleet will also include fighter-like creatures and much smaller critters than just the hive ships.

2. There's Imperial bio-weapons that aren't usually successful, if you're thinking of Grey Goo than the closest is probably Necron scarabs, haven't seen anything that details their effectiveness on Nids.

3. Sort of. Hive Fleets can attempt to recoup their losses, and they don't necessarily expend all on biomass for one single planet unless they have to.

Negadarkwing · Apr 2, 2016

Shifter said:
I have to begrudgingly agree with OP on at least one major count. Any hive mind that willingly not only breeds Pyrovores in noteworthy numbers in the first place, but also continues to use them into the long term is clearly suffering from some extreme form of dementia.

c'tan cat said:
You, sir, clearly do not understand the glory that is a hilariously designed artillery-turtle. Pokemon fans probably don't have to put up with this since their turtles shoot water.

Hey, Blastoise don't explode, taking out huge chunks of their own allies when hit. Now a giant artillery turtle is not a bad concept. But with that fatal flaw...

Something else to remember is that it's much harder for the Nids to have a phyric victory. The get back resources easier by just eating their dead, and they replenish their numbers faster than any other faction can. A new batch of Gaunts will be born and killing far faster than even a new Orc will emerge, to say nothing of what it takes for a faction like the Eldar.

white_rabbit · Apr 3, 2016

pdmasta said:
a very well thought out response, seems i did not know as much as I needed too, i do have a few questions.

1. How have they not taken over the galaxy? If their Hive fleets have 1.5 billion of them, it just seems silly that they can't win

Galaxies are big? The 40k one also happens to be occupied by a large number of heavily militarised factions. 1.5 billion space going organisms doesn't translate to 1.5 billion hive ships, and the Imperial navy can take on Tyranid ships at a favorable exchange rate, as can the Eldar, and presumably the Orks.

2. In the lore, is there any form of nano scale weapons that can attack them at the cellular level? Does that exist?

I suppose this depends on what you mean by "nano-scale weapons". Various versions of viral plagues and engineered omnophagic weapons have been used to varying degrees of success against the Tyranids. I don't immediately recall any example of say, a nano-destroyer cloud being used on Nids successfully, because that sort of thing generally doesn't come up. Necron and Eldar and sometimes the Imperium have access to that sort of tech.

It's worth remembering that the Nids would appear to be capable of design work at a nano-scale, as they have many forms of weaponised pathogen, including viruses, which can be nano-metre scale. They also produce phage cells, which appear to take on the role of multi-purpose biological nano-tech, serving as digestive systems, offensive weapons and immune systems.

There doesnt' seem to be direct evidence of their capabilities versus enemy "tiny-tech", although they are noted to have been used to combat "rampant ork spore production" when the Nids fight orks on a large scale, and the Dark Eldar, who explicitly use targeted nano-technology as a counter to exotic plagues and weaponry, including the glass plague, which rapid transmutes victims into glass sculptures, are unable to manipulate the "strange matter" of Tyranid biology.

3. If a hive fleet attacks a planet and is unsuccessful, they wouldn't be able to go to the next one and conquer it would they? I mean...if they lose all their bugs on the surface, they need those for the next planet. It just seems its all or nothing, if they don't conquer it, they have blown their load..kinda deal?

This would seem to be entirely dependent on a specific scenario. Generally speaking, the Nids aren't known to give up, although there are several examples of Hive fleets withdrawing as part of a strategy to lure defenders away, or escape from total destruction.

There are also examples of Nid fleets being exhausted by prolonged conflict where they have been prevented from gathering resources, particularly minor fleets. Its worth remembering that technically speaking, resources can be garnered from more than just planets, Tyranids could technically seed a lifeless world with their ecology and extract materials into usable form that way. They aren't forced to hybridise an existing biosphere given their capabilities.

I guess it'd taste pretty bland though.

Unhappy Anchovy · Apr 3, 2016

I would tend to agree that the Tyranids are overrated, both in terms of relative galactic power in 40k and, which is more important, as a fictional construct. I believe I am in the small and unpopular category, on SB, of people who think that the zerg are a better-constructed race of hive-mind alien vaguely insectoid killers than the Tyranids.

(Well, okay, the Tyranids are sometimes more dinosaur-like or even more crustacean-like, but then, this doesn't really look that much like a bug.)

white_rabbit · Apr 3, 2016

Unhappy Anchovy said:
I would tend to agree that the Tyranids are overrated, both in terms of relative galactic power in 40k and, which is more important, as a fictional construct. I believe I am in the small and unpopular category, on SB, of people who think that the zerg are a better-constructed race of hive-mind alien vaguely insectoid killers than the Tyranids.

(Well, okay, the Tyranids are sometimes more dinosaur-like or even more crustacean-like, but then, this doesn't really look that much like a bug.)

