Red Flag
Adviser (RP & Q)
Those lights are alcubierre bubbles that are actually a part of the Oblivion Star, and follow it wherever it goes.
-
The tagging system on SpaceBattles has been overhauled to make it more useful for organizing and filtering content. A new age of tags is upon us!
-
New Awards types are available now! Introducing the Golden Dice and Escalation Awards.
War of the Krork Thread II: The Age of Monsters (WH40K Quest)
- Thread starter Red Flag
- Start date
Those lights are alcubierre bubbles that are actually a part of the Oblivion Star, and follow it wherever it goes.
Nix Warden
Rock On James Wood. Rock On.
Huh. So what? We zap an enemy with a TP Gun, they are sent into the WSH, and are then killed by whatever forces we have going through them at the time? How would that even work? I mean we could be moving Warbands, Leviathans, Gargants ect, how would you calculate casualties that way?
That sounds worse.
Red Flag
Adviser (RP & Q)
High level WSH allows you to store Defense Forces inside it. So you zap an enemy with a TP Gun, and they land in front of the guns of the five Star Forts that you're keeping in there.
Oh yeah, it's worse. All of the motes in the Oblivion Star's halo are armed.
Nix Warden
Rock On James Wood. Rock On.
.....Exactly How MUCH Territory can the Oblivion Star + Halo cover?
Regardless of the answer that's freaking BS. That's like a Extremely High Level WSH Krork Defense Quadrant, that can move, with a Super Planetoid in the middle, and a Physical God using it as a uber.
Fucking Dragon.
Last edited:
Red Flag
Adviser (RP & Q)
Negligible. The halo has to go with it, so all of them together can still only exert superweapon effects over a few systems at a time, while the Star + halo can only be present at one place at a time. It's too slow for conquest.
Last edited:
Nix Warden
Rock On James Wood. Rock On.
.....God Damn. That thing is still some 300 KM larger then a Ultimate War World, just counting the actual Planetoid itself, and not it's 80K! Halo.
ArchAIngel
Dance with a nightmare, poi?
Throw enough Doomsday Devices at it and it'll die.
...Some Final Flashes would also help quite a bit, mind.
...Some Final Flashes would also help quite a bit, mind.
That entire halo is basically composed of the Dragon's most powerful weapons, so those 80,000 kilometers should be taken way more into account.
Orkoid Psychology
Red Flag
Adviser (RP & Q)
Gonna make a general post about Orkoid psychology, taking some of my old things and adding a bit of new, and threadmark it:
Psychologically, I find that Orks can be constructed as having a couple of traits that distinguish them from humanity.
Lack of Affective Empathy: They don't have it, whether for their own species, or for others. An Ork might seem to miss his drinking buddy who was killed in battle, but what he really misses is the fun times they had together, and does not actually miss that other Ork. Most aren't so good at cognitive empathy either, especially in battle.
Might Makes Right: This philosophy dominates Orkoid thinking. This severely curtails the ability of Orks to experience resentment, since resentment is based on the perception of unfair treatment, and unfairness is a pretty muted concept if everyone accepts that the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. This also causes Orks to attribute other positive traits to individuals who are strong; a strong Warboss will also be assumed to be smart and cunning until proven otherwise.
Compartmentalization: The Ork mind is heavily compartmentalized. Evil Sun Rising shows this with their Meks, whose basic Orkoid part that is shared with all other Orks overlaps with and sometimes gets overridden by the Mek part. Most Ork Boys (with some exceptions like Ghaz) have no ambitions but to continue to be Boyz; they are by and large satisfied with their lot in life. However, very successful Boyz will grow and become Nobs, upon which time Nob behaviors are unlocked that cause them to start acting their station, and so on up the ladder.
Now either by accident or by design, some Orks unlock the later levels earlier than normal. Occasionally you'll have a Boy or Nob who aspires to be Warboss, and Ghazghkull's religious delusions are an extreme example that we would retroactively interpret as Beast-like ambitions. Iwfan's depiction of Skullkrak wanting a Waaagh!!! that doesn't collapse upon the death of its leader would be case of early emergence Krork-thought.