I think the Zerg offer a more relatable sense of personality than the Tyranids. Even before the SC2 proliferation of individual zerg characters, the Cerebrates and the Overmind, as well as Kerrigan, allowed for you to engage with them as characters, and although it wasn't really given the depth I would have enjoyed before the Cerebrates were all bumped off or forgotten, there was as much individuality in the swarm's leadership,as there was with the Protoss or the Terrans. (maybe not in looks..)

The Nids are in a similar situation to the Old Necrons, where they are mostly a fairly unrelatable, on any emotional or empathetic sense, monstrous force, that is defined in their contrast with the heroics required to fight them. I think this might have been why things like Old One Eye, the Red Terror etc were created, to address this lack of individual personality to represent the player on the table-top, and to generally allow for things to be more customisable.

Obviously "better constructed" is purely subjective, so its difficult to address that without some specificity.

I think both races, visually, combine a huge number of influences. The Zerg particularly are supposed to have the Swarm as a representation of a stripped down, more insectile/exoskeletal look, with the Primals drawing more from mammalian and reptilian influences.

I think the Gothic and Eldritch book has a concept piece that brings home some of the background for the Tyranid look, in that its a Tyranid beast/Daemon concept, as the Nids draw from both a bio-mechanical horror/dinosaur composited with bug look, and a fiendish alien/daemon warrior aesthetic, which came back into the fore with the return of the 2nd edition profiles for Warriors, Guard and Tyrants.

Unhappy Anchovy · Apr 3, 2016

white_rabbit said:
I think the Zerg offer a more relatable sense of personality than the Tyranids. Even before the SC2 proliferation of individual zerg characters, the Cerebrates and the Overmind, as well as Kerrigan, allowed for you to engage with them as characters, and although it wasn't really given the depth I would have enjoyed before the Cerebrates were all bumped off or forgotten, there was as much individuality in the swarm's leadership,as there was with the Protoss or the Terrans. (maybe not in looks..)

Yes, that's the sort of thing I have in mind. The zerg are more than just an incomprehensible force aiming to consume everything: they have leaders, those leaders have personalities and rivalries, and they also have proximate goals that they can work towards. It would be wrong to say they're humanised as such, since the Overmind and the cerebrates are still very much non-human, but I feel like there's more to work with. If I collect a Tyranid army in 40k, my opportunities for storytelling are very limited, since no Tyranids have personalities, and the Tyranids in general don't have coherent short-term agendas. With the zerg, it feels more possible to create a distinctive sub-faction, in the form of a brood with its own leader (whether cerebrate or broodmother), with its own style and with its own goals.

On top of that, I feel like the zerg can be used for more interesting stories even from external, non-zerg perspectives. The fact that zerg can be controlled by non-zerg enables some new and dramatic types of campaigns (Brood War, both Enslavers campaigns) that you just can't imagine with Tyranids. But you don't have to focus on those stories if you don't want. The zerg can still be the mysterious force of utter consumption that cannot be manipulated or reasoned with if that's what you need.

Obviously "better constructed" is purely subjective, so its difficult to address that without some specificity.

It was probably a bad phrase on my part. What I mean is that I find the zerg more compelling, as a fictional construct, than the Tyranids. To my mind, the zerg can do everything the Tyranids can do (that is, be this unrelatable alien swarm of mindless consumption), but they also do quite a lot of other things as well, some of which I enjoy.

Es Arkajae · Apr 3, 2016

Genestealer cults and infestations provide just about the only character and variety to the Tyranids.

Tyran · Apr 3, 2016

Unhappy Anchovy said:
I would tend to agree that the Tyranids are overrated, both in terms of relative galactic power in 40k and, which is more important, as a fictional construct. I believe I am in the small and unpopular category, on SB, of people who think that the zerg are a better-constructed race of hive-mind alien vaguely insectoid killers than the Tyranids.

(Well, okay, the Tyranids are sometimes more dinosaur-like or even more crustacean-like, but then, this doesn't really look that much like a bug.)

Everything is overrated in terms of relative galactic power in 40k.

Sergeantbrother · Apr 3, 2016

Es Arkajae said:
Genestealer cults and infestations provide just about the only character and variety to the Tyranids.

My first 40K army was a Genestealer Cult, which I thought had quite s but if personality. I have long been sad that the Genestealer Cult was relegated to the dustbin with the creation of the Tyranids.

white_rabbit · Apr 3, 2016

Sergeantbrother said:
My first 40K army was a Genestealer Cult, which I thought had quite s but if personality. I have long been sad that the Genestealer Cult was relegated to the dustbin with the creation of the Tyranids.

You know they are back right? Rumours of a codex release as well.

Sergeantbrother · Apr 3, 2016

white_rabbit said:
You know they are back right? Rumours of a codex release as well.