Fun: All Orks just want to have fun. Death is only bad because it puts a temporary stop to the fun, and if they had fun in the process then it was worth it. Different Orks have different ideas about what is fun. Boyz think fun is charging in a big mob screaming at the tops of their lungs. Speed Freeks think fun is racing around at high speeds. Meks think fun is building some fancy contraption that will outdo the other Meks. Warbosses think fun is winning big battles. Combined with the lack of empathy, this allows Ork morale to hold against casualty levels that would balk a human force, so long as the individual Orks comprising the force are still convinced that there's a good chance to get some fun out of the affair. Meks who normally have trouble finding teleportation volunteers will be swamped with them when the destination is into arms reach with the enemy.
If an Ork horde wins a fight with massive casualties, the boss will actually be lauded by the survivors for being able to lead them to such a good fight. When humans build fortresses, Orks don't consider the idea that the fortress is meant to deter them; they think it's an invitation being extended to them to come over and have a good war, because they don't grok the idea that humans might not want to fight.
The Krork just graft a victory priority over this. Winning is automatically the most 'fun', therefore whatever action will result in more winning is the best course of action. Skullkrak is the most competent leader without a doubt, having fought this long and having access to the most relevant memories for that. Therefore, since following him will be more likely to result in victory, he is to be followed without question.
Other Species: While Orks do not hate non-Orkoids, they will never accept the commands of a non-Ork. Even daemonic possession generally doesn't work well, and a possessed Ork usually just looks like an Ork that argues with itself a lot. Rare cases of Orks working on Rogue Trader crews are possible because the Rogue Trader has convinced a particularly dim Ork Boy that it is actually the Ork who is in charge. From the Ork's perspective, it certainly does appear that the Rogue Trader is ferrying them to fights and giving them first pick of the loot, and since an Ork Boy does not have any higher ambitions it is possible for it to be mislead on this.
These traits seem to be sufficient to explain Ork behavior. Orks don't follow the boss out of loyalty, but rather because a strong boss is assumed to also be smart, and therefore he can lead them to the best fights that will result in the most fun for everyone. By the same token, since the boss is so smart and cunning, opposing the boss will result in less or no fun, unless said boss proves to be incompetent. Iwfan's depiction of Orkken / Skarsnik's rationale for not betraying Skullkrak is accurate to this; they didn't continue to follow because they are personally loyal to him, but rather because Skullkrak affords them the best opportunity that they can see to do what they like. When the boss needs to inspire the boyz, he finds some unfortunate patsy who offended him in some minor way and gives them a beating. In humans this would engender animosity, but Orks accept that it is the boss's right to smack whoever he wants whenever he wants, and watching it happen reinforces the idea that the boss cannot be opposed. Infighting ensues when there is uncertainty as to who is the strongest (and therefore smartest and most cunning), but sometimes when a boss has a clear second-in-command, when the boss dies every Ork will automatically look to them for leadership. Waaagh!!!s that run out of targets break apart because following the boss is no longer fun, and individual Orks begin to think that striking out on their own will result in more fun.
This is also why beating the boss in a duel is the most surefire way to unbalance an Ork force. Orks follow the boss because he is the strongest, and when the boss is killed in a duel, his killer must therefore be even stronger (and smarter and more cunning). With no loyalty or empathy to hold them together, each individual Ork considers that it is impossible for it to oppose the boss's killer. Since following a member of another species is out of the question, this leads to a mass rout that lasts until some other Ork shows up that can convince everyone that they are stronger.
Orkish and ancestral Krorkish are extremely simple on the surface in that there is barely any grammar and some words can be placed in any order and still have the meaning. You can say 'Burrghus owns humie' or 'owns humie Burrghus' or 'humie owns Burrghus', and all of them mean 'this human belongs to Burrghus'. You can arrange 'Bad Moonz', 'Flashtoof', and 'Waaagh! Skullkrak' in any order, and the resulting sentence always means 'Flashtoof is a member of the Bad Moonz clan, in service to Waaagh! Skullkrak'.
However, this is underlaid by the fact that Ork words have a hierarchy, which is instinctively understood by every greenskin. If you try to convey the idea that a human owns Burrghus with this language, you can't, and as far as the Orks are concerned that doesn't make sense anyway so nobody needs to talk about it. Likewise trying to say that Skullkrak follows Grimgul can't be done if the greenskin that you're speaking to knows that Skullkrak is the boss of Grimgul, because the language automatically gives Skullkrak's name a place in the hierarchy above Grimgul's. In cases where the hierarchy is in doubt this can get confusing, such as with disputes over Gork and Mork, which is why fights break out so often over this topic.
Psychologically, I find that Orks can be constructed as having a couple of traits that distinguish them from humanity.
Lack of Affective Empathy: They don't have it, whether for their own species, or for others. An Ork might seem to miss his drinking buddy who was killed in battle, but what he really misses is the fun times they had together, and does not actually miss that other Ork. Most aren't so good at cognitive empathy either, especially in battle.
Might Makes Right: This philosophy dominates Orkoid thinking. This severely curtails the ability of Orks to experience resentment, since resentment is based on the perception of unfair treatment, and unfairness is a pretty muted concept if everyone accepts that the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. This also causes Orks to attribute other positive traits to individuals who are strong; a strong Warboss will also be assumed to be smart and cunning until proven otherwise.
Compartmentalization: The Ork mind is heavily compartmentalized. Evil Sun Rising shows this with their Meks, whose basic Orkoid part that is shared with all other Orks overlaps with and sometimes gets overridden by the Mek part. Most Ork Boys (with some exceptions like Ghaz) have no ambitions but to continue to be Boyz; they are by and large satisfied with their lot in life. However, very successful Boyz will grow and become Nobs, upon which time Nob behaviors are unlocked that cause them to start acting their station, and so on up the ladder.
Now either by accident or by design, some Orks unlock the later levels earlier than normal. Occasionally you'll have a Boy or Nob who aspires to be Warboss, and Ghazghkull's religious delusions are an extreme example that we would retroactively interpret as Beast-like ambitions. Iwfan's depiction of Skullkrak wanting a Waaagh!!! that doesn't collapse upon the death of its leader would be case of early emergence Krork-thought.
Fun: All Orks just want to have fun. Death is only bad because it puts a temporary stop to the fun, and if they had fun in the process then it was worth it. Different Orks have different ideas about what is fun. Boyz think fun is charging in a big mob screaming at the tops of their lungs. Speed Freeks think fun is racing around at high speeds. Meks think fun is building some fancy contraption that will outdo the other Meks. Warbosses think fun is winning big battles. Combined with the lack of empathy, this allows Ork morale to hold against casualty levels that would balk a human force, so long as the individual Orks comprising the force are still convinced that there's a good chance to get some fun out of the affair. Meks who normally have trouble finding teleportation volunteers will be swamped with them when the destination is into arms reach with the enemy.
If an Ork horde wins a fight with massive casualties, the boss will actually be lauded by the survivors for being able to lead them to such a good fight. When humans build fortresses, Orks don't consider the idea that the fortress is meant to deter them; they think it's an invitation being extended to them to come over and have a good war, because they don't grok the idea that humans might not want to fight.
The Krork just graft a victory priority over this. Winning is automatically the most 'fun', therefore whatever action will result in more winning is the best course of action. Skullkrak is the most competent leader without a doubt, having fought this long and having access to the most relevant memories for that. Therefore, since following him will be more likely to result in victory, he is to be followed without question.
Other Species: While Orks do not hate non-Orkoids, they will never accept the commands of a non-Ork. Even daemonic possession generally doesn't work well, and a possessed Ork usually just looks like an Ork that argues with itself a lot. Rare cases of Orks working on Rogue Trader crews are possible because the Rogue Trader has convinced a particularly dim Ork Boy that it is actually the Ork who is in charge. From the Ork's perspective, it certainly does appear that the Rogue Trader is ferrying them to fights and giving them first pick of the loot, and since an Ork Boy does not have any higher ambitions it is possible for it to be mislead on this.