Yes, I just recently learned that and I'm pretty excited.

pdmasta · Apr 3, 2016

Question. Do you guys think the lack of superweapons for the Tyranids really holds them back in Vs. debates? Everyone got it wrong btw, I didn't get mad at a debate I was in, I've been reading the spacebattles forums and reddit forums for Tyranids and there were so many claims of 'nids stomp' that I had to dig in.

If there were a planetary shield around a planet for example, or a massive shield around a base, such as a deathstar, could they penetrate it? Does the 40k universe have such shields that the tyranids are penetrating?

A quote from 6th Edition Tyranids Codex

"
Tyran’s defence lasers opened fire the moment the first bio-ships made orbit. The planet’s storm-wracked skies were split again and again by incandescent blasts as the base’s gunners desperately fended off the descending invaders. Then, just as the cooling systems of the defence lasers began to overheat, the invaders withdrew. Perhaps buoyed by false confidence, Magos Varnak ordered his small fleet to harry the withdrawing vessels, but this strategy soon proved folly. Penetrating the thick spore cloud that masked the alien fleet, the pursuing vessels discovered that fewer than a dozen bio-ships had been destroyed out of a fleet of several thousand. Having lured the cruisers away from Tyran, the hive fleet hungrily fell upon the Imperial vessels. The ancient cruisers lasted long enough to convey a warning to the Tyran outpost before leech-like pods gnawed through their hulls, unleashing hundreds of hungry aliens directly into their decks. The crew were slaughtered within minutes, leaving the doomed cruisers adrift in space. When the hive fleet returned to Tyran, the defence lasers could not hold the bio-ships back. Thousands of invaders descended on the world, and though the planet’s fortifications destroyed many, countless other warrior-organisms made it through the net of fire to reach Tyran Primus’ surface. Within the hour, the first invaders reached the base’s walls."

The lasers couldn't keep them back, I get it, but what if there were a planetary shield, it would have been hopeless no?

Tyran · Apr 3, 2016

pdmasta said:
Question. Do you guys think the lack of superweapons for the Tyranids really holds them back in Vs. debates? Everyone got it wrong btw, I didn't get mad at a debate I was in, I've been reading the spacebattles forums and reddit forums for Tyranids and there were so many claims of 'nids stomp' that I had to dig in.

If there were a planetary shield around a planet for example, or a massive shield around a base, such as a deathstar, could they penetrate it? Does the 40k universe have such shields that the tyranids are penetrating?

A quote from 6th Edition Tyranids Codex

"
Tyran’s defence lasers opened fire the moment the first bio-ships made orbit. The planet’s storm-wracked skies were split again and again by incandescent blasts as the base’s gunners desperately fended off the descending invaders. Then, just as the cooling systems of the defence lasers began to overheat, the invaders withdrew. Perhaps buoyed by false confidence, Magos Varnak ordered his small fleet to harry the withdrawing vessels, but this strategy soon proved folly. Penetrating the thick spore cloud that masked the alien fleet, the pursuing vessels discovered that fewer than a dozen bio-ships had been destroyed out of a fleet of several thousand. Having lured the cruisers away from Tyran, the hive fleet hungrily fell upon the Imperial vessels. The ancient cruisers lasted long enough to convey a warning to the Tyran outpost before leech-like pods gnawed through their hulls, unleashing hundreds of hungry aliens directly into their decks. The crew were slaughtered within minutes, leaving the doomed cruisers adrift in space. When the hive fleet returned to Tyran, the defence lasers could not hold the bio-ships back. Thousands of invaders descended on the world, and though the planet’s fortifications destroyed many, countless other warrior-organisms made it through the net of fire to reach Tyran Primus’ surface. Within the hour, the first invaders reached the base’s walls."

The lasers couldn't keep them back, I get it, but what if there were a planetary shield, it would have been hopeless no?

The Vong penetrated planetary shields and they also lacked super weapons. Hell even the Rebel Alliance penetrated planetary shields. The Death Start is trickier, boarding is probably the best way to take it out.

pdmasta · Apr 3, 2016

I do not believe there is any documented cannon evidence of any planetary SW shield being brought down by firepower that isn't a super weapon

Tyranids are overrated, do you agree?

pdmasta

Firaxxa

pdmasta

c'tan cat

SarinIsLove

white_rabbit

Shadow Cabal Berserker

Shifter

Hello World. :-)

c'tan cat

white_rabbit

Shadow Cabal Berserker

phazon

It's people all the way down. And nice curtains.

pdmasta

Satnav

Negadarkwing

white_rabbit

Shadow Cabal Berserker

Unhappy Anchovy

1 + 1 + 1 = 1

white_rabbit

Shadow Cabal Berserker

Unhappy Anchovy

1 + 1 + 1 = 1

Es Arkajae

God Emperor of Earth

Tyran

We Won

Sergeantbrother

white_rabbit

Shadow Cabal Berserker

Sergeantbrother

pdmasta

Tyran

We Won

pdmasta