These traits seem to be sufficient to explain Ork behavior. Orks don't follow the boss out of loyalty, but rather because a strong boss is assumed to also be smart, and therefore he can lead them to the best fights that will result in the most fun for everyone. By the same token, since the boss is so smart and cunning, opposing the boss will result in less or no fun, unless said boss proves to be incompetent. Iwfan's depiction of Orkken / Skarsnik's rationale for not betraying Skullkrak is accurate to this; they didn't continue to follow because they are personally loyal to him, but rather because Skullkrak affords them the best opportunity that they can see to do what they like. When the boss needs to inspire the boyz, he finds some unfortunate patsy who offended him in some minor way and gives them a beating. In humans this would engender animosity, but Orks accept that it is the boss's right to smack whoever he wants whenever he wants, and watching it happen reinforces the idea that the boss cannot be opposed. Infighting ensues when there is uncertainty as to who is the strongest (and therefore smartest and most cunning), but sometimes when a boss has a clear second-in-command, when the boss dies every Ork will automatically look to them for leadership. Waaagh!!!s that run out of targets break apart because following the boss is no longer fun, and individual Orks begin to think that striking out on their own will result in more fun.
This is also why beating the boss in a duel is the most surefire way to unbalance an Ork force. Orks follow the boss because he is the strongest, and when the boss is killed in a duel, his killer must therefore be even stronger (and smarter and more cunning). With no loyalty or empathy to hold them together, each individual Ork considers that it is impossible for it to oppose the boss's killer. Since following a member of another species is out of the question, this leads to a mass rout that lasts until some other Ork shows up that can convince everyone that they are stronger.
---
Orkish and ancestral Krorkish are extremely simple on the surface in that there is barely any grammar and some words can be placed in any order and still have the meaning. You can say 'Burrghus owns humie' or 'owns humie Burrghus' or 'humie owns Burrghus', and all of them mean 'this human belongs to Burrghus'. You can arrange 'Bad Moonz', 'Flashtoof', and 'Waaagh! Skullkrak' in any order, and the resulting sentence always means 'Flashtoof is a member of the Bad Moonz clan, in service to Waaagh! Skullkrak'.
However, this is underlaid by the fact that Ork words have a hierarchy, which is instinctively understood by every greenskin. If you try to convey the idea that a human owns Burrghus with this language, you can't, and as far as the Orks are concerned that doesn't make sense anyway so nobody needs to talk about it. Likewise trying to say that Skullkrak follows Grimgul can't be done if the greenskin that you're speaking to knows that Skullkrak is the boss of Grimgul, because the language automatically gives Skullkrak's name a place in the hierarchy above Grimgul's. In cases where the hierarchy is in doubt this can get confusing, such as with disputes over Gork and Mork, which is why fights break out so often over this topic.
Last edited:
CrossyCross
The Face Tenryuu Fears
How the fuck are the bubbles armed?!
I'm pretty sure the Oblivion Star is at a scale of power where we'd need to send all of our Mag 13 fleethordes with all planetoids and a heavy tilt of war actions aimed precisely at that monstrosity just to kill it. And then we'd lose half of all our shits anyway.
Last edited:
Nix Warden
Rock On James Wood. Rock On.
Red Flag
Adviser (RP & Q)
They're nested Alcubierre bubbles with bigger volumes than their surface area would indicate. One layer drops, and while it might have only a millimeter in diameter between it and the next layer, releases a ton of weapons that fire everything. Then the next innermost layer becomes the outer shell. This does mean the Oblivion Star's halo can be depleted by very large or repeated battles, and the bubbles themselves can be attacked by your fleet using gravitech.
Necrons also use Alcubierre technology. They used this for FTL before they had Dolmens / to supplement Dolmens where no gates exist, and some of their ships use a bubble for propulsion. A bubble is kept inside and coupled to the hull, and when it moves it drags the ship along with it. This is how many Necron ships don't have engine plumes, though their applications are much less advanced than the Dragon's.
Last edited:
CrossyCross
The Face Tenryuu Fears
...this is some really fucking freaky techno-bullshit I don't even.
Ugh, and I guess this means we want our gravitech weapons to be matured across the fleet before we even try a gander at this.
CrossyCross
The Face Tenryuu Fears
I can imagine a situation that forces it into battle. Go Concentrate and Breakthrough while targeting a major Dragon Realm for example (hello, Solar!), and it's damn near certain to appear.
The issue is, well, it's may not be invincible, but it's one of the closest things to it. And the Dragon is waiting inside to fuck our shit up after his ride explodes.
Nix Warden
Rock On James Wood. Rock On.
To be perfectly honest, assuming The Beast doesn't deathspiral and stays in play, he's the most likely faction to actually break the Oblivion Star and Kill/Wound the Dragon. All that Psyker/Deamon from his units and character actions? Yeah that could do it, but he would need the rest of his demons, and Planetoids of his own.
Basically End Game Beast is the best counter, as far as there is one, to The Dragon.
Basically End Game Beast is the best counter, as far as there is one, to The Dragon.
Last edited:
Alectai
Mercenary Captain
Honestly, I don't see being able to throw down against the Oblivion Star with anything less than a fleet of War Worlds with Binding Fields and Doomsday Devices, not without some serious fucking shenanigans.
CrossyCross
The Face Tenryuu Fears
Yes, I rather said that already.
Remember my mag 13 fleethordes with planetoids setup? I fully expect that to get shafted hard in terms of casualties even in a victory. The Oblivion Star is just too ridiculous, what with 80k kilomeeters of superweapon-armed Halo as the thing you have to go through before actually getting to the core.
By the sounds of it, we'd have to lose said fleethordes multiple times across several battles as we have to whittle the damned thing down. I don't even.
Assuming a theoretical Beast with the same mag 13 with planetoids setup, that's a recipients of about...17.
Add in Waaagh! at full OAW with enough Icon and he has, flat out, Magnitude 22 Waaagh. DUe to a lack of re-rolls he'd probably not use equal magnitude actions, so we're speaking Mag 21 Final Flashes and/or Great Wurk planet killers.
ArchAIngel
Dance with a nightmare, poi?
We'd need more gravtech.
We'd need a LOT more gravtech.
Grav guns on Literally All The Things.
We'd need a LOT more gravtech.
Grav guns on Literally All The Things.
CrossyCross
The Face Tenryuu Fears
I'd settle for Superhighway right now, really. And just, like, clear our goddamned backyard of all this shitnuggetry. Maybe not the Eye of Terror, Terra, and the Solar Dragon Realms, but everything else needs to REEEEEEE GET OUT until we have a third of the galaxy firmly secure in place.
So to speak, Tempestus, Obscurus, Pacificus and Solar need to be secured. Then we can start nibbling on SW Ultima and NW Ultima. Keep that twisted sort of crescent shape going on gradually covering the galaxy like a moon going through phases.
Nix Warden
Rock On James Wood. Rock On.
The good news is that, like all Dragon Planetoids, each of them are very much a Quality over Quantity type deal, and if the Star was broken well and truly, it would probably never be truly replicated. Or if it did it would NOT be a quick and easy task.
Our best option personally, would be War Worlds with World Carrier, and every Defensive Planetoid Upgrade for them.
Also doesn't the Beast not really care about backlash and instead willing uses as high a Magnitude of Character Actions as he can? I think Red Flag said that before but I'm not sure.
Can't forget the Beasts secondary Waaagh! Pool or that unspent Re-Rolls can be used to increase Waaagh! Magnitude.
So that in mind, he could deliberately use Lowish Magnitude Actions, spend the rerolls to increase his Waaagh! Magnitude several levels, and then bring out the Big Guns in Round 2 or 3.